Serious PC thread

[Moxie]

He’s not wrong, and of course, some of them don’t even have the good manners to get the snip. And who can blame them, a chap might say. Better to keep your options open.

Hopefully the Williams debacle has swung the tide against all this and young girls can continue to dream of having a fair shot at sporting immortality…

No sure what you mean in the Williams debacle in all of this?

 

[Moxie]

I feel for an athlete like Caster Semenya, but in a way no more than I would feel for another athlete who has lost their sight and is no longer able to compete. A trans competition is the way to go. But this thing where mediocre dudes get the snip and then compete? Well I'll just post what Stack said....

I'm going to ask you to listen to this podcast. It's rather long, but I think the conversation we're having deserves you and @Kieran to make some effort. Caster Semenya features, though it is mainly about Dutee Chand. But it does go through the history of how women have been challenged in sports as to their "femininity." From the Cold War, initially, and the "Nude Parade," when they were subjected to male judges deciding if they were women, then chromosome tests, and it goes on from there. This is hardly about "mediocre male athletes deciding to get the snip to do better," which is a cheap idea, and barely worth the response, but so much more about how the world sees female athletes, and maybe fears them. They keep moving the bar. But, at the very least, this challenges Kieran's idea that defining a woman is easy, (or a man,) as per science.

Gonads: Dutee

Olympian Dutee Chand has drawn the spotlight not just for being one of the fastest Indian female runners ever: in 2014, she was banned after failing a “gender test.”

www.wnycstudios.org

 

[Kieran]

No sure what you mean in the Williams debacle in all of this?

Sorry, Lia Thomas. The Thomas debacle…

 

[Kieran]

I'm going to ask you to listen to this podcast. It's rather long, but I think the conversation we're having deserves you and @Kieran to make some effort. Caster Semenya features, though it is mainly about Dutee Chand. But it does go through the history of how women have been challenged in sports as to their "femininity." From the Cold War, initially, and the "Nude Parade," when they were subjected to male judges deciding if they were women, then chromosome tests, and it goes on from there. This is hardly about "mediocre male athletes deciding to get the snip to do better," which is a cheap idea, and barely worth the response, but so much more about how the world sees female athletes, and maybe fears them. They keep moving the bar. But, at the very least, this challenges Kieran's idea that defining a woman is easy, (or a man,) as per science.

Gonads: Dutee

Olympian Dutee Chand has drawn the spotlight not just for being one of the fastest Indian female runners ever: in 2014, she was banned after failing a “gender test.”

www.wnycstudios.org

Dutee Chand is a woman. Caster Semenya is an intersex woman. This is not what we’re talking about, and none of this is news to me…

 

[Moxie]

Dutee Chand is a woman. Caster Semenya is an intersex woman. This is not what we’re talking about, and none of this is news to me…

You make it out to be quite easy to define "woman" yet it isn't necessarily so. Is what I'm talking about.

 

[Kieran]

You make it out to be quite easy to define "woman" yet it isn't necessarily so. Is what I'm talking about.

Oh I know exactly what you’re talking about. You’re talking about poetry, existentialism, and statistically minuscule exceptions as being a bizarre defence for men like Lia Thomas to pass themselves off as women, to the detriment of actual women. As an evasion for you to avoid saying that a woman is any person who isn’t a man. Or, a woman is an adult female.

You’ve leaned on biology to point to Dutee Chand, but would you accept “biological female” as a description of what a woman is? Or how would you describe a woman - without resorting to the usual smokescreens the left blur up around this issue. These things were so simple five minutes ago - before all the revolutionary, irrational ideas, like there being “672 genders,” and attacks on women and feminists, by calling feminists TERFS, and women being called “bleeders”, “birthing persons”, “people who menstruate” and other horrible terms. Even in the US Senate these grossly reductive terms are being used to erase the word “woman”, and thereby having the effect of damaging women. Women have lost their jobs and faced death threats because of this nonsense…

 

[Moxie]

Oh I know exactly what you’re talking about. You’re talking about poetry, existentialism, and statistically minuscule exceptions as being a bizarre defence for men like Lia Thomas to pass themselves off as women, to the detriment of actual women. As an evasion for you to avoid saying that a woman is any person who isn’t a man. Or, a woman is an adult female.

You’ve leaned on biology to point to Dutee Chand, but would you accept “biological female” as a description of what a woman is? Or how would you describe a woman - without resorting to the usual smokescreens the left blur up around this issue. These things were so simple five minutes ago - before all the revolutionary, irrational ideas, like there being “672 genders,” and attacks on women and feminists, by calling feminists TERFS, and women being called “bleeders”, “birthing persons”, “people who menstruate” and other horrible terms. Even in the US Senate these grossly reductive terms are being used to erase the word “woman”, and thereby having the effect of damaging women. Women have lost their jobs and faced death threats because of this nonsense…

You didn't ask me to define it. We were talking about someone else being asked...which you brought up. And you said the definition is simple. And I have said, regarding Federberg's OP on this recent discussion, that I am not in favor of trans women competing against cis woman. And I don't use any of those terms that you posted above. You've got me all wrong. I just asked you if you had a problem with transpeople, as you were the one that extrapolated it much farther out.

 

[Kieran]

You didn't ask me to define it. We were talking about someone else being asked...which you brought up. And you said the definition is simple. And I have said, regarding Federberg's OP on this recent discussion, that I am not in favor of trans women competing against cis woman. And I don't use any of those terms that you posted above. You've got me all wrong. I just asked you if you had a problem with transpeople, as you were the one that extrapolated it much farther out.

I don’t have a problem with any people, until they cause the trouble the trans community - and their “allies” - have caused. People can be wrong whatever way that suits them until it affects society badly, like this has…

 

[Moxie]

I don’t have a problem with any people, until they cause the trouble the trans community - and their “allies” - have caused. People can be wrong whatever way that suits them until it affects society badly, like this has…

Fair enough. Personally, I don't think, however, that the extremes or most radical actors of any community represents the whole of that community. I honestly think most people just want to live and let live, and live with their own dignity.

That said, and addressing the general topic of this thread, I had a business lunch on Friday with two colleagues, both women, one a 20-something, the other just 40, and me. (I am, ahem, rather over 40. So call it 3 generations of women in the film business.) Leaping off from The Slap, we got onto PC culture. My 40-year-old colleague said that she was very careful what she said around young people anymore. I asked about that, and the intern proceeded to explain to me just how hyper-sensitive her generation is. She was not in agreement with it, but she said you can be called out for the smallest divergence from "PC norms." This is something I've read a lot about, but it was interesting, (and distressing) to hear it straight from someone of her generation.

Everyone here knows that I believe a lot of good has come from PC Culture...changing vocab can change thoughts, holding people to account for the way they treat people can lead to greater equality and diversity. But I can see it has tipped over bullying and thought policing in ways that are shocking and disheartening.

 

[Kieran]

L

Fair enough. Personally, I don't think, however, that the extremes or most radical actors of any community represents the whole of that community. I honestly think most people just want to live and let live, and live with their own dignity.

That said, and addressing the general topic of this thread, I had a business lunch on Friday with two colleagues, both women, one a 20-something, the other just 40, and me. (I am, ahem, rather over 40. So call it 3 generations of women in the film business.) Leaping off from The Slap, we got onto PC culture. My 40-year-old colleague said that she was very careful what she said around young people anymore. I asked about that, and the intern proceeded to explain to me just how hyper-sensitive her generation is. She was not in agreement with it, but she said you can be called out for the smallest divergence from "PC norms." This is something I've read a lot about, but it was interesting, (and distressing) to hear it straight from someone of her generation.

Everyone here knows that I believe a lot of good has come from PC Culture...changing vocab can change thoughts, holding people to account for the way they treat people can lead to greater equality and diversity. But I can see it has tipped over bullying and thought policing in ways that are shocking and disheartening.

It sounds like a great conversation. I’m also ahem over 25 but I love to chat with people of other generations. I actually find young people to be very impressive and I detest when they’re dismissed as snowflakes, etc. They’re dealing with a different type of issues than I had to when I was their age, and in common with us all, they’re trying to be fair about it. And I agree with you, that it’s only a radical, intolerant bunch of the trans group that are causing a helluva lot of trouble. I know a person who sweetly asks to be referred to as “they” and this kind of thing isn’t a problem for me.

There‘s a wonderful Zatoichi movie I saw years ago, where there are male courtesans dressed as geishas - let’s call them trans, because essentially they were - and as everyone has to escape, they were fleeing in a panic, and Zatoichi held the gate open for them and said, “after you, ladies,” and I thought at the time that it was a beautiful moment, because though it cost him nothing to be courteous, in fact it was evidence of his own integrity. And that there was a spiritual wisdom in there too, in that he didn’t let an idea get in the way of him seeing the person.

Political correctness has done some good in making people aware that whole groups of “others” aren’t just the butt of funny accent jokes, that they can’t be dismissed as stereotypes, and once we reach that point of awareness of this, we gain a level of acceptance that was largely probably absent before. Certainly casual racism and sexism were the easy go-to for many who didn’t want to deal with a problem with any feelings for “the other”, and this was enabled by the jokes and stereotypes, which couldn’t help but allow some extent of hostility to be concealed within.

And I agree that “changing vocab can change thoughts,” and marginalising certain terms has made us pause in general before we speak too loosely. Yeah, it goes too far at times, but it has its benefits.

Another way, however, that “changing vocab can change thoughts” is the innovative way that language is used lately, as weapons against certain groups of people, and as an attempt to alter reality.

There’s a whole lexicon of modern language innovation and jargon that’s directed at revolutionising society - cisgender being an example - and I dismiss these terms completely before I hold a discussion with anyone about the issues, because it isn’t wise to discuss anything, using unreliable terms. Or, to use terms which haven’t yet been proven to be true, or gained common acceptance as being truthful.

But again, as you say, these are fringe, loud radicals creating this noise, largely today on the left, though the right have their own issues. Best for all newcomers to vocabulary to present their bonafides for inspection, to see if they’re genuinely instructive terms, or just Trojan horses for dodgy ideologies…

 

[Federberg]

This is madness!

 

[Federberg]

Fair enough. Personally, I don't think, however, that the extremes or most radical actors of any community represents the whole of that community. I honestly think most people just want to live and let live, and live with their own dignity.

That said, and addressing the general topic of this thread, I had a business lunch on Friday with two colleagues, both women, one a 20-something, the other just 40, and me. (I am, ahem, rather over 40. So call it 3 generations of women in the film business.) Leaping off from The Slap, we got onto PC culture. My 40-year-old colleague said that she was very careful what she said around young people anymore. I asked about that, and the intern proceeded to explain to me just how hyper-sensitive her generation is. She was not in agreement with it, but she said you can be called out for the smallest divergence from "PC norms." This is something I've read a lot about, but it was interesting, (and distressing) to hear it straight from someone of her generation.

Everyone here knows that I believe a lot of good has come from PC Culture...changing vocab can change thoughts, holding people to account for the way they treat people can lead to greater equality and diversity. But I can see it has tipped over bullying and thought policing in ways that are shocking and disheartening.

I used to be a stronger believer in that, than I am now. And then came Trump and the way people were ok with bringing their bigotry out in the open again.... It was depressing. Sometimes it hasn't gone, it's just hibernating

 

[Federberg]

please please please... tell me this is fake news

New Jersey public schools suggests masturbating 'to relieve stress'

Sample lesson plans for pupils in New Jersey could be taught how puberty blockers are an acceptable way to 'manage' puberty while another discussed masturbation for 5th grade

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Moxie]

please please please... tell me this is fake news

New Jersey public schools suggests masturbating 'to relieve stress'

Sample lesson plans for pupils in New Jersey could be taught how puberty blockers are an acceptable way to 'manage' puberty while another discussed masturbation for 5th grade

www.dailymail.co.uk

It may well be. It's just in that right-wing paper, fox news, and something that sounds like a holy-roller blog. I just googled it. I listened to a program that covers a lot of local area politics and school boards including sex ed stuff and I hear not a peep of this, and the fox news story is from last fall. Probably just coming from the same people who are obsessed with all the "pedophiles" on the left?

 

[Federberg]

It may well be. It's just in that right-wing paper, fox news, and something that sounds like a holy-roller blog. I just googled it. I listened to a program that covers a lot of local area politics and school boards including sex ed stuff and I hear not a peep of this, and the fox news story is from last fall. Probably just coming from the same people who are obsessed with all the "pedophiles" on the left?

Yup. Daily Mail. It could well be Fox News type nonsense! Thanks for checking

 

[Federberg]

what a wonderful brave new world we live in....

Ex-soldier exposed her penis and used wheelie bin as sex toy in public

The ex-soldier also exposed herself in front of three children who were passing her house.

metro.co.uk

 

[tented]

what a wonderful brave new world we live in....

Ex-soldier exposed her penis and used wheelie bin as sex toy in public

The ex-soldier also exposed herself in front of three children who were passing her house.

metro.co.uk

I had to google “wheelie bin” but it was worth it!

 

[Federberg]

At this point I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry. And to think this is happening under a Conservative government. FFS...

NHS urged to use term 'chestfeeding' to make services more inclusive

EXCLUSIVE: A Department of Health-funded report on how to improve maternity services for trans people says NHS should ditch language like breastfeeding and instead use chestfeeding.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Moxie]

At this point I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry. And to think this is happening under a Conservative government. FFS...

NHS urged to use term 'chestfeeding' to make services more inclusive

EXCLUSIVE: A Department of Health-funded report on how to improve maternity services for trans people says NHS should ditch language like breastfeeding and instead use chestfeeding.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Honest to god, even I have to say this is ridiculous, and also dangerously unscientific. If there is milk coming from a human chest, it's coming from a breast, and men do have breasts, also. If a person lives as a trans-man, but chooses to give birth, it may feel awkward that milk comes from their breasts and the baby came out of their vagina, but there is a certain reality to that choice. As to "frontal birth," that Victorian-style term would keep caregivers from knowing whether it was a vaginal birth or a Caesarean, which I believe is an important distinction. As to a trans-man likely wishing privacy while giving birth, well, who wouldn't, but it's even more understandable in this unusual type of case, if you take my meaning. To say it is to avoid being around women seems either misguided, or a Daily Mail add-on.

 

[Federberg]

^It gets worse. My sister was telling me that a friend of hers had a baby and when her husband asked the nurse whether it was a boy or girl, he was told that it was an inappropriate question and that it was up to them (mother and father) to define the sex of the child This actually happened. In the last few weeks. I shit you not.. You guys might think you're leading the woke charge but I think it's totally unrestrained here right now. It's madness