Serious PC thread

[Kieran]

This argument is completely nonsensical, certainly not parallel. How would a heterosexual man "tricking" a lesbian be the equivalent? The transexual woman being discussed in the video is into men, she's just not telling them she used to have a penis. Right? So, wouldn't shoe on the other foot be a trans man picking up women and not telling them he doesn't actually have a penis? Or anyway, that he can't father children?

The “transsexual woman” in the video is a man claiming to be a woman and not telling this to the man.

The heterosexual is a man claiming to be a woman and not telling this to the lesbian.

In both cases the victim is deceived into a sexual situation by a person who they would never be with if they knew the truth.

It’s sexual abuse…

 

[Federberg]

Are we not talking about a strip here? Having one-night stands with an exotic dancer? Hard to understand all of it as that one chick kept shoving food in her mouth while she was talking. What if the whole episode passed and the man never knew. Would it matter?

Is it such a shock to these guys that there are trans women at a strip club? Thus my lack of outrage in this particular case.

oh come on... who gives a damn whether this happens at a strip club or not? (and I know perfectly well that you know what you're doing here )

You have argued that these... people should be free to do what they want and the rest of us should participate in the charade, as it doesn't really affect us. But we are being required to alter our understanding of language for this nonsense, I don't think you fully appreciate how profound that is. Language hugely impacts how we understand and think about ourselves. You might not see the harm that this sort of fraud causes. But that just puts the lie into your 'understanding and empathy' of humanity. It's very interesting that you're prepared to give space for these trans-people, but men are thrown in the trash heap if they don't conform to what you consider to be correct male behaviour. That's pretty close to misandry in my book. Like it or not, men are genetically conditioned to want to have sex when they see naked women. We can give two hoots whether you or anyone else has a morality problem with that. If you're trying to socially reconstruct men to suit some feminised paradigm... you'll lose not just men, but probably half of women who actually want their men to be men!

 

[Moxie]

oh come on... who gives a damn whether this happens at a strip club or not? (and I know perfectly well that you know what you're doing here )

You have argued that these... people should be free to do what they want and the rest of us should participate in the charade, as it doesn't really affect us. But we are being required to alter our understanding of language for this nonsense, I don't think you fully appreciate how profound that is. Language hugely impacts how we understand and think about ourselves. You might not see the harm that this sort of fraud causes. But that just puts the lie into your 'understanding and empathy' of humanity. It's very interesting that you're prepared to give space for these trans-people, but men are thrown in the trash heap if they don't conform to what you consider to be correct male behaviour. That's pretty close to misandry in my book. Like it or not, men are genetically conditioned to want to have sex when they see naked women. We can give two hoots whether you or anyone else has a morality problem with that. If you're trying to socially reconstruct men to suit some feminised paradigm... you'll lose not just men, but probably half of women who actually want their men to be men!

What is it that you think I'm doing, other than looking down my nose at men who pick up girls in strip clubs. (Which I am doing.) Is this the same as, say, if a man was on a dating site, looking for a partner and future mother of his children, in good faith, and getting catfished by a trans woman? I think not. Also, on that video were any of the men who were supposedly "duped" interviewed? I saw only women. Who's to know if they were actually unaware, or, if it bothered them?

 

[Moxie]

The “transsexual woman” in the video is a man claiming to be a woman and not telling this to the man.

The heterosexual is a man claiming to be a woman and not telling this to the lesbian.

In both cases the victim is deceived into a sexual situation by a person who they would never be with if they knew the truth.

It’s sexual abuse…

Kieran, I can see that you don't believe that that "transexual woman" is a woman, but you do have to believe that she committedly lives as one, given that she had her penis removed. Additionally, I think it's fair to assume she wanted to have sex with these men. She's into men. Now, what would be the reason for, and how would it be equivalent, of a heterosexual man duping and having sex with a lesbian? Why would he want to have sex with a lesbian? And also, wouldn't she eventually realize he has a penis, and so is not a trans man? Thereby, the sex would be rape...unless he concealed it and it were other. But what would the benefit be? Who is this imagined person, who dresses like, what? a really butch dyke in order to pick up lesbians in a girls bar? Why, to take their money? Hmmm....

 

[Federberg]

What is it that you think I'm doing, other than looking down my nose at men who pick up girls in strip clubs. (Which I am doing.) Is this the same as, say, if a man was on a dating site, looking for a partner and future mother of his children, in good faith, and getting catfished by a trans woman? I think not. Also, on that video were any of the men who were supposedly "duped" interviewed? I saw only women. Who's to know if they were actually unaware, or, if it bothered them?

skipping around the issue...

Do you believe that it's ok for a trans-woman to sleep with a man, without telling them what they are first?

 

[Moxie]

skipping around the issue...

Do you believe that it's ok for a trans-woman to sleep with a man, without telling them what they are first?

I will answer your question on the condition that you answer mine. I think it would be fair to be clear about that before having sex with a man who more than likely believes you were born a woman. (I also think it would be smart, because it's the trans woman who could be in real danger after being exposed. Look how outraged you guys are, and you're not in the cold light of the morning-after.) My question, as per above: Are there any men in that video you posted who claimed to have been fooled and then outraged by having had sex with this trans woman being discussed? Or is it really just those 2 women opining on it.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran, I can see that you don't believe that that "transexual woman" is a woman, but you do have to believe that she committedly lives as one, given that she had her penis removed. Additionally, I think it's fair to assume she wanted to have sex with these men. She's into men. Now, what would be the reason for, and how would it be equivalent, of a heterosexual man duping and having sex with a lesbian? Why would he want to have sex with a lesbian? And also, wouldn't she eventually realize he has a penis, and so is not a trans man? Thereby, the sex would be rape...unless he concealed it and it were other. But what would the benefit be? Who is this imagined person, who dresses like, what? a really butch dyke in order to pick up lesbians in a girls bar? Why, to take their money? Hmmm....

I know transexuals - and I'm not talking about the modish and deluded people who wear trans like a fancy costume but people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria - are trying to manage their condition by transitioning and living as the other gender. It's difficult for them and I sympathise - but they're still the gender they were born to. I think most of them realise this, but to transition is still the best way they can cope.

And I know the man in the video went fully committed and had surgery - but he would still have a moral obligation to a prospective sexual partner to come clean and tell them that he's actually a biological male. Heterosexual men are not attracted to biological men, they're attracted to the opposite sex, just as gay men are not attracted to biological women, and lesbians are not attracted to biological men. They're both attracted to people of the same sex.

There maybe exceptions, but generally this is the norm. You can imagine the level of repulsion and betrayal felt by somebody who has been deceived in this way.

As for my analogy, what do you mean, "why would a man want to have sex with a lesbian" - are you kidding!? Leaving aside them men who think that they're the cure for lesbianism, and if she only gives him a night, etc - hetero men are into women! Some of them will go to extreme lengths to have one, including lying. They believe that they can fill in the details later and make it right. And I agree with you - it's rape, and should be punished. Such a man is an outlier, I accept this - but so is the trans bloke passing himself off as being a member of the sex that the hetero bloke is looking for. This also could be classified as a sex crime, if people stop thinking ideologically and began to exam what's really going on here. So a man "picks up girls in strip clubs?" So what, if it's consensual? What's consensual about somebody deceiving a man into thinking he's picking up a woman, when he's being sexually used by a man? He hasn't consented to this...

 

[Federberg]

I will answer your question on the condition that you answer mine. I think it would be fair to be clear about that before having sex with a man who more than likely believes you were born a woman. (I also think it would be smart, because it's the trans woman who could be in real danger after being exposed. Look how outraged you guys are, and you're not in the cold light of the morning-after.) My question, as per above: Are there any men in that video you posted who claimed to have been fooled and then outraged by having had sex with this trans woman being discussed? Or is it really just those 2 women opining on it.

lol! Here we go! Now you're trying to place conditionality on an issue that's utterly irrelevant. If I expected better, I would get frustrated with this.

But I'll answer... I don't know, I don't care, I don't give a shit about where the men are. Any average joe would be able to infer that there is outrage. You grossly misunderstand men if you think that they would want to put themselves on video for posterity publicly admitting they were duped into having sex with a tranny. I can only imagine the shame and horror anyone who experienced that would feel. The fact that you're holding on to that argument (as if it means anything), shows how completely you've misunderstood the level of outrage a heterosexual man probably feels having had something like that happen to them You're quite literally making my point about why it's so important...

 

[Moxie]

lol! Here we go! Now you're trying to place conditionality on an issue that's utterly irrelevant. If I expected better, I would get frustrated with this.

But I'll answer... I don't know, I don't care, I don't give a shit about where the men are. Any average joe would be able to infer that there is outrage. You grossly misunderstand men if you think that they would want to put themselves on video for posterity publicly admitting they were duped into having sex with a tranny. I can only imagine the shame and horror anyone who experienced that would feel. The fact that you're holding on to that argument (as if it means anything), shows how completely you've misunderstood the level of outrage a heterosexual man probably feels having had something like that happen to them You're quite literally making my point about why it's so important...

Oh, I'm well aware of the level of outrage that heterosexual men feel on this issue, if only from you guys on this thread. But there's plenty out there in popular culture, in fiction and in the news to make it clear, as well. But you didn't really answer my question, because there IS a bit more to this than just a couple of women gossiping. I was actually asking. Still, it is kind of a gossipy Youtube channel very interested in driving up its subscriptions and likes.

 

[Moxie]

I know transexuals - and I'm not talking about the modish and deluded people who wear trans like a fancy costume but people who actually suffer from gender dysphoria - are trying to manage their condition by transitioning and living as the other gender. It's difficult for them and I sympathise - but they're still the gender they were born to. I think most of them realise this, but to transition is still the best way they can cope.

And I know the man in the video went fully committed and had surgery - but he would still have a moral obligation to a prospective sexual partner to come clean and tell them that he's actually a biological male. Heterosexual men are not attracted to biological men, they're attracted to the opposite sex, just as gay men are not attracted to biological women, and lesbians are not attracted to biological men. They're both attracted to people of the same sex.

There maybe exceptions, but generally this is the norm. You can imagine the level of repulsion and betrayal felt by somebody who has been deceived in this way.

As for my analogy, what do you mean, "why would a man want to have sex with a lesbian" - are you kidding!? Leaving aside them men who think that they're the cure for lesbianism, and if she only gives him a night, etc - hetero men are into women! Some of them will go to extreme lengths to have one, including lying. They believe that they can fill in the details later and make it right. And I agree with you - it's rape, and should be punished. Such a man is an outlier, I accept this - but so is the trans bloke passing himself off as being a member of the sex that the hetero bloke is looking for. This also could be classified as a sex crime, if people stop thinking ideologically and began to exam what's really going on here. So a man "picks up girls in strip clubs?" So what, if it's consensual? What's consensual about somebody deceiving a man into thinking he's picking up a woman, when he's being sexually used by a man? He hasn't consented to this...

A guy trying to have sex with a lesbian under false pretenses is equally wrong, though when you say they believe they can "fill in the details later and make it right" is probably the same as the trans woman thinking that she can find love the same way...both equally bone-headed. What if two straight people have consensual sex and one doesn't disclose that he/she is married? Is that a sex crime, or just one person being a deceptive jerk?

You guys keep saying that progressives think this is OK. I don't know why anyone would. I do not care that men pick up women in strip clubs, but my point above is that it's riskier behavior, and you may be picking up more than you bargained for, like an STD, or a trans woman. Most of those guys are drinking and perhaps not using their best judgement. They may well be thinking they're so attractive, and not quite realize that it comes with an exchange of money at the end. The woman in the video points out that it's dark in those clubs. Well, it's probably not so dark in the office where they get hired, so one might ask why the owners of the club don't do a better job of screening. Or, they don't care. Caveat emptor.

 

[Federberg]

Oh, I'm well aware of the level of outrage that heterosexual men feel on this issue, if only from you guys on this thread. But there's plenty out there in popular culture, in fiction and in the news to make it clear, as well. But you didn't really answer my question, because there IS a bit more to this than just a couple of women gossiping. I was actually asking. Still, it is kind of a gossipy Youtube channel very interested in driving up its subscriptions and likes.

Are you actually going to answer the question or not?

 

[Kieran]

A guy trying to have sex with a lesbian under false pretenses is equally wrong, though when you say they believe they can "fill in the details later and make it right" is probably the same as the trans woman thinking that she can find love the same way...both equally bone-headed. What if two straight people have consensual sex and one doesn't disclose that he/she is married? Is that a sex crime, or just one person being a deceptive jerk?

That’s a fellow being a deceptive jerk, or am I missing something? Are young maidens expecting marriage after a one night stand?

Two heterosexuals having consensual sex is different than a man deceiving anyone with regards to his sex, for sexual purposes. That’s sexual abuse.

You guys keep saying that progressives think this is OK. I don't know why anyone would. I do not care that men pick up women in strip clubs, but my point above is that it's riskier behavior, and you may be picking up more than you bargained for, like an STD, or a trans woman.
Most of those guys are drinking and perhaps not using their best judgement. They may well be thinking they're so attractive, and not quite realize that it comes with an exchange of money at the end. The woman in the video points out that it's dark in those clubs. Well, it's probably not so dark in the office where they get hired, so one might ask why the owners of the club don't do a better job of screening. Or, they don't care. Caveat emptor.

So if a young girl in a tight mini dress gets drunk on a night out, she deserves it if she’s raped? I thought we’d moved beyond victim-shaming when it comes to sex crimes?

 

[Moxie]

Are you actually going to answer the question or not?

I did, to Kieran. It's wrong.

 

[Moxie]

That’s a fellow being a deceptive jerk, or am I missing something? Are young maidens expecting marriage after a one night stand?

I didn't say it was the man occulting his marital status. Could be either.

Two heterosexuals having consensual sex is different than a man deceiving anyone with regards to his sex, for sexual purposes. That’s sexual abuse.


So if a young girl in a tight mini dress gets drunk on a night out, she deserves it if she’s raped? I thought we’d moved beyond victim-shaming when it comes to sex crimes?

I've already said that it's wrong of that person not to disclose their gender-status, in terms of allowing a person to make their own choices. You go to far too equate it with rape. And I believe only you are calling it a "sex crime." Plus, some of those guys may have been into it, and only claimed to have been unknowing once their girlfriends found out. (One of whom was pregnant, if you watched the video. The GFs were defending their men from this abomination, it seems. But I wonder how many men got whomped upside the head, in private.)

I understand that all of this palaver is about the horror you guys feel at the idea you might dog after a woman, only to find out you're attracted to a trans woman.

But to the larger point I made, which was why make this about progressives at all, as Federberg does in his OP. I don't see why anyone would condone what is at least dishonorable behavior. A transperson is a vile, selfish human being? Clutch my Progressive pearls! How can that be? I thought it was only possible from straight white men to be. Give me a break. This doesn't even belong on a PC thread, "serious" or otherwise, if you ask me, because that's not the issue, but it has become our unofficial trans outrage thread, so I get that it had no place else to go.

 

[Kieran]

I've already said that it's wrong of that person not to disclose their gender-status, in terms of allowing a person to make their own choices. You go too far to equate it with rape. And I believe only you are calling it a "sex crime."

Do you believe it’s a sex crime if a man agrees to wear a condom but slyly removes it before or during the act? I believe it is, and I believe that in some countries it is considered a sex crime. This despite the fact that the woman had consented to sex, but it’s accepted that she agreed to sex under her terms.

Now, you agree that the transperson should reveal that they’re not who the sex partner thinks they are - why do you think it’s wrong if they don’t? It’s because if they have led a man to believe that they’re the sex he’s attracted to, then they’ve abused him sexually.

You might try switch this around and blame the man for getting drunk or being a lousy individual who deserves it, but the fact is, he’s not attracted to men, and he was deceived into thinking he was with a man. We may agree that it would be great if people practiced abstinence more, but we can’t go calling women sluts after they’ve been raped - nor can we call men that.

I understand that all of this palaver is about the horror you guys feel at the idea you might dog after a woman, only to find out your attracted to a trans woman.

Nope. And again, you’re deliberately gaslighting. It might surprise you but men are such dogs they’ll have sex with a woman they’re not attracted to, just to have sex. And if they’re used by a fellow man deceptively, then they have a right to justice. It was not consensual. We call that a sex crime, when it happens.

And by the way, I notice you said above that you think the trans person should be honest beforehand because “it's the trans woman who could be in real danger after being exposed. Look how outraged you guys are, and you're not in the cold light of the morning-after.”

More gaslighting. Firstly, it’s not a woman, it’s a man, and as such is as likely to be as much a physical threat as the other man, maybe even more so, adding physical assault to sexual assault as something their victim has to contend with.

But to the larger point I made, which was why make this about progressives at all, as Federberg does in his OP.

Because progressives are the ones who think transwomen are real women, and that it’s okay to groom, mutilate and castrate young children to cement this evil ideology in society…

 

[Moxie]

Do you believe it’s a sex crime if a man agrees to wear a condom but slyly removes it before or during the act? I believe it is, and I believe that in some countries it is considered a sex crime. This despite the fact that the woman had consented to sex, but it’s accepted that she agreed to sex under her terms.

That is many kinds of wrong, I think we all agreed. I'm not sure I've ever heard that it's codified in law as a "sex crime," but you might look it up for us. Back in the day, and even still now, I think it's at least bordering on a crime when people have sex without exposing their HIV+ status, as another example. In both examples, we're talking about actual potential harm to the other person, one being risk of pregnancy, and both being risk of STD/HIV infection.

Now, you agree that the transperson should reveal that they’re not who the sex partner thinks they are - why do you think it’s wrong if they don’t? It’s because if they have led a man to believe that they’re the sex he’s attracted to, then they’ve abused him sexually.

That feels like a stretch on the definition of "sexual abuse," to me, but I see how strongly you and Federburg feel about it, so I'm not unwilling to entertain the idea.

You might try switch this around and blame the man for getting drunk or being a lousy individual who deserves it, but the fact is, he’s not attracted to men, and he was deceived into thinking he was with a man.

I think you mean that he was deceived into thinking "'he' was with a woman?" If so, I think you misgender the transperson, but that is a basic disagreement between us. (That's where the PC bit comes in.) I'm not blaming the men for getting drunk or being lousy individuals, nor did I ever say they deserved it. I think what I said was that they put themselves in dangerous situations, susceptible to many kinds of misdeed, such as shaming on the internet, which is what appears to be the main theme, if you actually watched the video. (Did you?)

We may agree that it would be great if people practiced abstinence more, but we can’t go calling women sluts after they’ve been raped - nor can we call men that.

I never said people should practice abstinence. I don't even have anything against the one-night stand. But if you are incautious, you will get surprises. Plenty of women sleep with men after a night in a bar who turn out to be complete tools, and vice-versa. Everyone is getting "ghosted" these days, which is just a modern word for what always happened, meaning you never hear from them again. There is a particular horror, I see, of men finding out that they're attracted to a trans woman, and finding out she's not the woman they thought she was. Well, just one more thing to be cautious about. And maybe know the strip clubs you got to before you go there and pick up "women." I've been to 3 strip clubs in my life, because we have ever done a wrap party there, before that would be out of the question, (Vancouver,) or because you do, in New Orleans, and once in New York, and I know they aren't all "women." How can that be lost on men who go to them surely more often than I have?

Nope. And again, you’re deliberately gaslighting. It might surprise you but men are such dogs they’ll have sex with a woman they’re not attracted to, just to have sex.

How is it gaslighting to state that you guys are horrified at the notion of men having sex with or being attracted to transwomen? You've both just said as much. Seriously, do you know what gaslighting means? Explain how I am gaslighting.

And no, it doesn't surprise me that men are those dogs. But isn't that why you guys are so freaked out? Because you'd put it in anywhere? With the horror of finding out after?

And if they’re used by a fellow man deceptively, then they have a right to justice. It was not consensual. We call that a sex crime, when it happens.

By a trans woman, well...I'll wait to see if the laws are changed. But I will go back again to this: the person who is risking real physical harm is the transwoman having sex with men who won't be happy to figure it out when they are in the same room. It's a risky game, and I wonder how many transwomen are willing to play it. And increasingly less, as they are allowed self-determination. They are finding their way out of sex work and into actual lives. This should make them less a threat to you straight men. That's a good thing, right?

And by the way, I notice you said above that you think the trans person should be honest beforehand because “it's the trans woman who could be in real danger after being exposed. Look how outraged you guys are, and you're not in the cold light of the morning-after.”

More gaslighting. Firstly, it’s not a woman, it’s a man, and as such is as likely to be as much a physical threat as the other man, maybe even more so, adding physical assault to sexual assault as something their victim has to contend with.

Again with the gaslighting. Please explain. I can't believe that I have to even try to give you more examples of transwomen being assaulted and murdered by straight men, than the opposite.

Because progressives are the ones who think transwomen are real women, and that it’s okay to groom, mutilate and castrate young children to cement this evil ideology in society…

I think trans women are trans women, but I honor their pronouns and choices. Your conviction that there is grooming, mutilating and castrating of young children going on is an extremist view, IMO. The notion of "grooming" is especially vile. No one wants their child to be trans. Quite frankly, they don't really want their kids to be gay, but they can accept it.

 

[Kieran]

That is many kinds of wrong, I think we all agreed. I'm not sure I've ever heard that it's codified in law as a "sex crime," but you might look it up for us. Back in the day, and even still now, I think it's at least bordering on a crime when people have sex without exposing their HIV+ status, as another example. In both examples, we're talking about actual potential harm to the other person, one being risk of pregnancy, and both being risk of STD/HIV infection.

That feels like a stretch on the definition of "sexual abuse," to me, but I see how strongly you and Federburg feel about it, so I'm not unwilling to entertain the idea.

Yes, we agree to an extent here, and there is harm being done to a person who has been deceived into committing a sexual act that they have not consented to.

I think you mean that he was deceived into thinking "'he' was with a woman?" If so, I think you misgender the transperson, but that is a basic disagreement between us..

I mistyped there, yes, but I didn’t misgender the trans person - both you and he did. He is still a man. His biological reality can’t be erased by far left ideology. You maybe susceptible to whatever new thing the left are into this week, but I’m not, thankfully. A small knowledge of biology is your friend - you can trust The Science here, at least.

I never said people should practice abstinence. I don't even have anything against the one-night stand. But if you are incautious, you will get surprises. Plenty of women sleep with men after a night in a bar who turn out to be complete tools, and vice-versa. Everyone is getting "ghosted" these days, which is just a modern word for what always happened, meaning you never hear from them again.

There is a particular horror, I see, of men finding out that they're attracted to a trans woman, and finding out she's not the woman they thought she was.

She’s not a woman at all, actually. I wonder have you moved further left with this stuff. A woman is an adult biological female. I’d be surprised if I have to say to you, “look it up”, when it comes to the word “woman.”

No wonder feminists are having it so hard these days when women themselves are giving up on what a woman is.

How is it gaslighting to state that you guys are horrified at the notion of men having sex with or being attracted to transwomen? You've both just said as much. Seriously, do you know what gaslighting means? Explain how I am gaslighting.


And no, it doesn't surprise me that men are those dogs. But isn't that why you guys are so freaked out? Because you'd put it in anywhere? With the horror of finding out after?

Yes I know what gaslighting is, so let me be very clear as to what I’ve been saying about heterosexual men: they’re attracted to sex, but only sex with a person of the opposite sex.

So when I say they’d put it in anywhere, or they’d do this, they’d do that, this is the context: “sex with a person of the opposite sex.” If they’re deceived by someone in this, it’s not their fault. But hetero men are not attracted to trans people or other men. And if they thought a transperson was actually a pretty woman, then tell them it’s actually a man and then ask them what they think about it.

They’re not interested in sex with men. It’s a repulsive notion to a straight man, as I’m sure that sex with a woman is to a gay man, and so on. I’m labouring this so it’s not misrepresented in future.

By a trans woman, well...I'll wait to see if the laws are changed. But I will go back again to this: the person who is risking real physical harm is the transwoman having sex with men who won't be happy to figure it out when they are in the same room. It's a risky game, and I wonder how many transwomen are willing to play it. And increasingly less, as they are allowed self-determination. They are finding their way out of sex work and into actual lives. This should make them less a threat to you straight men. That's a good thing, right?

Less a physical threat? Less a threat to mental health? Yes to both.

But of course, your tribe will fight this notion that trannies should declare themselves openly as being trans, because your tribe are pushing the notion that they’re actually women. And of course, men and women don’t pull out a medical card to verify that they are a man or a woman.

Again with the gaslighting. Please explain. I can't believe that I have to even try to give you more examples of transwomen being assaulted and murdered by straight men, than the opposite.

You’re trying to somehow change reality here to suit your argument. I cannot believe that you don’t know that incidents of rape, sexual assault and sexual violence against men are woefully under-reported. A straight man who mistook a transgender person for a woman would be very unlikely to tell anyone. And if the incident evolved into violence that went bad for him, he most likely would not report this either.

I think the same is true to a lesser extent for women, that most physical and sexual crimes like this are under-reported to police, but the stats are worse for men. So yes, a transgender man might overwhelm another man in this case. The difference is that the trans man might be more likely to report it if they’re beaten up. They don’t act or think like normal men.

I think trans women are trans women, but I honor their pronouns and choices. Your conviction that there is grooming, mutilating and castrating of young children going on is an extremist view, IMO. The notion of "grooming" is especially vile. No one wants their child to be trans. Quite frankly, they don't really want their kids to be gay, but they can accept it.

“No one” is a fairly definitively small number, one which is hard to believe. The blue haired activists who have been allowed to become therapists and professors and witnesses at Senate hearings, the leftist radicals who have been allowed to butcher young girls with underage mastectomies and chemical castrate young boys in their early teens - I would imagine they’re quite keen to sacrifice kids at the altar of their insane, deluded ideology.

It’s being taught in schools and it’s even infecting the medical profession. And all without the faintest smidge of science to back it up. Incredible, really…

 

[Kieran]

Obama gets it. Dems need to stop using identity politics. Virtue signalling, lecturing BS... It's really stupid, and it's exclusionary... politics 101

I suppose identity politics of some sort has always been with us, and in a way, it’s often useful, when it’s applied practically to help the poor, the infirm, or the aged, to group people in this way, where common problems or situations require an attempt to find common solutions.

But of course it gets weaponised by the usual bad faith people. On the right, we hear of people looking racially at IQ tests, and on the left we see studies relating to “whiteness”, but really from both of them we see racism, and of course racism in the past was always based on identity. With the prevailing culture nowadays being the left, controlling media, universities and schools, there’s easy pickings when it comes to pointing out bad ideas: anything they teach on race or gender you can exclude as being ideologically tainted. ID politics promotes racism, and rewards racists of all colours. It promotes injustice and rewards inequality. It’s unfair, and of course, in the hands of extremists it becomes a little like a complex board-game you might enjoy on St Stephen’s Day, while you digest your beer and Christmas pudding: “Oh well done Lola, you’re a Black Latinx trans illegal immigrant skoliosexual queer+ with a limp! You’re so good!”

The evil bastard devil child of ID politics insanity: intersectionality.

Identity politics as it’s practised now is the most pervasive, insincere and divisive political idea currently blocking the drains. It reduces people to their group identity, stereotypes them promiscuously, and actively creates and promotes unfairness. It creates systemic racism. It fossilises old bad ideas under a new disguise. Race hustlers like Ibram X Kendi get to spout their nonsense unchallenged. Gender tricksters are openly attempting to institutionalise a lie - and successfully too.

I suppose we’re heading towards something, but who knows what? The most excessive and illogical ideas that are taken seriously in America are encouraging extremists everywhere in the west. Some people haven’t accepted that the west is the most progressive and fair place in history. We see people who haven’t thought these things out, in Ireland now. I’m glad to see Obama speak out against it. I wish more people were equally logical and inquisitive about the things we’re being asked to accept, in politics…

 

[El Dude]

Having skimmed the last bunch of posts, there are a couple of things I'd like to add.

For one, there is this characterization of a "heterosexual man" as if all share the same traits, feelings, and proclivities. Sexuality and preference isn't always so clear, black and white, or binary. Perhaps the first clear elucidation of this--which while appearing simple compared to today's views, still works and illustrates the point--is the "Kinsey Scale," which is from 0 (exclusively heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual). The point being, sexual preference exists on a spectrum, not a binary.

Furthermore, not all heterosexual men are alike in terms of their feelings about sex with other men, or trans people. Some heterosexual men have no desire for other men, but also less disgust than is implied by some of the comments above. Even exclusively heterosexual people (a Kinsey 0) may vary to the degree to which they are repulsed by homosexuality. Or someone who has a "tinge of bisexuality" (a Kinsey 1) could still only ever have sex with the opposite gender, but be open to a homosexual experience, in the right context.

And of course Kinsey only offers one axis, and a relatively simple view of sexuality. There are countless possible variations, and every individual is different. You could be the gayest man on Earth but still be attracted to Barbra Streisand; or you could be exclusively heterosexual, but meet that one dude who gives you a completely unexpected "broner." And this doesn't even get into kinks, fetishes, etc, not to mention gloryholes ;-).

As far as the gender status of trans people, I sort of split the difference between the camps above. I don't agree with, to quote Kieran, the "radical left's" view that anyone who wants to be a woman is a woman, but also have no issue with trans women identifying as trans women. But that's where I differ from the left: I think a trans woman is a trans woman - not in the same category as biological woman, and thus I think the "trans" part should be included in terms of identification.

I also have no issue with trans people being trans. I mean, viva la difference. I don't have a problem with them trying to pass, as long as they aren't deceitful (e.g. in sexual encounters). But where I find this issue becoming a concern are in context where trans women, or policies around trans women, are either A) Involving dishonesty and/or sexual deceit, and B) Taking self-determination away from biological women.

As an example of the latter, let's take what might seem like one of the milder elements of the overall topic: bathrooms.The "radical left" might say, "Who cares about bathrooms? Let anyone use whatever bathroom they want - especially someone who identifies as a woman, regardless of whether she has a penis or not." In an ideal world where we have no hang-ups and where no one has ever been sexually abused, I would tend to agree with her and say that all bathrooms should just be co-ed (even if I tend to prefer not dropping a deuce with a woman in the stall next-door ).

But quite a number of women don't feel this way, and feel that a space of safety and privacy is being invaded by biological men. I mean, some statistics show that over 40% of all women have been sexually assaulted in some form or fashion, and as many as one-in-six women in the US have been raped (including attempted rape) - an astonishing figure. And most of those crimes are committed by men. Biologically male trans women are not exempt from "hypothetical rapist" status.

So for me, when some (many) women express hesitation about biological men/trans women sharing their bathrooms (or prisons), I don't write them off as being hung-up or transphobic or "Karens."

So this is a weird element of the trans issue: it isn't simply about trans activists vs. conservative Christians, it is also trans activists vs. gay activists, and trans activists vs. feminists (aka, the pejorative "TERFs"). This is where I think the more extreme trans activists are harming their own cause: Whether it is accusing men who won't date trans women as being "transphobic," or insisting that formerly women-only spaces are now open to biological men, or trans women participating in women's sports, etc. It isn't simply advocating for equal treatment; it is taking something away from others, be it a sense of safety and privacy, or self-determination and preference around sexuality, etc.

So I empathize with those women who are concerned about trans women (biological men) in women's bathrooms, even if it isn't an issue 99.9% of the time. And I even empathize with the view among some gay people that children are being "groomed" away from "traditional homosexuality," but transition as part of a cultural fad. I also empathize with the hypothetical heterosexual men who feel deceived by a trans woman.

 

[Federberg]

^please present those stats that over 40% of women have been sexually assaulted. I'm highly sceptical. I'll only concede the point if we also accept that a lot of those cases of alleged assault can also be claimed by men. I've been groped multiple times by women. Technically that's sexual assault, but I would never claim it as such. We live in an era of the glorification of victimhood. I find the whole thing completely disgusting. I don't disagree with most of what you say @El Dude. For the record I don't believe anyone here has an issue with the existence of trans. Where we draw the line is where society is forced to change our behaviour, expectations and language for these people. That's a step too far. When the laws are being changed to impose behavioural changes there's a problem. Where parents are being forced to accept the gender choices of their children that's a problem. I retain the belief that gender dysphoria is a mental issue, but if someone is an adult and wishes to change, go for it! Don't tell me a woman who has decided she's a man is a man. I'm not having it. Already we're starting to see some people claiming that sexual attraction to children is a thing, and should be sympathised with. I'm not fucking having it. But I fully expect in 10 years I'll be having arguments with the usual suspects spouting the next wave of progressive shit. There is right and there is wrong. It's not subject to fashion like some people seem to want