Nadal: 2010 vs. 2013

[Front242]

Hard to get over the nonsense that guy has displayed over the years I'm afraid.

Maybe if Roger had been able to beat him once or twice you'd feel a bit better, eh? :smooch

This has nothing to do with Roger and actually one of the examples of nonsense I was thinking of was actually in a match Roger won at Indian Wells 2012 where the "humble bull" (or maybe constipated bull) was so gracious as to go and take a dump before Roger served for the match. Thankfully his cunning ploy didn't work that time but he got the desired result in 2 matches at Wimbledon 2010 alright and knew it was all or nothing on the fast grass of week 1 to get through and he used every trick at his disposal to win those two matches.

Front, you've catalogued these few moments that you cry gamesmanship on, and replay them over and over. And you also claim to know what was going on with a player. (To the point of believing that you know what happened in Nadal's toilet break. :gross: - and, frankly, I think you've spent WAY too much time thinking about it.) While these stories become old and tattered, you continue to trot them out. I'd say the reason is obvious. :dodgy:

And then there's Fiero, riding on the coattails of a good Nadal slagging…and why? Because he's the nemesis of his favorite, as well. Where is the hew and cry for the changing of rules, then?

Murray took a toilet break after he lost 2 sets to Djokovic in the 2012 USO and gave himself a stern talking-to, which seemed to work. But, in a match that long, he probably needed one anyway. And after Roger lost the 5th set to Safin in the AO semi, he had a MTO to have his back worked on. Probably needed it, eh, Front? No reason to think it was cleverly timed to mess with the head of a guy with a notoriously iffy head. (And I doubt you'd be putting an asterisk on Roger's subsequent AO title had he survived that SF.)

Sometimes players need to go to the toilet, (best not to ask why,) and sometimes they have worries about their bodies. It's wrong to ascribe "gamesmanship" to some, and not to others, or certainly to be so sure about it.

Murray's toilet break was AFTER the 2nd set when they're quite entitled to go for a toilet break. You don't maybe think running off BEFORE your opponent serves for the match is worse?! Just about everyone knows it was not sporting behaviour. Fed's MTO after he lost the 5th set was very well timed too I must say

 

[Front242]

The irony and most hilarious thing which I've only just spotted now is...trumpet roll...guess who won the Stefan Edberg Sportsmanship Award in 2010 in arguably his most questionable year for bad sportsmanship?! LOL! Probably only 'cos of Berdych's vote for Nadal instead of Federer that year and as a Fed fan I can admit Federer was wrong to cite a bad back in his loss to Berdych that year at Wimbledon. Many/most Nadal fans unfortunately have major issues admitting he was ever wrong with his actions or what he said.

http://tennischeck.blogspot.ie/p/stefan-edberg-sportsmanship-award-voted.html

Anyway, enjoy the anomaly of Sportsmanship Awards for Nadal as the players vote for these and guess who they voted for 9 times versus the anomaly of once likely dictated by Berdych's vote? Guess that means they don't think Senior Nadal is too sporting either so it's clearly not just Federer fans!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_Awards

 

[Moxie]

Front, you've catalogued these few moments that you cry gamesmanship on, and replay them over and over. And you also claim to know what was going on with a player. (To the point of believing that you know what happened in Nadal's toilet break. :gross: - and, frankly, I think you've spent WAY too much time thinking about it.) While these stories become old and tattered, you continue to trot them out. I'd say the reason is obvious. :dodgy:

And then there's Fiero, riding on the coattails of a good Nadal slagging…and why? Because he's the nemesis of his favorite, as well. Where is the hew and cry for the changing of rules, then?

Murray took a toilet break after he lost 2 sets to Djokovic in the 2012 USO and gave himself a stern talking-to, which seemed to work. But, in a match that long, he probably needed one anyway. And after Roger lost the 5th set to Safin in the AO semi, he had a MTO to have his back worked on. Probably needed it, eh, Front? No reason to think it was cleverly timed to mess with the head of a guy with a notoriously iffy head. (And I doubt you'd be putting an asterisk on Roger's subsequent AO title had he survived that SF.)

Sometimes players need to go to the toilet, (best not to ask why,) and sometimes they have worries about their bodies. It's wrong to ascribe "gamesmanship" to some, and not to others, or certainly to be so sure about it.

Murray's toilet break was AFTER the 2nd set when they're quite entitled to go for a toilet break. You don't maybe think running off BEFORE your opponent serves for the match is worse?! Just about everyone knows it was not sporting behaviour. Fed's MTO after he lost the 5th set was very well timed too I must say

Murray took a toilet break and yelled at himself before the start of the 5th set, according to tennis.com. Frankly, I DO think that going for a toilet break before your opponent serves for the match is dodgy. What I AM saying is that Nadal is not the only person to take opportunistic advantage of a good time for a break, and, therefore, you have no reason to scream "dirty cheat!" at the top of your lungs over Nadal's choices, in a few select matches, when others have taken the same option, including those you admire. They're working within the rules. If the other player can't maintain concentration, or play better for long enough, does that really mean that the other guy "cheated" his way to a win? I think no, especially in 5-set tennis, which is a game of wits, wills and endurance.

 

[Moxie]

The irony and most hilarious thing which I've only just spotted now is...trumpet roll...guess who won the Stefan Edberg Sportsmanship Award in 2010 in arguably his most questionable year for bad sportsmanship?! LOL! Probably only 'cos of Berdych's vote for Nadal instead of Federer that year and as a Fed fan I can admit Federer was wrong to cite a bad back in his loss to Berdych that year at Wimbledon. Many/most Nadal fans unfortunately have major issues admitting he was ever wrong with his actions or what he said.

http://tennischeck.blogspot.ie/p/stefan-edberg-sportsmanship-award-voted.html

Anyway, enjoy the anomaly of Sportsmanship Awards for Nadal as the players vote for these and guess who they voted for 9 times versus the anomaly of once likely dictated by Berdych's vote? Guess that means they don't think Senior Nadal is too sporting either so it's clearly not just Federer fans!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_World_Tour_Awards

You can believe that Berdych swayed the vote based on the reportage of a random blog. Or, you might accept that you're just wrong. Berdych seems unlikely to move an entire vote. So you're probably wrong about Nadal's sportsmanship in this year you keep bringing up. If you give so much credence to the vote of the players, (since you're so proud that Roger got it,) you should trust it for that year.

 

[Iona16]

Front, you've catalogued these few moments that you cry gamesmanship on, and replay them over and over. And you also claim to know what was going on with a player. (To the point of believing that you know what happened in Nadal's toilet break. :gross: - and, frankly, I think you've spent WAY too much time thinking about it.) While these stories become old and tattered, you continue to trot them out. I'd say the reason is obvious. :dodgy:

And then there's Fiero, riding on the coattails of a good Nadal slagging…and why? Because he's the nemesis of his favorite, as well. Where is the hew and cry for the changing of rules, then?

Murray took a toilet break after he lost 2 sets to Djokovic in the 2012 USO and gave himself a stern talking-to, which seemed to work. But, in a match that long, he probably needed one anyway. And after Roger lost the 5th set to Safin in the AO semi, he had a MTO to have his back worked on. Probably needed it, eh, Front? No reason to think it was cleverly timed to mess with the head of a guy with a notoriously iffy head. (And I doubt you'd be putting an asterisk on Roger's subsequent AO title had he survived that SF.)

Sometimes players need to go to the toilet, (best not to ask why,) and sometimes they have worries about their bodies. It's wrong to ascribe "gamesmanship" to some, and not to others, or certainly to be so sure about it.

Murray's toilet break was AFTER the 2nd set when they're quite entitled to go for a toilet break. You don't maybe think running off BEFORE your opponent serves for the match is worse?! Just about everyone knows it was not sporting behaviour. Fed's MTO after he lost the 5th set was very well timed too I must say

Murray took a toilet break and yelled at himself before the start of the 5th set, according to tennis.com. Frankly, I DO think that going for a toilet break before your opponent serves for the match is dodgy. What I AM saying is that Nadal is not the only person to take opportunistic advantage of a good time for a break, and, therefore, you have no reason to scream "dirty cheat!" at the top of your lungs over Nadal's choices, in a few select matches, when others have taken the same option, including those you admire. They're working within the rules. If the other player can't maintain concentration, or play better for long enough, does that really mean that the other guy "cheated" his way to a win? I think no, especially in 5-set tennis, which is a game of wits, wills and endurance.

Murray did take a toilet break after the 4th set. You're right Moxie. To be honest I still can't get over Djokovic getting a MTO when Murray was about to serve for the championship. I may have called him a few names that night. He didn't do anything wrong though. He was entitled to get a MTO.

 

[Moxie]

Front, you've catalogued these few moments that you cry gamesmanship on, and replay them over and over. And you also claim to know what was going on with a player. (To the point of believing that you know what happened in Nadal's toilet break. :gross: - and, frankly, I think you've spent WAY too much time thinking about it.) While these stories become old and tattered, you continue to trot them out. I'd say the reason is obvious. :dodgy:

And then there's Fiero, riding on the coattails of a good Nadal slagging…and why? Because he's the nemesis of his favorite, as well. Where is the hew and cry for the changing of rules, then?

Murray took a toilet break after he lost 2 sets to Djokovic in the 2012 USO and gave himself a stern talking-to, which seemed to work. But, in a match that long, he probably needed one anyway. And after Roger lost the 5th set to Safin in the AO semi, he had a MTO to have his back worked on. Probably needed it, eh, Front? No reason to think it was cleverly timed to mess with the head of a guy with a notoriously iffy head. (And I doubt you'd be putting an asterisk on Roger's subsequent AO title had he survived that SF.)

Sometimes players need to go to the toilet, (best not to ask why,) and sometimes they have worries about their bodies. It's wrong to ascribe "gamesmanship" to some, and not to others, or certainly to be so sure about it.

Murray's toilet break was AFTER the 2nd set when they're quite entitled to go for a toilet break. You don't maybe think running off BEFORE your opponent serves for the match is worse?! Just about everyone knows it was not sporting behaviour. Fed's MTO after he lost the 5th set was very well timed too I must say

Murray took a toilet break and yelled at himself before the start of the 5th set, according to tennis.com. Frankly, I DO think that going for a toilet break before your opponent serves for the match is dodgy. What I AM saying is that Nadal is not the only person to take opportunistic advantage of a good time for a break, and, therefore, you have no reason to scream "dirty cheat!" at the top of your lungs over Nadal's choices, in a few select matches, when others have taken the same option, including those you admire. They're working within the rules. If the other player can't maintain concentration, or play better for long enough, does that really mean that the other guy "cheated" his way to a win? I think no, especially in 5-set tennis, which is a game of wits, wills and endurance.

Murray did take a toilet break after the 4th set. You're right Moxie. To be honest I still can't get over Djokovic getting a MTO when Murray was about to serve for the championship. I may have called him a few names that night. He didn't do anything wrong though. He was entitled to get a MTO.

Well pointed-out, Iona. I'd forgotten that one. Folks really do throw stones, selectively, from their glass houses.

 

[Moxie]

Fed's MTO after he lost the 4th set was very well timed too I must say

I'm not going to let you get away with this one with a little (raspberry) emoticon. Your hair has been on fire for 4 years about a couple of dodgy (in your opinion) MTAs from Nadal, and yet you give this one a minor nod, when I point it out. Certainly, our conversation might have been different had Federer won that match, but I think you're a hypocrite to let that one pass with no more than essentially an "oh, yeah."

EDIT: Fixed. It was after the 4th set.

 

[DarthFed]

^ What exactly is wrong with getting medical attention after losing a match? How does this compare to questionable (at best) MTO's when the other player has momentum during a match?

 

[Moxie]

^ What exactly is wrong with getting medical attention after losing a match? How does this compare to questionable (at best) MTO's when the other player has momentum during a match?

We're not talking about getting medical attention after losing a match. Front misspoke. Fed took a MTO after the FOURTH set v. Safin. Roger had a MP in the 4th, which Marat saved, then went on to win the set, and take it to the decider. At which point, Roger took a MTO for his back. So, yes, good question: what about a MTO when the other player has momentum in the match?

It seems unfair to be outraged by one, and yet withhold it for another.

 

[tented]

^ And don't forget Roger's bathroom break in the 2010 AO quarterfinal against Davydenko, when he was getting his ass handed to him by the Russian. Roger was bothered by the sun, so he took a longer than necessary bathroom break to give it time to pass. He even admitted this was a tactic.

"When the sun comes from the side, the ball seems half the size and is just hard to hit. I never take toilet breaks, but I thought 'Why not?'

I just hoped that with every minute it took, the sun would move another centimeter."

 

[Kieran]

Bloody hilarious! Saint Roger? I don't believe it.

I'm sure Front will tell us why this was okay...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Pity Philipp Petzschner's ranking has plummeted. Would be nice to see him in the draw all the same. He was robbed in 2010.

There are certain things you need to get over Front. Petzschner and Soderling are among them. Oh, and Daniel Brands' effort at Roland Garros last year. Darcis too.

Your boy Dustin Brown on the other hand...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Pity Philipp Petzschner's ranking has plummeted. Would be nice to see him in the draw all the same. He was robbed in 2010.

He wasn't robbed; he lost. Tennis isn't a judged competition.

He was downright robbed because of all the MTOs Nadal took for no apparent ailment before or after. He took one himself just to p1$$ Nadal off and give him a taste of his own medicine but he wasn't winning that match without all the blatant cheating that day. He did it the match before against Haase too when losing. He was getting battered by Petzschner's aces and forehand and he knew exactly what he needed to do to "win". You may not want to class it cheating as it's sadly within the rules but should not be but imo it was nothing but cowardice and cheating.

There was one medical time out. What are you talking about?

Nadal took his -- admittedly shady -- medical time out at 2-1 in the fourth. Even if Petzschner was thrown off, he still had nearly two full sets to reassert himself.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Hard to get over the nonsense that guy has displayed over the years I'm afraid if you're a Federer fan.

Fixed.

 

[brokenshoelace]

As I said, anyone who isn't blinded by Nadal's every action could clearly see what he did to win those matches against Haase and Petzschner. Try defending taking a toilet break before your opponent serves for the match?! Knowing full well how much of a mental edge he has on Federer, that was a pretty low thing to do most people who aren't blind or biased would agree. He was clearly hoping Federer would have a concentration lapse, get broken, then back on level terms and then he'd likely then have not only won set 2, but probably won set 3 by a margin of 6-1 or 6-2. He knew exactly was he was doing on in all of these matches and there are numerous others in his career too. Worship him if you want, the non blinded tennis viewers can see right through his antics.

Hey Front, if you want to call people blind while claiming to be objective, the least you can do is not spread false information.

Nadal never took a medical timeout against Haase. He just beat him in five sets.

 

[brokenshoelace]

It's amazing to watch you run with this one, Front, as if you're a neutral party.

You hate the guy. We get it.

It happened four years ago. It was within the rules.

No excuses for losses, right? So none for whoever it was you're defending either (I've forgotten who he was)...

I mentioned 3 acts of unsporting antics/behaviour and 4 MTOs were taken in the match against Petzschner. I don't care if it happened 250 years ago and I know it's within the rules (but it shouldn't be and certainly not more than one MTO per match, and for an invisible injury that shows no signs before or after in terms of his movement I might add) but you'd think one MTO would be bad enough but yet the t**t had go and take 3 more and yet you think this is somehow fair?!

Where the hell are you getting your information from? He took one medical timeout in that match. That's it. This is embarrassingly ridiculous. I've literally just checked this, he took one at 2-1 in the fourth set. Four medical timeouts? You're not even allowed to do that.

This new "let's just make up something and pretend it's true" was Mastoor's sthick, never yours.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Front, you've catalogued these few moments that you cry gamesmanship on, and replay them over and over. And you also claim to know what was going on with a player. (To the point of believing that you know what happened in Nadal's toilet break. :gross: - and, frankly, I think you've spent WAY too much time thinking about it.) While these stories become old and tattered, you continue to trot them out. I'd say the reason is obvious. :dodgy:

And then there's Fiero, riding on the coattails of a good Nadal slagging…and why? Because he's the nemesis of his favorite, as well. Where is the hew and cry for the changing of rules, then?

Murray took a toilet break after he lost 2 sets to Djokovic in the 2012 USO and gave himself a stern talking-to, which seemed to work. But, in a match that long, he probably needed one anyway. And after Roger lost the 5th set to Safin in the AO semi, he had a MTO to have his back worked on. Probably needed it, eh, Front? No reason to think it was cleverly timed to mess with the head of a guy with a notoriously iffy head. (And I doubt you'd be putting an asterisk on Roger's subsequent AO title had he survived that SF.)

Sometimes players need to go to the toilet, (best not to ask why,) and sometimes they have worries about their bodies. It's wrong to ascribe "gamesmanship" to some, and not to others, or certainly to be so sure about it.

Murray's toilet break was AFTER the 2nd set when they're quite entitled to go for a toilet break. You don't maybe think running off BEFORE your opponent serves for the match is worse?! Just about everyone knows it was not sporting behaviour. Fed's MTO after he lost the 5th set was very well timed too I must say

Murray took a toilet break and yelled at himself before the start of the 5th set, according to tennis.com. Frankly, I DO think that going for a toilet break before your opponent serves for the match is dodgy. What I AM saying is that Nadal is not the only person to take opportunistic advantage of a good time for a break, and, therefore, you have no reason to scream "dirty cheat!" at the top of your lungs over Nadal's choices, in a few select matches, when others have taken the same option, including those you admire. They're working within the rules. If the other player can't maintain concentration, or play better for long enough, does that really mean that the other guy "cheated" his way to a win? I think no, especially in 5-set tennis, which is a game of wits, wills and endurance.

Murray did take a toilet break after the 4th set. You're right Moxie. To be honest I still can't get over Djokovic getting a MTO when Murray was about to serve for the championship. I may have called him a few names that night. He didn't do anything wrong though. He was entitled to get a MTO.

You know, I'd completely forgotten about that. The reason I bring that up actually, is not to point fingers at Novak, but rather, to highlight how much perception, propaganda (strong word, I admit, but I can't find a suitable replacement), and people crying over something affects things and distorts reality.

For example, I've heard so much whining about Nadal's medical timeout in the 4th set of a round 3 match against Petzschner, that it just stuck with me. I'll always remember that he took a medical timeout in that match, because I keep being reminded that he did...and that was 4 years ago.

Yet, Novak takes a medical timeout before his opponent served for his first Grand Slam championship, and nobody mentions a single word about it.

Even weirder, literally all of the questionable medical timeouts people bring up abut Nadal are from 4 years ago or more. You know who else was famous for being "quick to call the trainer" back then, as Roddick put it? Djokovic.

Yet, I don't hear Front writing essays about that. So yeah, Front buddy, I like you, but I'll go ahead call Bull$hit on you being objective re: Nadal.

Anyway, this is really not an attempt to criticize Djokovic as I've long conceded that I thought some of Nadal's medical TO's around that time were, shall we say, quite convenient. But, it was 4 years ago. Maybe it's time to let it go, unless he gives us a reason not to.

 

[TsarMatt]

It's a really good question because both were absolutely remarkable seasons. Still, I might have to give the edge to 2013 based purely on expectations alone. I, alongside many others, expected very little of him last year, especially since he returned from that 6-7 month knee injury (the severity of it was unknown, but I asserted that he probably wouldn't ever win a Masters 1000 or a GS on HCs ever again). But what he accomplished was amazing. Two GS and a handful of Master 1000s? That's just excellent. 2010 was great, too, don't get me wrong, but I wasn't as surprised by that great run as I was in 2013.

 

[DarthFed]

^ What exactly is wrong with getting medical attention after losing a match? How does this compare to questionable (at best) MTO's when the other player has momentum during a match?

We're not talking about getting medical attention after losing a match. Front misspoke. Fed took a MTO after the FOURTH set v. Safin. Roger had a MP in the 4th, which Marat saved, then went on to win the set, and take it to the decider. At which point, Roger took a MTO for his back. So, yes, good question: what about a MTO when the other player has momentum in the match?

It seems unfair to be outraged by one, and yet withhold it for another.

Ah, well that is shady. The only MTO I ever remembered him taking was 2008 against Murray at YEC when it was pretty obvious he was having back problems.

The Davydenko bathroom break was also garbage. He lost the first set in under 30 minutes, there was only one reason to take that break.

 

[brokenshoelace]

It's a really good question because both were absolutely remarkable seasons. Still, I might have to give the edge to 2013 based purely on expectations alone. I, alongside many others, expected very little of him last year, especially since he returned from that 6-7 month knee injury (the severity of it was unknown, but I asserted that he probably wouldn't ever win a Masters 1000 or a GS on HCs ever again). But what he accomplished was amazing. Two GS and a handful of Master 1000s? That's just excellent. 2010 was great, too, don't get me wrong, but I wasn't as surprised by that great run as I was in 2013.

Based on expectations, there's no contest. 2013 takes it hands down. It is a more memorable season in many ways, all things considered.

But, to provide context, what prompted this thread was someone claiming Nadal was a "much better player" in 2013, which I disagreed with. As far as level of play goes, especially across all surfaces (I concede he was better on hards last year), Nadal was better in 2010. The serving and movement in particular stand out.