Wimbledon 2024 Men's Final - Alcaraz v. Djokovic

[kskate2]

Question. If you win a title at any level at Wimbledon, will that make you an honorary member of the club?

No. Only Singles champions are granted lifetime honorary club membership. The other winners from that year can attend the Wimby ball, but will not be granted club access.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

If I remember correctly, all players who make it at least to one quarterfinal in singles is granted lifetime membership to the Last 8 club.

 

[kskate2]

If I remember correctly, all players who make it at least to one quarterfinal in singles is granted lifetime membership to the Last 8 club.

What the last 8 club does is grant them lifetime tickets.

The tournament's prestigious Last 8 Club, which guarantees tickets to the event for life. This honour is reserved for all players who reach the singles quarterfinals or doubles semifinals at the tournament.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I had trouble getting onto TF tried many times to pop in and congratulate Alcaraz on a wonderful performance in defending his Wimbledon title and winning his 4th Gram Slam title.
To me the hardest thing is defending your GS title, not only did Alcaraz defend his title, he also completed one of the toughest and hardest achievements in our game the Channel Slam!
Well done young man you are a delight to watch!
To Don and Rob, you know I didnt think Novak should have played at Wimbledon, to make the final and compete at 37 years old, coming off surgery, is a testament in itself.

 

[Moxie]

I think this is right:

Carlos has just won his 4th Major, at age 21 and a couple of months. (I know that part's right.)

At his age, Rafa had 3, Novak had 1, and Roger had 0.

Think about that.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

I think this is right:

Carlos has just won his 4th Major, at age 21 and a couple of months. (I know that part's right.)

At his age, Rafa had 3, Novak had 1, and Roger had 0.

Think about that.

Carlos is great. I just think Rafa was better at that age. He was more consistent, as evidenced by him having more career titles than Carlos at that age. Also, keep in mind, Rafa went up against prime-Fed at that age. Otherwise, he may have 5 slams at that age.

Plus, Carlos tends to have lapses of concentration at times. Like the 40-0 lead when he was serving for the match. Rafa would never lose 5 points in a row in that situation like Carlos did today.

My rankings of age 21

1. Rafa
2. Carlos
3. Novak
4. Roger

 

[tossip]

I think this is right:

Carlos has just won his 4th Major, at age 21 and a couple of months. (I know that part's right.)

At his age, Rafa had 3, Novak had 1, and Roger had 0.

Think about that.

Where are Rublev,Tittypus,and Zverev.They were considered the next generation but have failed at winning grand slams.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think this is right:

Carlos has just won his 4th Major, at age 21 and a couple of months. (I know that part's right.)

At his age, Rafa had 3, Novak had 1, and Roger had 0.

Think about that.

I think it's a great achievement..too bad Carlos hadn't faced Roger or played Rafa enough times to really answer those What if questions?

 

[the AntiPusher]

I see Novak has lost 5 grand slam finals in straight sets...I'm curious how many times Rafa and Roger have lost in straight sets in the finals

 

[Moxie]

Carlos is great. I just think Rafa was better at that age. He was more consistent, as evidenced by him having more career titles than Carlos at that age. Also, keep in mind, Rafa went up against prime-Fed at that age. Otherwise, he may have 5 slams at that age.

Plus, Carlos tends to have lapses of concentration at times. Like the 40-0 lead when he was serving for the match. Rafa would never lose 5 points in a row in that situation like Carlos did today.

My rankings of age 21

1. Rafa
2. Carlos
3. Novak
4. Roger

I'm definitely not saying that he's better than Rafa at his age. (Despite the fact that @El Dude thinks my head is being turned. LOL.) I was just thinking of the Majors count timeline for the 3 of them, and it surprised me.

You said something the other day that I wanted to comment on, but the thread moved on, but it was to do with Rafa's focus. You said it was because he already knew he was great, which I disagree with. Toni actually pounded into him that he wasn't so great, just to make work hard. Rafa simply has an innate level of focus and intensity that I haven't seen matched in the men's game for a long time. I say "innate" because Toni has said that he could work with him on whatever bit of tennis they did when Rafa was 4, and that Rafa could stay focused on it for about 20 minutes, which Toni said was a really long time for that age. He said that's when he knew he had good focus.

Yes, Carlos can lose focus and drop his intensity. Novak can do that, too. @nehmeth used to refer to that as the "Nolecoaster" for his fans.

 

[El Dude]

I see Novak has lost 5 grand slam finals in straight sets...I'm curious how many times Rafa and Roger have lost in straight sets in the finals

FINE.

For both, its just once - for Rafa the 2019 AO to Novak (6-3 6-2 6-3). For Roger, the 2008 RG to Rafa (6-1 6-3 6-0)

 

[El Dude]

Interesting question, re: Rafa in 2007 vs Carlos in 2024. They were born within a month of each other (17 years apart!), so I think we can compare those seasons to each other.

In terms of pure accomplishments through those years (with the caveat that Carlos isn't done with 2024):

RAFA: 3-2 in Slam Finals (plus 2 QF), two TF semifinals, 9 Masters, 23 overall titles.
CARLOS: 4-0 in Slam Finals (plus 3 SF, 3 QF), 1 TF semifinal, 5 Masters, 15 overall titles.

On the surface, Alcaraz's record is better, and the notable edge Rafa had was in +8 smaller titles, mostly ATP 500s. In my PEP system, Alcaraz is at 88, Rafa was at 109 (for comparison's sake, career totals for Marat Safin are 86, Gustavo Kuerten 90, Thomas Muster 107). Alcaraz probably won't quite bridge the gap, as he'd have to win the US Open and several other titles (but it is possible; certainly he's going to finish the season with close to 100 PEP, if not more).

As far as ability, it is harder to say. My guess is that 2007 Rafa would have handily beat Carlos on clay, but Carlos would have handily beat him on grass. Rafa would have had the edge on slower hards, Carlos on medium to fast.

My sense is that Carlos is a more complete player than Rafa at the same age. Rafa was ungodly on clay, approaching great elsewhere, and then filled out in 2008 as an all-courter. But I do think there's still a big gap between peak Rafa on clay and Carlos anywhere, but that could be said about just about any player.

 

[El Dude]

The implication here serves another point Moxie has made: that in terms of actual on-court ability, Alcaraz is probably more comparable to Novak or Roger than he is to Rafa. Rafa was a demigod on clay, a superhero on slow hards, a hero on grass and fast hards. Roger was a superhero on grass and hards, a hero on clay. Novak was a superhero everywhere. Carlos seems in the mold of Novak: a superhero everywhere.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Interesting question, re: Rafa in 2007 vs Carlos in 2024. They were born within a month of each other (17 years apart!), so I think we can compare those seasons to each other.

In terms of pure accomplishments through those years (with the caveat that Carlos isn't done with 2024):

RAFA: 3-2 in Slam Finals (plus 2 QF), two TF semifinals, 9 Masters, 23 overall titles.
CARLOS: 4-0 in Slam Finals (plus 3 SF, 3 QF), 1 TF semifinal, 5 Masters, 15 overall titles.

On the surface, Alcaraz's record is better, and the notable edge Rafa had was in +8 smaller titles, mostly ATP 500s. In my PEP system, Alcaraz is at 88, Rafa was at 109 (for comparison's sake, career totals for Marat Safin are 86, Gustavo Kuerten 90, Thomas Muster 107). Alcaraz probably won't quite bridge the gap, as he'd have to win the US Open and several other titles (but it is possible; certainly he's going to finish the season with close to 100 PEP, if not more).

As far as ability, it is harder to say. My guess is that 2007 Rafa would have handily beat Carlos on clay, but Carlos would have handily beat him on grass. Rafa would have had the edge on slower hards, Carlos on medium to fast.

My sense is that Carlos is a more complete player than Rafa at the same age. Rafa was ungodly on clay, approaching great elsewhere, and then filled out in 2008 as an all-courter. But I do think there's still a big gap between peak Rafa on clay and Carlos anywhere, but that could be said about just about any player.

Thanks El Dude,

I think Carlos is more a offensive player than Rafa at the same age, also Carlos volley skills are more superior at the same age.

 

[Moxie]

FINE.

For both, its just once - for Rafa the 2019 AO to Novak (6-3 6-2 6-3). For Roger, the 2008 RG to Rafa (6-1 6-3 6-0)

I looked up the Djokovic losses in 3:

2007 USO v Federer
2013 Wimb v Murray
2020 FO v Nadal
2021 USO v Medvedev
2024 Wimb v Alcaraz

 

[Moxie]

Interesting question, re: Rafa in 2007 vs Carlos in 2024. They were born within a month of each other (17 years apart!), so I think we can compare those seasons to each other.

I think it's clear you mean "career through..." x year, at the same age.

In terms of pure accomplishments through those years (with the caveat that Carlos isn't done with 2024):

RAFA: 3-2 in Slam Finals (plus 2 QF), two TF semifinals, 9 Masters, 23 overall titles.
CARLOS: 4-0 in Slam Finals (plus 3 SF, 3 QF), 1 TF semifinal, 5 Masters, 15 overall titles.

On the surface, Alcaraz's record is better, and the notable edge Rafa had was in +8 smaller titles, mostly ATP 500s. In my PEP system, Alcaraz is at 88, Rafa was at 109 (for comparison's sake, career totals for Marat Safin are 86, Gustavo Kuerten 90, Thomas Muster 107). Alcaraz probably won't quite bridge the gap, as he'd have to win the US Open and several other titles (but it is possible; certainly he's going to finish the season with close to 100 PEP, if not more).

This part confuses me. Not being combative, just generally confused. You say, "On the surface, Alcaraz's record is better..." Is that because of Slam results and TF results? And then you say your PEP is 109 v. 88 in favor of Rafa. You just lose me a bit, here. Sorry to not exactly get it, but can you illuminate?

As far as ability, it is harder to say. My guess is that 2007 Rafa would have handily beat Carlos on clay, but Carlos would have handily beat him on grass. Rafa would have had the edge on slower hards, Carlos on medium to fast.

I would mention that 2007 Rafa made the finals of Wimbledon and took Roger to 5, so I wouldn't say that Carlos could be projected to have "handily beaten" him that year, in the imaginary world where they are both 22. Otherwise, you're saying that Carlos is much better than Roger on grass.

My sense is that Carlos is a more complete player than Rafa at the same age. Rafa was ungodly on clay, approaching great elsewhere, and then filled out in 2008 as an all-courter. But I do think there's still a big gap between peak Rafa on clay and Carlos anywhere, but that could be said about just about any player.

I think Carlos is a more complete player than any of them at this age. He's got lots of tools, like Roger, but he's handled them better from younger. He's got a champion's mentality and ability to raise his game. As to peak Rafa on clay...I think you're right that that's hard to reach. There were years when it didn't even look like he was playing the same game as anyone else. And many years when he looked beatable, and still wasn't.

 

[Fiero425]

I'm definitely not saying that he's better than Rafa at his age. (Despite the fact that @El Dude thinks my head is being turned. LOL.) I was just thinking of the Majors count timeline for the 3 of them, and it surprised me.

You said something the other day that I wanted to comment on, but the thread moved on, but it was to do with Rafa's focus. You said it was because he already knew he was great, which I disagree with. Toni actually pounded into him that he wasn't so great, just to make work hard. Rafa simply has an innate level of focus and intensity that I haven't seen matched in the men's game for a long time. I say "innate" because Toni has said that he could work with him on whatever bit of tennis they did when Rafa was 4, and that Rafa could stay focused on it for about 20 minutes, which Toni said was a really long time for that age. He said that's when he knew he had good focus.

Yes, Carlos can lose focus and drop his intensity. Novak can do that, too. @nehmeth used to refer to that as the "Nolecoaster" for his fans.

I have to give Rafa all kinds of props for his tenacity to not give up when on the ropes! A # of other players can say the same for themselves, but Nadal obviously is on another level! It's what makes me sick to see him take over Borg's record at the FO; TWICE over! He's a freak of nature; so was Bjorn w/ his low pulse rate at 40! Djokovic has become the "artisan" of this gen. of players; Lendl B4 him! They worked hard to get better until they defeated the top echelon and supplanted them! Lendl dealt w/ Borg, Connors, & McEnroe! Djokovic had to deal w/ even more w/ Fedal, Murray, Wawrinka, & now Alcaraz & Sinner!

 

[Fiero425]

I think it's clear you mean "career through..." x year, at the same age.

This part confuses me. Not being combative, just generally confused. You say, "On the surface, Alcaraz's record is better..." Is that because of Slam results and TF results? And then you say your PEP is 109 v. 88 in favor of Rafa. You just lose me a bit, here. Sorry to not exactly get it, but can you illuminate?

I would mention that 2007 Rafa made the finals of Wimbledon and took Roger to 5, so I wouldn't say that Carlos could be projected to have "handily beaten" him that year, in the imaginary world where they are both 22. Otherwise, you're saying that Carlos is much better than Roger on grass.

I think Carlos is a more complete player than any of them at this age. He's got lots of tools, like Roger, but he's handled them better from younger. He's got a champion's mentality and ability to raise his game. As to peak Rafa on clay...I think you're right that that's hard to reach. There were years when it didn't even look like he was playing the same game as anyone else. And many years when he looked beatable, and still wasn't.

It's obvious Alcaraz has an early start of brilliance unmatched by any player this generation or in the past in Open Tennis! He's ahead of the game w/ early success at 3 Majors on 3 different surfaces! Rafa was woefully behind getting his 1st Wimbledon, USO, & AO much later while getting fat on early clay success in Paris!

 

[Moxie]

The implication here serves another point Moxie has made: that in terms of actual on-court ability, Alcaraz is probably more comparable to Novak or Roger than he is to Rafa. Rafa was a demigod on clay, a superhero on slow hards, a hero on grass and fast hards. Roger was a superhero on grass and hards, a hero on clay. Novak was a superhero everywhere. Carlos seems in the mold of Novak: a superhero everywhere.

Ha! Now you've fallen in love with all of my convincing you that comparisons to Alcaraz and Nadal are somewhat superficial, and have found a way to make Nadal third on the list, once again. You sneaky bastard!

It took Novak a long time to conquer all courts. And "superhero" status on all came in the waning light of others. Carlitos, however, has jumped into the express lane.

But, hey, you stand on the shoulders of others. The reason that Alcaraz is able to envision this game he has is because of Roger, Rafa and Novak. IMO.

 

[Moxie]

It's obvious Alcaraz has an early start of brilliance unmatched by any player this generation or in the past in Open Tennis! He's ahead of the game w/ early success at 3 Majors on 3 different surfaces! Rafa was woefully behind getting his 1st Wimbledon, USO, & AO much later while getting fat on early clay success in Paris!

"Woefully" behind? He had Federer in front of him, at his peak. He won Wimbledon at barely 22. AO also at 22. And the USO at 25. I don't think anyone would call that "woeful."

Lest this post gets moved to the Fedalovic wars, yes, Alcaraz has 3 Majors on 3 surfaces. He's one Australian Open away from the career slam...at 21. Nadal is the youngest to have won it in the Open Era, at 25. It seems impossible that Alcaraz won't break that record.