Nadal: 2010 vs. 2013

[isabelle]

Wimbledon 2012 = Wimbledon 2013 = Wimbledon 2014 for Nadal...

 

[Kieran]

Wimbledon 2012 = Wimbledon 2013 = Wimbledon 2014 for Nadal...

:lolz: :clap

In fairness, he was better this year but that was funny...

 

[isabelle]

Wimbledon 2012 = Wimbledon 2013 = Wimbledon 2014 for Nadal...

:lolz: :clap

In fairness, he was better this year but that was funny...

You're right, he was better but I don't think he'll win Wimbledon again

 

[Kieran]

Let's wait and see. People said he wouldn't get the upperhand on Djokovic again, he wouldn't be #1 again, he wouldn't win a hard court major again. He found a way. The Channel Slam is notoriously tough - but it will become less so next year, and it's not like he's never won there before.

I think that as long as he's competing, it's a brave person sets limits on what Rafa can do...

 

[calitennis127]

Look i'm not going to argue that Rafa's movement isn't still pretty good, or that players didn't hit winners on him back in the old days. I'm just saying how things develop is significantly different

Its worth comparing this match vs Coria in 2005 (my god that was beautiful and aggressive clay court tennis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOhsBWDQHY

with the recent FO win against Novak.

The old Nadal basically never gave up on a play ever. You would see him run after balls at full speed that were clearly going to be winners, but he didn't care b/c he never stopped and incredibly he would reach some of them, and this despite being 10 feet behind the baseline.

Nowdays he gives up on plays, and he masks the loss of relative movement, by for instance, being more advanced in the court so that he can cut off angles better, or alternatively by guessing.

I am not going to add anything to this discussion because we talked about this issue a million times with Cali and he just does not believe in slowing down with age or needing a bit more time to recuperate as you get older

Then why don't you address my argument about how Nadal won the two summer hardcourt events in successive weeks?

That is something that neither Federer or Djokovic (more natural hardcourt players than Nadal) have been able to do in their best statistical years. It's also something Nadal never did when he was younger. He did this at age 27.

I just want to say that the Coria match looks like it is being played in fast forward mode compared to how Nadal plays today. It almost feels fake.

Then I really do not know what you are looking at. There is maybe a slight bit more of overall quickness in Nadal on a consistent basis and there is a more noticeable youthful recklessness in hustling after everything, but the movement is essentially the same.

I'll put Nadal's movement in the second set of the 2014 Roland Garros final up against any level of movement we have seen from him over the years.

 

[Moxie]

I'll put Nadal's movement in the second set of the 2014 Roland Garros final up against any level of movement we have seen from him over the years.

I don't know why you insist on this. It's not like he was tested by a fine Djokovic. They both started nervous, and Novak was also unwell. Nadal held his own, but it wasn't the best from either, by any stretch. You may have seen Nadal move his best, but that's because you see all of Nadal's performances with your own special anti-Rafa goggles. Rafa won, but it was far from the best performance from either player. In this case, Nadal won the war of attrition. It doesn't make me happy to admit it, but it's fair to say.

 

[britbox]

Look i'm not going to argue that Rafa's movement isn't still pretty good, or that players didn't hit winners on him back in the old days. I'm just saying how things develop is significantly different

Its worth comparing this match vs Coria in 2005 (my god that was beautiful and aggressive clay court tennis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOhsBWDQHY

with the recent FO win against Novak.

The old Nadal basically never gave up on a play ever. You would see him run after balls at full speed that were clearly going to be winners, but he didn't care b/c he never stopped and incredibly he would reach some of them, and this despite being 10 feet behind the baseline.

Nowdays he gives up on plays, and he masks the loss of relative movement, by for instance, being more advanced in the court so that he can cut off angles better, or alternatively by guessing.

Haelfix - Don't you think that's partially down to being a little more selective? I'd agree he has dropped off a little - but he's also a little smarter.

When he really needs a point or smells blood he's still among the elite in that respect, even if a notch down from his younger days.

 

[Moxie]

Look i'm not going to argue that Rafa's movement isn't still pretty good, or that players didn't hit winners on him back in the old days. I'm just saying how things develop is significantly different

Its worth comparing this match vs Coria in 2005 (my god that was beautiful and aggressive clay court tennis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkOhsBWDQHY

with the recent FO win against Novak.

The old Nadal basically never gave up on a play ever. You would see him run after balls at full speed that were clearly going to be winners, but he didn't care b/c he never stopped and incredibly he would reach some of them, and this despite being 10 feet behind the baseline.

Nowdays he gives up on plays, and he masks the loss of relative movement, by for instance, being more advanced in the court so that he can cut off angles better, or alternatively by guessing.

Haelfix - Don't you think that's partially down to being a little more selective? I'd agree he has dropped off a little - but he's also a little smarter.

When he really needs a point or smells blood he's still among the elite in that respect, even if a notch down from his younger days.

I agree that he's had to change his tactics. He can't run everything down as in that Coria match. That was 9 years ago. I think being more "selective" is a good point, and also trying to be more aggressive, to shorten points. But I think you're right, Baron, to say that when Rafa sees an opening, ("smells blood," as you say,) he's still at the top drawer of making the most of it. I don't think anyone has been as good at making adjustments to his game as he goes along.

He may give up on plays, judiciously, but he also still runs down ones that he thinks he can get, and often still gets them, haelfix. He may not be as fast as he was, but he's plenty fast. He's made tactical adjustments to accommodate his knees. He's not as physically adept as he was at 22, but Rafa learned to substitute clever for overpowering. Though, overpowering still works, a lot of the time.

 

[calitennis127]

I don't know why you insist on this.

Because I am sick and tired of everyone obsessing over age. People have been saying since 2008 that "this is Federer's last chance at doing this or that or this or that or this" and, here he is in 2014, playing 5-set Wimbledon finals and dazzling the crowd with superb shots.

It's not like he was tested by a fine Djokovic.

I disagree. I thought Djokovic played better than most gave him credit for, and I said so after the match. The issue for Djokovic was the same problem that plagued him in the Wimbledon final and that also cost him the US Open last year and troubled him even in the Miami and Rome finals - his inability to consolidate and build leads.

They both started nervous, and Novak was also unwell. Nadal held his own, but it wasn't the best from either, by any stretch.

The 2014 Nadal of the second and third sets would have beaten the 2006 Nadal on clay handily.

You may have seen Nadal move his best, but that's because you see all of Nadal's performances with your own special anti-Rafa goggles.

This debate has nothing to do with me not liking certain aspects of Nadal's game. It has to do with the age debate. Stop acting like such a woman and taking everything so personally.

Go ahead, Moxie. Laugh. Allow yourself to.

Rafa won, but it was far from the best performance from either player. In this case, Nadal won the war of attrition. It doesn't make me happy to admit it, but it's fair to say.

And the 2006 French Open final was pretty?

Nadal hit 44 winners to Djokovic's 43. There were many long rallies and they pushed each other hard. I don't know why everyone says that it was such a disappointing match.

The reason the match seemed a bit subpar was that Djokovic backed down when he had a lead, just as he did in the US Open final and as he did at times in the Wimbledon final.

 

[Moxie]

This debate has nothing to do with me not liking certain aspects of Nadal's game. It has to do with the age debate. Stop acting like such a woman and taking everything so personally.

Go ahead, Moxie. Laugh.

Thanks for the offer. :laydownlaughing :lolz: