The Grass is always Greener - 2021

[Front242]

^ Hard to tell really if he's hiding an injury. His serving and overall play at Halle were shite. Serve was slower than usual and 26 unforced errors in his first 2 set match and 25 in the next 3 set match. Those are horrendous stats for short matches if he's healthy so one would wonder. He's not gonna come out and tell the world he's fubar at this stage. It'll be a case of it's hard not to notice.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

That is NOT what Federer did this year. It's clear he, as the #8 seed, used the French Open as practice , and from even his vaguely worded statement why he was withdrawing from his 4th round match, one cannot assume it was an injury. IMO he had NO intention of playing the French Open all the way through. THAT is why he received criticism.

How do you know that? Are you a mind reader?

If Fed had won the match against Kopefer in a routine manner, then he would not be worried about whether his body would hold up and so would have played the next round. He would have continued until he lost as long as he was not worried about ill effects of doing so on his body.

Fed probably did not expect to win RG going in. But, to say that he did not expect to play as far as he could going in is just projecting your thinking.

 

[Moxie]

Again, you keep on trying to make this false equivalency on what they've done. It's one thing, due to health and body concerns to skip tournaments at their age, compare with Federer skipping the French Open in 2017. I can't fault him for that.

And Rafa deciding not to play Wimbledon or Olympics or playing the USO last year, is again, a thought out scheduling plan.

That is NOT what Federer did this year. It's clear he, as the #8 seed, used the French Open as practice , and from even his vaguely worded statement why he was withdrawing from his 4th round match, one cannot assume it was an injury. IMO he had NO intention of playing the French Open all the way through. THAT is why he received criticism.

IF Nadal, had, say entered Wimbledon as the 3rd seed and used it as practice to get ready for the Olympics, he would receive similar criticism. That is not what is happening. When Rafa enters a tournament, it's clear it's because he's going to try to go all the way , if not, he doesn't enter it.

Fans did not second guess Roger's scheduling, they criticized his actions once he entered a Major. If Roger opted not to play W or the Olympic for health reason, I would give him the same benefit of the doubt I give Rafa. Heck, Shapovalov is young and I give him the BOD for skipping the French Open this year. Yet the double standard is that when 34 year old Novak lost a tournament and opted out of entering another clay court tournament, he got reamed by you and others.

I didn't make a false equivalency. I said that Rafa bailing on W before the tournament or the draw is NOT the same thing as bailing during the tournament. And what tournament did I ream out Novak for entering or not entering. Please remind me.

Yes, I agree that Rafa enters a tournament only if he believes he can win. Some Federer fans, esp. @Front242, have been disgruntled forever that Rafa bailed on the AO in 2013, when he wasn't able to play a tune-up due to illness, after a 7-month lay off. I'll honestly never understand why that bothers them, but Rafa`s point then is the same as his point now. At least he's consistent.

Look, I get all the arguments for why what Roger did at FO was wrong. It's just that I know that Roger thinks he owns tennis, and most of tennis thinks that, too. This is why I never liked him. The arrogance, the free pass. But I do give him a bit of a pass on this, not because I think it's actually right, but because I'm not willing to manufacture outrage on what I see as an inevitability. Deep down, no one will ever fault Roger for this choice. AND, because I would rather see him play as long as he can. Did I just contradict myself? Well, so be it.

 

[Moxie]

Can't see how Koepfer has any right to feel hard done by since he LOST.

Because if Roger didn't intend to get through the whole tournament, he might have bailed a round sooner. Or not have played at all. Surely this makes sense to you?

 

[Front242]

I didn't make a false equivalency. I said that Rafa bailing on W before the tournament or the draw is NOT the same thing as bailing during the tournament. And what tournament did I ream out Novak for entering or not entering. Please remind me.

Yes, I agree that Rafa enters a tournament only if he believes he can win. Some Federer fans, esp. @Front242, have been disgruntled forever that Rafa bailed on the AO in 2013, when he wasn't able to play a tune-up due to illness, after a 7-month lay off. I'll honestly never understand why that bothers them, but Rafa`s point then is the same as his point now. At least he's consistent.

Look, I get all the arguments for why what Roger did at FO was wrong. It's just that I know that Roger thinks he owns tennis, and most of tennis thinks that, too. This is why I never liked him. The arrogance, the free pass. But I do give him a bit of a pass on this, not because I think it's actually right, but because I'm not willing to manufacture outrage on what I see as an inevitability. Deep down, no one will ever fault Roger for this choice. AND, because I would rather see him play as long as he can. Did I just contradict myself? Well, so be it.

I never said it bothered me he decided to miss the AO 2013 'cos of a stomach issue healed up weeks before, I said people claiming that as a lost slam opportunity are delusional (mostly those 2 infamous Nadal trolls here) since he chose to miss that one and has only himself to blame there. Playing low ranked players in the early rounds he'd have found his form in no time. His choice. End of.

 

[Moxie]

^ Hard to tell really if he's hiding an injury. His serving and overall play at Halle were shite. Serve was slower than usual and 26 unforced errors in his first 2 set match and 25 in the next 3 set match. Those are horrendous stats for short matches if he's healthy so one would wonder. He's not gonna come out and tell the world he's fubar at this stage. It'll be a case of it's hard not to notice.

Wow, you better talk to GSM about injury excuses, because he's all over Nadal fans on that. Roger himself said that he's not getting his groove back as quickly as he'd hoped. I wish I could find his presser video after the FAA loss. His first set was brilliant, and he looked like his old self. But he couldn't maintain it, and he himself said that he got very negative in the 3rd set. I don't think it's injury, or physical, from what he says. It's mental.

 

[Front242]

Because if Roger didn't intend to get through the whole tournament, he might have bailed a round sooner. Or not have played at all. Surely this makes sense to you?

No it doesn't. GSM spelled it out perfectly in his post that if he'd won that match more routinely, he'd have been in better shape and likely would have continued. Those turgid night match conditions sealed his fate and prolonged the match way too long causing more wear and tear.

 

[Moxie]

Just because there are people on both sides of argument does not mean that there is some element of truth to both sides. If that be the case, you must be thinking that there is some element of truth that on 6th Jan tourists went to Capitol as a reasonable sized group hold that idea.

Nobody is required to play the next round if they feel it is not in their interest.

Sometimes people tank a set to conserve energy as winning the match is a larger goal. Similarly in order to help the larger goal of prolonging his career and maximizing his chances, he did what he did. There is nothing shameful about it.

As to bolded above, I think you have jumped the shark.

As to the rest, look, I'm the only person here that is even vaguely giving Roger a pass for bailing on RG. Argue with other people.

 

[Moxie]

No it doesn't. GSM spelled it out perfectly in his post that if he'd won that match more routinely, he'd have been in better shape and likely would have continued. Those turgid night match conditions sealed his fate and prolonged the match way too long causing more wear and tear.

Hey, you are the person who is also 100% convinced that Medvedev would have won, had he not played a night match v. Tsitsipas. My question to you: are you likewise convinced that Rafa would have beaten Djokovic, had it not been a night match? You put a lot of stock in the change of conditions, day to night.

 

[Front242]

Wow, you better talk to GSM about injury excuses, because he's all over Nadal fans on that. Roger himself said that he's not getting his groove back as quickly as he'd hoped. I wish I could find his presser video after the FAA loss. His first set was brilliant, and he looked like his old self. But he couldn't maintain it, and he himself said that he got very negative in the 3rd set. I don't think it's injury, or physical, from what he says. It's mental.

Yes, I agree I think he's being overly cautious with his movement as opposed to injured and he's not wrong to really given the 2 knee surgeries, his age and the importance of doing well this year but he probably won't. I read his presser interview and yes he looked the most negative I've seen him in years. The over cautious play though is throwing his timing completely off. He was hitting more freely at RG and playing much better but then it's a massive difference in court speed with little time to adjust. He could lose early to a big/decent server or he could surprise people. We'll find out soon but I'm leaning towards him losing early.

 

[Front242]

Hey, you are the person who is also 100% convinced that Medvedev would have won, had he not played a night match v. Tsitsipas. My question to you: are you likewise convinced that Rafa would have beaten Djokovic, had it not been a night match? You put a lot of stock in the change of conditions, day to night.

I think it would certainly have favoured Nadal, yes, to play a night match but maybe his serving woes would still have been present so it might not have mattered much in the end.

 

[Moxie]

Yes, I agree I think he's being overly cautious with his movement as opposed to injured and he's not wrong to really given the 2 knee surgeries, his age and the importance of doing well this year but he probably won't. I read his presser interview and yes he looked the most negative I've seen him in years. The over cautious play though is throwing his timing completely off. He was hitting more freely at RG and playing much better but then it's a massive difference in court speed with little time to adjust. He could lose early to a big/decent server or he could surprise people. We'll find out soon but I'm leaning towards him losing early.

But no injury excuses? Asking for a friend. (@GameSetAndMath )

 

[Moxie]

I think it would certainly have favoured Nadal, yes, to play a night match but maybe his serving woes would still have been present so it might not have mattered much in the end.

No, you mean day match, right? And how can you be so certain that Medvedev, who didn't win ONE set off of Tsitsipas would have won his match under different circumstances, and you hedge on Rafa, who has won the tournament 13 times? Tell me true, or try not to be so ridiculous.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Yes, I agree I think he's being overly cautious with his movement as opposed to injured and he's not wrong to really given the 2 knee surgeries, his age and the importance of doing well this year but he probably won't. I read his presser interview and yes he looked the most negative I've seen him in years. The over cautious play though is throwing his timing completely off. He was hitting more freely at RG and playing much better but then it's a massive difference in court speed with little time to adjust. He could lose early to a big/decent server or he could surprise people. We'll find out soon but I'm leaning towards him losing early.

Seeing he went out early at Halle,why didn't Roger enter another grass tournament for extra practice.Playing on grass granted is using different tactics than playing on clay,different surface.even though is was hitting more freely on clay at RG

 

[Jelenafan]

How do you know that? Are you a mind reader?

If Fed had won the match against Kopefer in a routine manner, then he would not be worried about whether his body would hold up and so would have played the next round. He would have continued until he lost as long as he was not worried about ill effects of doing so on his body.

Fed probably did not expect to win RG going in. But, to say that he did not expect to play as far as he could going in is just projecting your thinking.

PUHLEASE....

Federer most emphatically (IMO) did NOT state that he was withdrawing due to injury. If he had done so, no questions asked. I At least give him some points for honesty.

 

[Fiero425]

PUHLEASE....

Federer most emphatically (IMO) did NOT state that he was withdrawing due to injury. If he had done so, no questions asked. I At least give him some points for honesty.

He didn't want to be embarrassed by Berrettini! Even if he got by him, Djokovic would've been waiting! That's a daunting task at 39+!

 

[Front242]

No, you mean day match, right? And how can you be so certain that Medvedev, who didn't win ONE set off of Tsitsipas would have won his match under different circumstances, and you hedge on Rafa, who has won the tournament 13 times? Tell me true, or try not to be so ridiculous.

Sorry yes, I mixed that up 100% No, I believe the conditions suited Nadal more at night and posted this in the main thread on their semi that I saw that as a disadvantage for Djokovic but seems it wasn't. His main downfall was his serving was woeful quite often, especially in the last set.

 

[Front242]

Seeing he went out early at Halle,why didn't Roger enter another grass tournament for extra practice.Playing on grass granted is using different tactics than playing on clay,different surface.even though is was hitting more freely on clay at RG

He probably should have in all honesty but there are multiple ways to look at it. More match play but if he did well and reached the latter stages after some tough, long matches it's less recovery time before Wimbledon. Coming in rested and in shit form versus in good form and exhausted. A case of Federer scheduling versus Thiem (prior to this year) / Davydenko play every week.

 

[Moxie]

Sorry yes, I mixed that up 100% No, I believe the conditions suited Nadal more at night and posted this in the main thread on their semi that I saw that as a disadvantage for Djokovic but seems it wasn't. His main downfall was his serving was woeful quite often, especially in the last set.

No, daytime and heat always favor Nadal. You completely dodge my question. You are SO SURE that Medvedev, no one's clay player, would have beaten Tsitsipas had he played in conditions more favorable to him, and yet you spare no moment for Nadal, 13 times winner at RG, who might have gotten an edge in a MUCH closer match, had HE actually played in more favorable conditions. If you don't see the inconsistency in your argument, you are a bit pathetic. Medvedev lost because he played at night, but Nadal lost because he didn't serve better, even though the conditions didn't favor him, either. Yeah, right. Your arguments blow with what suits you.

 

[Front242]

No, daytime and heat always favor Nadal. You completely dodge my question. You are SO SURE that Medvedev, no one's clay player, would have beaten Tsitsipas had he played in conditions more favorable to him, and yet you spare no moment for Nadal, 13 times winner at RG, who might have gotten an edge in a MUCH closer match, had HE actually played in more favorable conditions. If you don't see the inconsistency in your argument, you are a bit pathetic. Medvedev lost because he played at night, but Nadal lost because he didn't serve better, even though the conditions didn't favor him, either. Yeah, right. Your arguments blow with what suits you.

No, that's all in your head. Yes he would fare better against guys like Federer or Thiem in a day match as his loopy top spin is much harder to return for guys with 1 handed backhands. Against Djokovic though that doesn't matter and a war of attrition and survival of the fittest makes for a harder task for Djokovic. Medvedev has a way faster serve than Nadal so the night match killed him so, yes, yeah right.

The semi of Nadal v Djokovic was not a late night match at all and started when it was still extremely hot. Also, try and remember RG last year was played in October when it was much, much colder and guess who won so that's just bs in all honesty and the better player won who lost poorly in colder weather the previous year. Doesn't add up really does it.