Serious PC thread

[Federberg]

stop telling me what my motivations are

It's annoying when people do that isn't it?

Well, now we know where you're landing.

I saw the humour, and no offence was taken. But I honestly don't know why anyone wouldn't want the things the Italian leader espoused in her speech. Celebration of our individuality. Opposing the denial of differences. The only social change the State should promote is equality of opportunity.

 

[tented]

Oh, and here's a nice little tid-bit of the state of American education (as evinced by the students):

“Nazis are not welcome in civil society,” said the Nazi.

 

[El Dude]

I think what you meant to say is that men are likely to report sexual assault less frequently. I'm not saying that they are victims as much as women, but there are reasons fundamentally built into who we are and social stigma that makes men far less likely to report these things. I'm just very careful these days because I used to take it as given that women were the primary victims of spousal violence until someone showed me the data.... it's almost 50 - 50! And if you change the definition from violence to abuse it probably flips the other way. There are consensus views about the male female dynamic that are wrong and we don't even know it...

While it is true that men are less likely to report, I do think that more women are sexually assaulted than men - at least outside of the prison system. But spousal violence is a different thing, and I'm not surprised that it is almost 50-50.

 

[Federberg]

While it is true that men are less likely to report, I do think that more women are sexually assaulted than men - at least outside of the prison system. But spousal violence is a different thing, and I'm not surprised that it is almost 50-50.

I don't disagree. I'm just saying that I have a suspicion that the numbers are far less tilted than consensus assumptions would lead us to believe. For example... someone posted the below on social media not that long ago. The response from a large proportion of the people was to mock this man and accuse him of lying. The posting is highly unusual as most men wouldn't even bother, but I've heard this type of thing far more frequently than one would think. Most people this happens to wouldn't even consider it to be assault because of the autonomic response. Just saying...

 

[Moxie]

I don't disagree. I'm just saying that I have a suspicion that the numbers are far less tilted than consensus assumptions would lead us to believe. For example... someone posted the below on social media not that long ago. The response from a large proportion of the people was to mock this man and accuse him of lying. The posting is highly unusual as most men wouldn't even bother, but I've heard this type of thing far more frequently than one would think. Most people this happens to wouldn't even consider it to be assault because of the autonomic response. Just saying...

View attachment 7277

Rape and sexual abuse happens to men as well as women. Non-consensual sex is wrong. Also, older women having sex with minor boys, however much it seems consensual, is abuse. I will be surprised, though, if you think it even approaches 50/50. You are one who keeps telling us not to change what we know to be true. So men get raped or abused at something like the same rate as women? Tell me you believe that.

 

[Federberg]

Rape and sexual abuse happens to men as well as women. Non-consensual sex is wrong. Also, older women having sex with minor boys, however much it seems consensual, is abuse. I will be surprised, though, if you think it even approaches 50/50. You are one who keeps telling us not to change what we know to be true. So men get raped or abused at something like the same rate as women? Tell me you believe that.

I don't recall saying it approaches 50/50, so you don't need to be surprised. But it does happen more than enough for the 'toxic masculinity' narratives from new wave feminists to be 'canceled'. For too long society has not pushed back at this. Language is power

 

[Moxie]

I don't recall saying it approaches 50/50, so you don't need to be surprised. But it does happen more than enough for the 'toxic masculinity' narratives from new wave feminists to be 'canceled'. For too long society has not pushed back at this. Language is power

Obviously, "toxic masculinity" is a loaded term. But there is the reality that men have held sway in the world, and wielded it over women since, basically forever. Do you have a problem with the evening out of the power base, to make it somewhat more fair? Do you have a problem admitting that, by-and-large, women have suffered more sexually humiliation, and, yes, abuse, than the reverse? I don't mind if you guys want to call out the unspoken abuse of men. It exists. Women are calling out years of abuse they have not been heard on. Is that not fair?

 

[Federberg]

men have held sway over the world and held sway over women? This is the typical bs that's getting intolerable. Men held sway of the world because the world was dangerous and needed to be tamed.... to protect women and children. That last bit is what is constantly ignored. The power base has been evened out, in fact one could make the case that the pendulum has swung the other way. Women might suffer sexual humiliation but they also exploit their sexuality at the same time, there's balance in everything. I see absolutely no reason why men in this current day and age should pay for the perceived injustices of the past. Miss me with that. We live in a world where women get punished less than men for the same crimes. They get infantilised, allowed not to hold themselves accountable, to promote misandry on social media that's far worse than anything this Andrew Tate character got de-platformed for and nobody blinks. Meanwhile there's a silent epidemic of male suicides happening underneath our eyes and no one gives a shit. Women like Amber Heard can destroy a man, with precious little criminal consequence, at least she's being made to pay in the civil courts. But when a man can go to jail because of paternity fraud and when the truth comes out there's no criminal punishment for the perpetrator? There's a problem. So miss me with female victimhood, there's victimisation going around and only women are permitted to whine about it. I believe in equality, equality requires accountability, but the sense I have from this new wave of feminism is that equality is desired only when it benefits, and that's just bullshit...

 

[Kieran]

Obviously, "toxic masculinity" is a loaded term. But there is the reality that men have held sway in the world, and wielded it over women since, basically forever. Do you have a problem with the evening out of the power base, to make it somewhat more fair? Do you have a problem admitting that, by-and-large, women have suffered more sexually humiliation, and, yes, abuse, than the reverse? I don't mind if you guys want to call out the unspoken abuse of men. It exists. Women are calling out years of abuse they have not been heard on. Is that not fair?

Now don’t forget that men have also been busy building all the cities we live in, dying in wars to keep us safe, deep diving into sewers to unblock your kitchen sinks, etc. I think it’s time more appreciation and gratitude was shown for men, and all their great achievements too, especially in the western world.

Yes, I agree that “toxic masculinity” is a loaded term. It’s yet another gift from the toxic left, alongside gems such as “White privilege”, “white guilt”, “cisgender” and any other nonsense that comes from modern ideas about gender and race. These are all loaded dice which the intellectually uninquisitive or ideologically bound tend to accept as if they’re actually “things”.

But! I agree about sexual abuse. Men are more aggressive and promiscuous by nature, so it would make horrible sense that their predatory instincts would be more likely to go awry in terrible ways. But it’s also true that men would be less likely to report it if they were sexually assaulted, so we won’t know the exact numbers on these things. But given that homosexuals comprise a small percentage of people, then assaults by sexually abusive homosexuals on other men would be even smaller…

 

[Federberg]

I have no words....

 

[tented]

I have no words....

I thought this must be a joke, then I found this:

 

[Federberg]

I thought this must be a joke, then I found this:

I can't understand any world where this shit is taking society forward. It's so fucked up, I keep waiting for someone to let me in on the joke...

 

[Moxie]

I don't recall saying it approaches 50/50, so you don't need to be surprised. But it does happen more than enough for the 'toxic masculinity' narratives from new wave feminists to be 'canceled'. For too long society has not pushed back at this. Language is power

It's true...you were talking about spousal abuse being about 50/50. And I do understand the issues with men reporting spousal/partner abuse, as in men feeling it impugns their masculinity, or that they fear that they'll be accused of getting because they have given. But if you dig into it, categories include shoving, punching, hitting with objects, (like Hilary hitting Bill with a lamp, but he DID deserve it, LOL...sorry, just injecting a little levity.) As this is a sports forum, there is a lot of talk around here how women are smaller and physically less strong than men. You get my point on that here. Now, psychological violence is another thing, and you don't have to be physically stronger to inflict it. Just cruel, controlling and crafty, and certainly women can be all of those things. However, on the more violent end of the spectrum, stalking, rape and murder, the statistics for women as victims, (and we're just talking about intimate partner violence here,) tends to be a lot higher, even accounting for a certain amount of underreporting by men. (The issue of IPV rape has basically no statistics, and remember that some of these statistics include same-sex partners.)

I understand your point in calling out that women aren't the only victims of intimate partner violence, or of physical/psychological sexual violence, in general, but it would be fair to keep some perspective on it.

 

[Moxie]

Now don’t forget that men have also been busy building all the cities we live in, dying in wars to keep us safe, deep diving into sewers to unblock your kitchen sinks, etc. I think it’s time more appreciation and gratitude was shown for men, and all their great achievements too, especially in the western world.

*Sigh* We like men. Most all of us. I'm sorry you're suddenly feeling so under-appreciated. But, while it may have escaped your notice, women also have begun building the cities we live in, dying in wars to keep us safe, and yes, diving in sewers and building roads. Why? Because, in part, those are good jobs that afford lots of opportunity and good pay. And a chance to serve the country. They've just been only more recently allowed to do those jobs.

Yes, I agree that “toxic masculinity” is a loaded term. It’s yet another gift from the toxic left, alongside gems such as “White privilege”, “white guilt”, “cisgender” and any other nonsense that comes from modern ideas about gender and race. These are all loaded dice which the intellectually uninquisitive or ideologically bound tend to accept as if they’re actually “things”.

I'm sorry, some of those ARE actually things that deserve diving into. I don't think it is either intellectually uninquisitive or ideologically blinkered to ask questions about the heretofore status quo. You may not like the buzz-terms, but I'm sure you'd agree with digging into the notions. You're one who tells us to question the motivations behind Big Pharma, for example, on Covid vaccines. Would you say it's unfair to discuss that white people have been privileged in the West for a long time?

But! I agree about sexual abuse. Men are more aggressive and promiscuous by nature, so it would make horrible sense that their predatory instincts would be more likely to go awry in terrible ways. But it’s also true that men would be less likely to report it if they were sexually assaulted, so we won’t know the exact numbers on these things. But given that homosexuals comprise a small percentage of people, then assaults by sexually abusive homosexuals on other men would be even smaller…

I appreciate your backing this point up, which I addressed with @Federberg, above. I'm not against addressing the way men are assaulted and abused, especially as it tends to be underreported.

 

[Kieran]

*Sigh* We like men. Most all of us. I'm sorry you're suddenly feeling so under-appreciated.

What? Who said I’m feeling under appreciated? How did you come to draw this conclusion? Or is this your debate strategy, to try make the person you disagree with seem like they’re somehow fragile or at fault if they disagree with you?

What I’m saying is that people who under-appreciate men need to grow up and accept what men have done for them - we even gave you all the sports that you want equal pay in. And believe me, there are people who under appreciate men. Just in the same way that men need to appreciate women more. Some women need to appreciate women more too, by the looks of it. Defending the fad that has men wearing dresses and attacking what it means to be a woman is an existential threat to women everywhere in the west, and is neither defending those men or women - it’s merely a defence of a bad tribe, politically.

But, while it may have escaped your notice, women also have begun building the cities we live in, dying in wars to keep us safe, and yes, diving in sewers and building roads. Why? Because, in part, those are good jobs that afford lots of opportunity and good pay. And a chance to serve the country. They've just been only more recently allowed to do those jobs.

Women have built which cities? Even in the ancient world, male slaves were out to use in construction because they were stronger and better for it.

But yes, it’s good that women are getting opportunities to work in construction and down in sewers and get shot at in wars. Men have been doing all of this forever, and being under appreciated for doing so. Women still however, are not going into these types of STEM jobs at the same rate as young men are, which is understandable. Women have different talents than men, and there are certain industries where there are far more women than men, and it’s better that way.

I'm sorry, some of those ARE actually things that deserve diving into. I don't think it is either intellectually uninquisitive or ideologically blinkered to ask questions about the heretofore status quo. You may not like the buzz-terms, but I'm sure you'd agree with digging into the notions. You're one who tells us to question the motivations behind Big Pharma, for example, on Covid vaccines. Would you say it's unfair to discuss that white people have been privileged in the West for a long time?

I love the idea of people questioning things, but “whiteness studies” and the modern race ideas being pushed by people like Ibram X Kendi aren’t examples of people questioning things, they’re examples of people passing judgment on white people, based on their colour - which is racism. I’ve even seen these hustlers say that black peoples can’t be racist because racism is all about power, which is really a stupid thing to say. White privilege is a particularly toxic idea, one which I’ve even seen used against homeless white people. The fact is that “The West” is probably between 70 and 80% white, so how else could it be but that white people are prominent, especially given that it was once even more white? And if we’re hearing these terms by people who are simply and in all innocence “inquisitive”, then do we hear them make the same inquiry about other demographics in the west? No, because these demographics are perpetually noble victims of “whiteness”. You really couldn’t make up this shit and get away with it, except that they are getting away with it, aided and abetted by the deranged modern left.

No, this isn’t about inquisitiveness, it’s about bad politics, bad ideas, and revenge. They should start by being inquisitive about their ideological beliefs, then try to understand why the west is the way it is, because this constant negative racial profiling of white peoples will inevitably give the worst white racists a reason to bite back.

One simple thing they might bite back with is to present the fact that the largely white west is the most progressive, fair and wealthy place in history. No matter what demographic you belong to, even fictional ones like trans, you have rights and opportunity in the west far beyond anything that might get you elsewhere. All largely thanks to boring old under-appreciated but brilliant and brave white men.

I appreciate your backing this point up, which I addressed with @Federberg, above. I'm not against addressing the way men are assaulted and abused, especially as it tends to be underreported.

Sexual abuse is about power, I believe, and so will unfortunately always be with us. Domestic abuse figures might be accurate in saying that men are as likely to be abused as women, especially if the abuse is mental abuse. I don’t know the stats on this though, so I don’t disagree with @Federberg in what he’s saying. We just don’t hear enough about abuse of men, and I’d say that this is related to the many other bad ideas that are proliferating in the west…

 

[Kieran]

I thought this must be a joke, then I found this:

What’s depressing about this article, apart from its contents, is that the Daily Mail seems to have swallowed the idea that this is a woman with a penis.

From the article:

• Comic, who was assigned male at birth, performed sketch on Friday Night Live
• She plays keyboard in expletive-filled song about experience as a trans woman

Assigned male at birth? I wonder was it because of the same penis that even now gives the game away that she is in fact a he? We are not helping mentally ill people by agreeing with them in this stuff. We’re creating a crisis that will be impossible to fix if we keep accepting the terms and conditions of this nonsense…

 

[Federberg]

It's true...you were talking about spousal abuse being about 50/50. And I do understand the issues with men reporting spousal/partner abuse, as in men feeling it impugns their masculinity, or that they fear that they'll be accused of getting because they have given. But if you dig into it, categories include shoving, punching, hitting with objects, (like Hilary hitting Bill with a lamp, but he DID deserve it, LOL...sorry, just injecting a little levity.) As this is a sports forum, there is a lot of talk around here how women are smaller and physically less strong than men. You get my point on that here. Now, psychological violence is another thing, and you don't have to be physically stronger to inflict it. Just cruel, controlling and crafty, and certainly women can be all of those things. However, on the more violent end of the spectrum, stalking, rape and murder, the statistics for women as victims, (and we're just talking about intimate partner violence here,) tends to be a lot higher, even accounting for a certain amount of underreporting by men. (The issue of IPV rape has basically no statistics, and remember that some of these statistics include same-sex partners.)

I understand your point in calling out that women aren't the only victims of intimate partner violence, or of physical/psychological sexual violence, in general, but it would be fair to keep some perspective on it.

the data is quite clear that within IPV the extreme tail of the normal distribution skews towards male perpetrators, I can certainly concede that point. That's natural given the differences between the sexes and the predisposition for violence among males - a necessary predisposition from primordial times. But if you study government data the numbers are in the 55 - 45 range, not the 80 - 20 that some feminists would like the narrative to be. So, if you want to be fair... be fair. This was an observation from the woman who created the first women's shelters that seems to have been forgotten. She was stunned by it and was forever changed by it. Needless to say, she's not welcome in feminist circles.

I note you didn't challenge my other observations, I salute you for that

 

[Federberg]

*Sigh* We like men. Most all of us. I'm sorry you're suddenly feeling so under-appreciated.

Patronise much?? The fact that you brought up the usual talking points is all the evidence needed to show that the efforts of men are not appreciated. And the way you presented that response makes it quite clear that you think this is trivial, and you're trying to flip it back as shaming strategy. That first paragraph lost you any credibility. Yet you clearly expect us to be subsumed by the female victimhood paradigm. Forget that..

But, while it may have escaped your notice, women also have begun building the cities we live in, dying in wars to keep us safe, and yes, diving in sewers and building roads. Why? Because, in part, those are good jobs that afford lots of opportunity and good pay. And a chance to serve the country. They've just been only more recently allowed to do those jobs.

women are not doing these jobs in statistically significant numbers (and by the way that's the main explanation for the gender pay gap). Partly because there's a lack of interest from women, and partly because as you conceded women are the weaker sex and are generally unsuitable for a lot of the tasks. No, that's not sexism, that's just life. And miss me with coming back at me about that observation, you're asking for credit for what a minority of women are doing now, and at the same time you want to hold the entire male gender accountable for what a minority of miscreants do. The utter inequity of that way of thinking is outrageous if you pause and think about it

 

[britbox]

I'll have to disagree with my fellow males here - I don't think Moxie hates men. Quite the opposite. Moxie likes men - she wants to do the traditional jobs they do, she wants the same roles they carry out, and wants to support other women who'd like to become men. It's the ancient traditional feminine that Moxie doesn't like - not men.

 

[Federberg]

I'll have to disagree with my fellow males here - I don't think Moxie hates men. Quite the opposite. Moxie likes men - she wants to do the traditional jobs they do, she wants the same roles they carry out, and wants to support other women who'd like to become men. It's the ancient traditional feminine that Moxie doesn't like - not men.

not sure I've stated that I think that Moxie hates men. I do think that a lot of people, not just women, are seduced by the narratives that feminists have manufactured over the years. I think that narrative is very satisfying for a lot of folks, and thus a lie takes root in the minds of the masses. It creates a bias, that most of us men just shrug off and don't contest. I'll admit to having been a part of it. I'll be honest, I've only really sat down and taken note following the Amber Heard thing. And also hearing about a case of a guy who was put in jail because his ex-partner wanted him to pay child support. It turns out the kid wasn't his, and his ex knew very well that was the case. Took the dude 5 years to get out, 5 years! And what were the repercussions for the women? Sweet fuck all! What kind of a world is this? Men can have their lives destroyed on a false premise and there are no consequences? What the fuck??

So if I hear anyone trying to promote the same lazy nonsense, I've got zero tolerance anymore. No apologies...