Serious PC thread

[tented]

have people seen Dave Chapelle's show 'The Closer' yet? I'm waiting for a good youtube stream of it, as I'll be damned if I'm going to get netflix. I can't even make full use of all the channels I have already! Interested to hear your thoughts...

I watched it last night. I think the key here, as @Moxie pointed out, is that Chapelle is a comedian: he’s not a politician, he’s not the head of the school board, he’s not the dean of a university. He’s a comedian, and as such, his job, so to speak, is to make people laugh at themselves and others.

There’s a tendency, I believe, when comedians focus their attention on a certain group of people, they don’t laugh, or at least don’t laugh as much as they laugh when comedians focus on another group. I can be guilty of this myself. When comedians make gay jokes, I tense up a little, waiting to see where they’re going with them, but at the same time, I quickly remind myself to laugh — they’re comedians! — and how I laughed when they made jokes about others. In general, it’s hypocritical of me to take offense at gay jokes, but laugh at Irish jokes, Latino jokes, and black jokes. Since Chapelle spends so much time discussing trans people, I think they have felt more picked on than they would have felt had Chapelle spent more time on other groups.

He does get angry, as Moxie also pointed out, but he has been angry, and comedy is his form of expression. In my opinion, he doesn’t express the blatant transphobia (a dubious word in itself, as Bill Maher discussed the other night) some have claimed. Chapelle raises various issues, and discusses them through the filter of comedy, but I don’t consider him to be anti-trans, anti-gay, and so on.

As for the efforts to cancel him, and get Netflix to pull his show, I disagree strongly, and I’m happy Netflix hasn’t caved to these demands.

 

[tented]

The first half hour of an interview with John McWhorter by Sam Harris.

 

[Kieran]

The first half hour of an interview with John McWhorter by Sam Harris.

Any time I’ve seen John McWhorter he’s a voice of reason in a hurricane of bad ideas. Sam Harris can be similarly reasonable, I look forward to this one, thanks!

 

[tented]

have people seen Dave Chapelle's show 'The Closer' yet? I'm waiting for a good youtube stream of it, as I'll be damned if I'm going to get netflix. I can't even make full use of all the channels I have already! Interested to hear your thoughts...

 

[Moxie]

The first half hour of an interview with John McWhorter by Sam Harris.

I listened to this, and I felt McWhorter's recounting of the positions he disagrees with was a bit simplistic. He kept going down his laundry list of grievances and simply saying that others just call them out as "racist." While I don't disagree that there are some who tip over too far, I think there is generally a much more nuanced discussion about race out there that he tends to dismiss. Interesting perspective, though, in some ways. Worth the listen, so thanks for posting it.

 

[Kieran]

I listened to this, and I felt McWhorter's recounting of the positions he disagrees with was a bit simplistic. He kept going down his laundry list of grievances and simply saying that others just call them out as "racist." While I don't disagree that there are some who tip over too far, I think there is generally a much more nuanced discussion about race out there that he tends to dismiss. Interesting perspective, though, in some ways. Worth the listen, so thanks for posting it.

I think you might enjoy his more long form conversations with Glenn Loury on BloggingheadsTV, on YouTube, where they can go more in depth on those issues. Right now he’s plugging a book, one that seems timely and essential…

 

[Federberg]

Thanks all. Very interesting. The way the reviews came out it almost seemed as if he was going over the line on this one. If there is such a thing as a line in comedy. Glad to hear that it's primarily the case that people just want to be part of the polemic. They've fallen into his trap. Thanks for the video clips, although one of them isn't watchable in the UK apparently..

 

[tented]

Thanks all. Very interesting. The way the reviews came out it almost seemed as if he was going over the line on this one. If there is such a thing as a line in comedy. Glad to hear that it's primarily the case that people just want to be part of the polemic. They've fallen into his trap. Thanks for the video clips, although one of them isn't watchable in the UK apparently..

If you’re referring to the one I posted a few messages above, it looks like it was deleted, so I used another version. Hopefully you can view this one.

 

[Federberg]

If you’re referring to the one I posted a few messages above, it looks like it was deleted, so I used another version. Hopefully you can view this one.

ah ok thanks. I've seen this before. What a speaker he is. 846 will probably be the defining monologue describing the social unrest in 2020 for all time

 

[Federberg]

Boris Johnson says 'biological males should not be competing in female sporting events'

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges was last week barred from competing in the British National Omnium Championships by the sports governing body the UCI; Hastings United Womens goalkeeper Blair Hamilton was called up to represent Englands University team

www.skysports.com

 

[Kieran]

Boris Johnson says 'biological males should not be competing in female sporting events'

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges was last week barred from competing in the British National Omnium Championships by the sports governing body the UCI; Hastings United Womens goalkeeper Blair Hamilton was called up to represent Englands University team

www.skysports.com

Well, good for Boris, and it's great to see a leader of a Western country come out and finally talk sense with regards to the gender issue, rather than cower in the face of squeaking activists, or hide behind dozy lyrical triangulations - "I'm not a biologist." We get the sense with Boris that if he was asked "what is a woman?", he'd reply they way everybody would have replied to this question, only about five minutes ago. Now we have pregnant men emojis, done without a hint of humour. Let that sink in. Not only the fact of it, but the reasons behind it, which are that pink-haired jihadis are forcing us into hell with their illogical, anti-science, anti-reason demands. They don't only have most of the leaders of the free world uttering terrified inanities in order to get a peaceful nights' sleep, but they also have commerce, comedy and sports wobbling unsteadily into the dark. I was going to add "culture" to that list but the prevailing culture is to embrace all fads, no matter how dodgy or disgusting...

 

[Moxie]

Well, good for Boris, and it's great to see a leader of a Western country come out and finally talk sense with regards to the gender issue, rather than cower in the face of squeaking activists, or hide behind dozy lyrical triangulations - "I'm not a biologist." We get the sense with Boris that if he was asked "what is a woman?", he'd reply they way everybody would have replied to this question, only about five minutes ago. Now we have pregnant men emojis, done without a hint of humour. Let that sink in. Not only the fact of it, but the reasons behind it, which are that pink-haired jihadis are forcing us into hell with their illogical, anti-science, anti-reason demands. They don't only have most of the leaders of the free world uttering terrified inanities in order to get a peaceful nights' sleep, but they also have commerce, comedy and sports wobbling unsteadily into the dark. I was going to add "culture" to that list but the prevailing culture is to embrace all fads, no matter how dodgy or disgusting...

So are you completely against trans people, or just them competing in sports? Because it sounds like you don't believe in any notion that transpeople exist. Which is your right, but I'm just curious, to clarify the argument. You seem to scoff at the question "what is a woman?" presumably referring to the question asked of Kentaji Brown Jackson in the US Supreme Court hearings? Leaving aside the fact that that is a useless question in the context, I'm a bit surprised by your lack of feeling for the poetry or existentialism of the question.

 

[Kieran]

So are you completely against trans people, or just them competing in sports? Because it sounds like you don't believe in any notion that transpeople exist. Which is your right, but I'm just curious, to clarify the argument. You seem to scoff at the question "what is a woman?" presumably referring to the question asked of Kentaji Brown Jackson in the US Supreme Court hearings? Leaving aside the fact that that is a useless question in the context, I'm a bit surprised by your lack of feeling for the poetry or existentialism of the question.

I actually understand and agree with her presumed reason for not answering the question - which is that she was being led into a trap, so she used a strange and memorable formulation of words to deny the question, knowing that she was on a hiding to nothing. It's a measure of how deranged things have become that she even had to do this, however, but of course it gave us a growth of memes and she came under flak for saying it, so, well we got memes, and also the suspicion that she knows exactly what a woman is, and she doesn't need to be a biologist to tell us. A mirror would suffice, in her case.

I believe that trans people exist, I just don't believe that they are what they think they are. It has nothing to do with poetry or existentialism. That's not how we define man, or woman, child, or ape or anything else that can be scrutinised through science. It's not how poets think of women, either. If there's to be poetry, it would celebrate the woman in ways that are both explicit and stirring, with absolutely no ambiguity as to the biological sex being referred to.

A thousand years from now when fossilised bones are examined, the people of the time won't scratch their heads and wonder about it, let alone philosophise or wax lyrical. The only existential threat here is to actual women, who once again are getting booted back down the pecking order by men. It's a strange time we live in when a woman gets abused for saying what a woman is, but these are them times. Nothing poetic about it at all. I'm more surprised that you as a feminist aren't alert to this threat that your fellow feminists - and women - are facing...

 

[Moxie]

I actually understand and agree with her presumed reason for not answering the question - which is that she was being led into a trap, so she used a strange and memorable formulation of words to deny the question, knowing that she was on a hiding to nothing. It's a measure of how deranged things have become that she even had to do this, however, but of course it gave us a growth of memes and she came under flak for saying it, so, well we got memes, and also the suspicion that she knows exactly what a woman is, and she doesn't need to be a biologist to tell us. A mirror would suffice, in her case.

I believe that trans people exist, I just don't believe that they are what they think they are.

I'm not sure why you are the person who gets to say that. If you believe they exist, why do you get to define them?

It has nothing to do with poetry or existentialism. That's not how we define man, or woman, child, or ape or anything else that can be scrutinised through science.

Children are born intersex, and some people have too many chromosomes on both sides. I'm not sure that your xx/xy binary is the one answer. I do think it's more subtle, but if you want to go with science, even science isn't perfectly clear.

Therefore, yes, I think some of these questions can be existential.

It's not how poets think of women, either. If there's to be poetry, it would celebrate the woman in ways that are both explicit and stirring, with absolutely no ambiguity as to the biological sex being referred to.

While romantic, this is also a bit sexist, if you'll forgive me. Not all poets are men. Many are women, and often they celebrate a universality of womanhood that is beyond vagina and x-chromosome. I still say there is room for poetry and existentialism if you want to speak of what "womanhood" is, and what "manhood" is, and I don't think it's scientifically constrained.

A thousand years from now when fossilised bones are examined, the people of the time won't scratch their heads and wonder about it, let alone philosophise or wax lyrical.

It's not the fossilized bones, it's the people living here and now that I care about, personally.

The only existential threat here is to actual women, who once again are getting booted back down the pecking order by men.

I don't believe that, at all. I feel not in the least threatened by trans women or trans men. My bigger problem, which is as it as always been, is that a cis-man still thinks a penis trumps experience, no matter the resume. There are no number of trans people that will ever have or ever will kick me to the curb as much as straight men have, in business. And I don't see a huge change there.

It's a strange time we live in when a woman gets abused for saying what a woman is, but these are them times. Nothing poetic about it at all. I'm more surprised that you as a feminist aren't alert to this threat that your fellow feminists - and women - are facing...

See above.

 

[Kieran]

I'm not sure why you are the person who gets to say that. If you believe they exist, why do you get to define them?

I’m not defining them. I’m saying that if I think I’m a dolphin, that doesn’t change the definition of what a dolphin is.

A person can’t get to change the definition of what a man or woman is, based upon their gut feelings or intuitions. Have you ever thought, the trans person could be wrong to think they’re not gender they were born to? And if they’re wrong, what are we to do about it, to help them?

Children are born intersex, and some people have too many chromosomes on both sides. I'm not sure that your xx/xy binary is the one answer. I do think it's more subtle, but if you want to go with science, even science isn't perfectly clear.

Intersex is a different thing, especially when it comes to children being hustled into declaring themselves to be a different gender to their biological reality. Let’s be honest here: when we discuss Trans, we’re talking about the modern epidemic of people deciding they’re not the gender they were born to. We’re talking about the ones who think they can assign their own reality of who they they think are, based upon their decision to change what they are, despite this being an immutable physical reality.

The same ones who then insist that we all have to share their view of reality.

Therefore, yes, I think some of these questions can be existential.

While romantic, this is also a bit sexist, if you'll forgive me. Not all poets are men. Many are women, and often they celebrate a universality of womanhood that is beyond vagina and x-chromosome. I still say there is room for poetry and existentialism if you want to speak of what "womanhood" is, and what "manhood" is, and I don't think it's scientifically constrained.

In the realm of fantasy, and poetry, of course we can say anything. You even decided what I had said about poetry was different to what I said. Thatit was sexist. That’s fine. But we’re not talking about poetry. That’s just an unnecessary diversion.

We’re talking about men wanting to step into the octagon with women, and beat them up - but that’s okay because the man is now also a woman. Men competing with women in sports. Men once again taking priority over women everywhere, by putting on a dress and skipping the queue, which women had fought for so long to take their place rightfully at the head of.

It's not the fossilized bones, it's the people living here and now that I care about, personally.

And so do I. Especially unfortunate children who are subject to their parents whims in this regard. But we believe The Science when it comes to so much and then we chuck it out when it’s politically expedient? Would you look at a dead person who’s obviously male and double guess yourself and say, well I mustn’t be rude and misgender the chap?

What if he died of prostate cancer? Would you take a guess and think, oh poor woman!

This is largely, by the way, an area where the left has decided to become anti-science, either through a false notion of compassion, or else through something more politically destabilising, and sinister.

I don't believe that, at all. I feel not in the least threatened by trans women or trans men. My bigger problem, which is as it as always been, is that a cis-man still thinks a penis trumps experience, no matter the resume. There are no number of trans people that will ever have or ever will kick me to the curb as much as straight men have, in business. And I don't see a huge change there.

“Cis men” is yet another modish term, made up to make it seem that these innovative ideas have serious, scientific definitions which have always been true. When you say about cis-men thinking their penis trumps experience, it brings up absurd images of a female-penis, which is now a thing, apparently. And we’re supposed to believe that, because somebody tells us that this is their “experience?”

What about biological reality? Does that no longer mean anything to those whose politics leads them into thinking there’s a female penis? Is all reality itself simply changed because one person decides subjectively that things aren’t what they are?

I don’t think so. And I think that the tide is turning a little against the loud, nasty, vicious trans lobby, and thanks in no small part to feminists who have stood up against it, and honestly defined what a woman is…

 

[tented]

There are several concerns surrounding the trans community. I’ll begin with biological chronology. There was a 60 Minutes segment about 6-12 months ago (I can’t find it on YouTube) which raised serious questions about kids and adolescents (i.e., all under 18) who were transitioning. The problem was that some of them were too young to fully grasp the repercussions of their actions. For example, taking hormones at an age which leads to lifelong consequences, only to later change their minds. This happens. Kids change their minds. There were some who felt pressured by health care professionals and/or their parents to transition. There are strict guidelines in place by psychiatric organizations which have been ignored, such as not waiting long enough to transition after first deciding to go down that road. I don’t know what the current guidelines are, but I do remember years ago, when I had a friend who transitioned, he had to live as a woman (I don’t remember how that was precisely defined) for one year before doctors would even consider beginning drugs or performing surgeries.

This is NOT to say there are no kids who are the wrong gender. I realized at a very young age I was gay. In fact, I was so young I don’t remember not knowing that. So I can believe there are kids who know something that’s atypical at a young age. But I also believe there are kids who express an interest in something which doesn’t fit the standard binary gender norms, who get steered in a direction which is wrong. Not every boy who plays with dolls or every girl who plays softball needs to transition, but it feels at times these days that’s what’s happening.

As for the sports question, I agree with Martina: it’s simply unfair to allow women who grew up as men, and have the associated biological differences/advantages already baked in, to compete against those who were born female. Perhaps the answer is to have trans people compete against each other? That would level the playing field.

 

[Federberg]

So are you completely against trans people, or just them competing in sports? Because it sounds like you don't believe in any notion that transpeople exist. Which is your right, but I'm just curious, to clarify the argument. You seem to scoff at the question "what is a woman?" presumably referring to the question asked of Kentaji Brown Jackson in the US Supreme Court hearings? Leaving aside the fact that that is a useless question in the context, I'm a bit surprised by your lack of feeling for the poetry or existentialism of the question.

Are you ok with non biological women competing against biological women in sports?

 

[Moxie]

Are you ok with non biological women competing against biological women in sports?

Which is where your most recent post started, I believe. Re: Boris. We have gone several rounds on this one before around these parts, and I have said that I am not in favor of that. There will always be the likelihood of physical advantage which would not be fair. What I have said before is that when you make certain life-choices, they close down other avenues. If a person who is an athlete decides to transition to another sex, and that choice is especially male to female, then they will also have to give up their sport. I think we've discussed trans-games, which I would be fine with. There are also real complications in this with female athletes who always considered themselves female who don't make the cut on genetic screening, and this is also very complicated, but a different point. But that's why I say to Kieran that you can't just say that the science is completely binary.

 

[Federberg]

Which is where your most recent post started, I believe. Re: Boris. We have gone several rounds on this one before around these parts, and I have said that I am not in favor of that. There will always be the likelihood of physical advantage which would not be fair. What I have said before is that when you make certain life-choices, they close down other avenues. If a person who is an athlete decides to transition to another sex, and that choice is especially male to female, then they will also have to give up their sport. I think we've discussed trans-games, which I would be fine with. There are also real complications in this with female athletes who always considered themselves female who don't make the cut on genetic screening, and this is also very complicated, but a different point. But that's why I say to Kieran that you can't just say that the science is completely binary.

I feel for an athlete like Caster Semenya, but in a way no more than I would feel for another athlete who has lost their sight and is no longer able to compete. A trans competition is the way to go. But this thing where mediocre dudes get the snip and then compete? Well I'll just post what Stack said....

 

[Kieran]

I feel for an athlete like Caster Semenya, but in a way no more than I would feel for another athlete who has lost their sight and is no longer able to compete. A trans competition is the way to go. But this thing where mediocre dudes get the snip and then compete? Well I'll just post what Stack said....

He’s not wrong, and of course, some of them don’t even have the good manners to get the snip. And who can blame them, a chap might say. Better to keep your options open.

Hopefully the Williams debacle has swung the tide against all this and young girls can continue to dream of having a fair shot at sporting immortality…