Wimbledon 2024 Men's Final - Alcaraz v. Djokovic

[the AntiPusher]

FINE.

For both, its just once - for Rafa the 2019 AO to Novak (6-3 6-2 6-3). For Roger, the 2008 RG to Rafa (6-1 6-3 6-0)

I remember both matches. I couldnt recall any other finals that they had lost straight sets.Thanks

 

[El Dude]

I think it's clear you mean "career through..." x year, at the same age.

Yes.

This part confuses me. Not being combative, just generally confused. You say, "On the surface, Alcaraz's record is better..." Is that because of Slam results and TF results? And then you say your PEP is 109 v. 88 in favor of Rafa. You just lose me a bit, here. Sorry to not exactly get it, but can you illuminate?

Well, I did say "on the surface," which means at first glance because of the +1 Slam, more deep runs at Slams. And remember, as I said, that PEP is for right now, not the full 2024 season. Either way, they're very close.

I would mention that 2007 Rafa made the finals of Wimbledon and took Roger to 5, so I wouldn't say that Carlos could be projected to have "handily beaten" him that year, in the imaginary world where they are both 22. Otherwise, you're saying that Carlos is much better than Roger on grass.

Not much, but better, imo. Part of the closeness of that 2007 Wimbledon was because Rafa was a bad match-up for Roger. Alcaraz has already beaten Novak twice at Wimbledon, and while we can make excuses for Novak this year, last he was in great form. Now I'm not saying that Alcaraz is as good on grass now as Rafa was in 2008-10, but I do give him the edge over Rafa before (and after) that. And part of Rafa's surge on grass was "beating Roger." I think Alcaraz is more, "I love playing on grass!"

I think Carlos is a more complete player than any of them at this age. He's got lots of tools, like Roger, but he's handled them better from younger. He's got a champion's mentality and ability to raise his game. As to peak Rafa on clay...I think you're right that that's hard to reach. There were years when it didn't even look like he was playing the same game as anyone else. And many years when he looked beatable, and still wasn't.

Yup.

 

[El Dude]

Ha! Now you've fallen in love with all of my convincing you that comparisons to Alcaraz and Nadal are somewhat superficial, and have found a way to make Nadal third on the list, once again. You sneaky bastard!

Moxie...where did you get that idea? I didn't say that, just pointing out that Alcaraz looks to be more balanced - like Novak. Rafa was better than everyone else on clay, but not as good as Novak or Roger on hards - as far as career accomplishments go, and probably peak level. Is that not true? That doesn't mean he was third. Or as I put it before, if we split them into different players by court type, "Rafa on clay" is the best, but then you have Roger and Novak on grass and hards in some order as 2-5, then probably Rafa on hards, Novak on clay, Rafa on grass, Roger on clay last (and Roger was really good on clay...meaning, they were all great everywhere, just relative greatness).

The sum total of all that makes it complex and hard to line up. I maintain my position that Novak gets the "first among near equals" title, but still don't feel comfortable ranking Roger or Rafa as the clear #2. They're coeval, in my mind.

It took Novak a long time to conquer all courts. And "superhero" status on all came in the waning light of others. Carlitos, however, has jumped into the express lane.

But, hey, you stand on the shoulders of others. The reason that Alcaraz is able to envision this game he has is because of Roger, Rafa and Novak. IMO.

Yes, good point. He's the child of the Big Three.

 

[Fiero425]

I remember both matches. I couldnt recall any other finals that they had lost straight sets.Thanks

Is it really that important at this stage? Djokovic probably shouldn't have even been in the final but for a favorable draw & upsets! It happens!

 

[Moxie]

Not much, but better, imo. Part of the closeness of that 2007 Wimbledon was because Rafa was a bad match-up for Roger. Alcaraz has already beaten Novak twice at Wimbledon, and while we can make excuses for Novak this year, last he was in great form. Now I'm not saying that Alcaraz is as good on grass now as Rafa was in 2008-10, but I do give him the edge over Rafa before (and after) that. And part of Rafa's surge on grass was "beating Roger." I think Alcaraz is more, "I love playing on grass!"

You're arguing two different things. You're dismissing that Rafa came close to Roger in 2007, given Roger's prowess on grass, and calling it a bad match-up. That was Rafa at 21 and Roger at 25. Roger with 8 Wimbledon titles, in the end. Then you say, with no transition, that Alcaraz has already beaten Novak twice at W, but that's when Alcaraz was 20 and 21, and Novak 36 and 37. How is that comparable?

Look, I know you're making a leap to compare Charlie with Rafa in fantasy tennis, but I think you have to try harder to compare apples to apples. You may say that Alcaraz has a game that more suits grass than Rafa's, but Rafa has proven himself on grass, against the greatest grass courter in the men's game. He also wanted to win at Wimbledon more than anything, so you can't just say that Alcaraz loves it more.

Also, did you just say that Alcaraz is better on grass than Roger?

 

[Moxie]

Is it really that important at this stage? Djokovic probably shouldn't have even been in the final but for a favorable draw & upsets! It happens!

So, is he embarrassing himself at this stage, as you said Roger was? Time to retire?

 

[El Dude]

You're arguing two different things. You're dismissing that Rafa came close to Roger in 2007, given Roger's prowess on grass, and calling it a bad match-up. That was Rafa at 21 and Roger at 25. Roger with 8 Wimbledon titles, in the end. Then you say, with no transition, that Alcaraz has already beaten Novak twice at W, but that's when Alcaraz was 20 and 21, and Novak 36 and 37. How is that comparable?

Look, I know you're making a leap to compare Charlie with Rafa in fantasy tennis, but I think you have to try harder to compare apples to apples. You may say that Alcaraz has a game that more suits grass than Rafa's, but Rafa has proven himself on grass, against the greatest grass courter in the men's game. He also wanted to win at Wimbledon more than anything, so you can't just say that Alcaraz loves it more.

Also, did you just say that Alcaraz is better on grass than Roger?

Why are you so crabby? Are we in Moxie-looking-for-a-fight-mode?

I'm not dismissing Rafa's grass performance in 2006-07. My point about the match-up wasn't age, it was their play styles. It is well known that Rafa was a bad match-up for Roger.

As for Novak, he cleaned up last year - and was a very young 36. Carlos still beat him, and destroyed him this year. Of course that isn't the same thing as Roger in the Aughties, but still impressive.

Ultimately we cannot know who was better on grass, Rafa in 2007 or Carlos in 2024, so we're kind of arguing an unknowable thing. I don't really feel all that strongly about it, though am impressed with what Alcaraz has done.

And no, I didn't say Alcaraz is better on grass than Roger. Not sure where you got that.

 

[El Dude]

Here's a fun one: Alcaraz joins Borg as the only two players to win Wimbledon twice before turning 22.

 

[Fiero425]

So, is he embarrassing himself at this stage, as you said Roger was? Time to retire?

You're kidding? Nole was 1 match from having a CYGS! He ended the season w/ his 7th YEC & an 8th YE #1! There's no comparison in the 2!

 

[Moxie]

Why are you so crabby? Are we in Moxie-looking-for-a-fight-mode?

I'm not looking for a fight. I'm holding your feet to the fire, is all. When you feel the heat, you just say i'm "crabby?"

I'm not dismissing Rafa's grass performance in 2006-07. My point about the match-up wasn't age, it was their play styles. It is well known that Rafa was a bad match-up for Roger.

But you've forgotten that we were trying to compare Nadal and Alcaraz, at the same age on grass, and you said that Alcaraz would have beaten him "handily." I made a good argument for "not handily," which you deflected, with "match-up v. Fed" and Alcaraz v Novak. I'm saying, that's apples and oranges. I think you lost track of that one.

As for Novak, he cleaned up last year - and was a very young 36. Carlos still beat him, and destroyed him this year. Of course that isn't the same thing as Roger in the Aughties, but still impressive.

Ultimately we cannot know who was better on grass, Rafa in 2007 or Carlos in 2024, so we're kind of arguing an unknowable thing. I don't really feel all that strongly about it, though am impressed with what Alcaraz has done.

I'm also impressed by Alcaraz, and yes, the rest is just conjecture.

And no, I didn't say Alcaraz is better on grass than Roger. Not sure where you got that.

I got it here:

___________________
Maybe you didn't read me correctly.

 

[Moxie]

You're kidding? Nole was 1 match from having a CYGS! He ended the season w/ his 7th YEC & an 8th YE #1! There's no comparison in the 2!

Not winning Wimbledon is NOT the same as being one match way from the CYGS. Ask @britbox.

But Novak hasn't won a title all year. Precipitous drop off from last year's level. He's clearly in decline. You are not consistent.

 

[mrzz]

Shitty match

 

[Moxie]

Shitty match

In what sense? That the stadium didn't blow up before it was over?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Getting back to the match,
My husband a tragic Pete Sampras fan and I say that in a loving way his thoughts Alcaraz serving like prime Sampras in the final
Maybe AP a fan of Sampras could share his thoughts.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Excellent result for tennis today.

Alcaraz literally outclassed Djokovic.

Glad to see a true grass court player like Federer not being equalled at Wimbledon by a pusher type of player like Djokovic.

Djokovic still has zero titles in 2024.

Djokovic now has to quickly switch back to clay for the Olympics which is the most important event for him. Bad move to have played Wimbledon as everyone knew he wasn't going to win. He should have lost much earlier but it's only with a super easy dream draw like that he managed to reach the final. Now the Olympics on clay will be impossible with GOATdal and Alcaraz there.

Alcaraz is now 2-0 in slam finals against Djokovic.

Thank you for reading.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I dont know if this stat has already been posted, cause I tried for hours to get on TF, to no avail, I will post anyway,

Carlos Alcaraz is the youngest male player in the Open Era to complete the Channel Slam, winning Roland Garros and Wimbledon in the same year.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Getting back to the match,
My husband a tragic Pete Sampras fan and I say that in a loving way his thoughts Alcaraz serving like prime Sampras in the final
Maybe AP a fan of Sampras could share his thoughts.

Hi MM.. Carlos serves a lot better than last year but it's no where Sampras like..eg. Pete was so good, he can be down for what ever reason 0-40 and could serve second serve aces plus Pete came into net behind his service..Can you imagine how daunting that was..Pete was off his game the day he lost to Roger who really returned Pete's serve as well as anyone.. Getting back to Carlos, he made an adjustment to his serve but YES his motion is more out front like Sampras but still he is not serving as downhill as Pete did.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Hi MM.. Carlos serves a lot better than last year but it's no where Sampras like..eg. Pete was so good, he can be down for what ever reason 0-40 and could serve second serve aces plus Pete came into net behind his service..Can you imagine how daunting that was..Pete was off his game the day he lost to Roger who really returned Pete's serve as well as anyone.. Getting back to Carlos, he made an adjustment to his serve but YES his motion is more out front like Sampras but still he is not serving as downhill as Pete did.

Thanks AP, hubby said last time he watched Carlos, he had made adjustment to his serve, also agreed with your thoughts ' the motion' is like Sampras out front'. I know when Pete could serve second serves Aces, proving how good he was,.Please hubby has never forgotten the day he lost to Roger agree Roger returned Pete's serve as well anyone.Thanks.

 

[Jelenafan]

Here's a fun one: Alcaraz joins Borg as the only two players to win Wimbledon twice before turning 22.

I thought Boris Becker won Wimbledon twice before turning 19, & 3 times before turning 22.

 

[El Dude]

I thought Boris Becker won Wimbledon twice before turning 19, & 3 times before turning 22.

Crap, you're right.