General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[MargaretMcAleer]

Hang on. I let you distract me. The governing body that determined Sinner had "no fault" was the ITIA, not the ATP. Right? I get all of these acronyms confused when we get into the weeds on these things. No idea what the ATP has to say on it, then. Still, could use more transparency. As @kskate2 asks above: why expediency for Sinner and not Halep?

If I remember correctly regarding Halep's case, it was not straight forward, as there were alleged irregularities in her biological athletic passport, as well, abnormal blood measured over several years, maybe a reason why it was not as expedient as Sinner's

 

[kskate2]

Too bad , if they determine to reverse the decision, I know that it will not mean Fritz become the US Open champ by default..

They won't reverse it. Stupidity knows no bounds. Even after all this media attention, WADA has decided to let it ride.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

They won't reverse it. Stupidity knows no bounds. Even after all this media attention, WADA has decided to let it ride.

Are you saying Kskate that Frtiz should be given the the USO trophy? by default? hey?

 

[kskate2]

Are you saying Kskate that Frtiz should be given the the USO trophy? by default? hey?

Not at all. My comment has nothing to do w/ the tourney and everything to do w/ the Doping Agencies.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Not at all. My comment has nothing to do w/ the tourney and everything to do w/ the Doping Agencies.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I think we can debate punishments all day as we are all going to have varied opinions about that. I would think the one thing we can all agree on is positive tests must be disclosed quickly from the discovery of a positive result. 4-5 months after the fact is unacceptable. The players can then scramble to a defense against public opinion. That is a punishment they should all have to accept.

 

[Moxie]

I think we can debate punishments all day as we are all going to have varied opinions about that. I would think the one thing we can all agree on is positive tests must be disclosed quickly from the discovery of a positive result. 4-5 months after the fact is unacceptable. The players can then scramble to a defense against public opinion. That is a punishment they should all have to accept.

I understand the point that players should have a chance to rebut before there is an immediate disclosure. But tennis should figure out some way to do better about standardizing this, and being more forthcoming, overall.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

WADA has lodged an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for sport regarding Jannik Sinner's doping case.
He was found by an independent tribunal of ITIA to bear 'no fault or negligence'. But WADA is seeking a period of ineligibility between 1 and 2 years
"It is WADAs view that the finding of 'no fault or negligence' was not correct under the applicable rules. WADA is seeking a period of ineligibility of between 1 and 2 years.
WADA is not seeking a disqualification of any results which has already been imposed by the tribunal of first instance.
As this matter is now pending before CAS, WADA will make no further comment as this time

 

[don_fabio]

WADA has lodged an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for sport regarding Jannik Sinner's doping case.
He was found by an independent tribunal of ITIA to bear 'no fault or negligence'. But WADA is seeking a period of ineligibility between 1 and 2 years
"It is WADAs view that the finding of 'no fault or negligence' was not correct under the applicable rules. WADA is seeking a period of ineligibility of between 1 and 2 years.
WADA is not seeking a disqualification of any results which has already been imposed by the tribunal of first instance.
As this matter is now pending before CAS, WADA will make no further comment as this time

I've just read it. He could still get a suspension after all.

 

[Moxie]

I thought the deadline to appeal had passed, but I guess not.

 

[Jelenafan]

I still find it hard to wrap my head around that Sinner’s team thought it was smart to sit on this for months.

Did they and Sinner think it would just go away? The hubris is overwhelming assuming his “good guy” rep was enough.

‘Very disappointed’- ‘Surprised’ Jannik Sinner Expresses Serious Concern Over WADA’s Surprise Ruling On Doping Controversy

Jannik Sinner's doping saga is far from over with latest revelation showcasing a potential two-year ban on the Italian star if found guilty.

www.essentiallysports.com

Excerpt:

With his doping saga not concluded yet, the 23-year-old made a poignant admission during a post-match presser at the China Open. He expressed his disappointment with the appeal, despite taking reasonable measures to sideline his recent troubles. “I’m very disappointed and surprised of this appeal. All three hearings came out positively for me. I knew that they were going to appeal. Maybe they just want to make sure that everything is in the right position. I’m just surprised that they appealed.”

 

[Moxie]

I still find it hard to wrap my head around that Sinner’s team thought it was smart to sit on this for months.

Did they and Sinner think it would just go away? The hubris is overwhelming assuming his “good guy” rep was enough.

‘Very disappointed’- ‘Surprised’ Jannik Sinner Expresses Serious Concern Over WADA’s Surprise Ruling On Doping Controversy

Jannik Sinner's doping saga is far from over with latest revelation showcasing a potential two-year ban on the Italian star if found guilty.

www.essentiallysports.com

Excerpt:

I'm not sure what you think they should have done? They could have come out ahead of it, a la Sharapova, Maybe they were hoping it was a mistake, if what they say is true. So why "hubris," then? Sincere questions.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I've just read it. He could still get a suspension after all.

Sinner was told a few days ago that WADA was going to appeal and that it will be made public.WADA rules state they have to get the consent from the player to go public.The same with the ITIA.
Further reading, according to WADA, 'being unaware is not a defense, in other words, although Jannik was found by a Tribunal to be at no fault of intentionally using the prohibited substance he bears responsibility for hiring fitness trainer who brought the contaminated product and for being unaware that the product was used by his physio.The CAS may conclude that Jannik bares ' some level of fault or negligence for not exercising sufficient care" and his anti-doping violations were not intentional.
Jannik will continue to cooperate with this ongoing matter he said, and wont make any further comments

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

I hope every tennis player takes this to heart that you may get screwed by the people you hire, and do a thorough investigation before hiring. I would have figured Halep and the sketchiness associated with Patrick M would have been that warning shot to every player, but apparently not.

 

[kskate2]

I thought the deadline to appeal had passed, but I guess not.

Me too. I thought they had 30 days, but maybe it's 60 to appeal

 

[Moxie]

Me too. I thought they had 30 days, but maybe it's 60 to appeal

That didn't seem to be the information, as it was reported. Don't get me wrong...if WADA really wants to fight the ITIA judgment, I don't want him to get off on a technicality.

If I'm being completely honest, this one is complicated for me. I like Sinner, and I'd like to believe his story. I also like Cahill, and I think he's an honorable guy. But two failed tests, even if in short succession, is rather more damning. As I've said before, rather the worst of it seems to come from the tennis establishment side of things, that gives every impression of favorable treatment to a top player. If you're Sinner, and they expedite your case, and end up going easy on you, who wouldn't take it? Especially if you really didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Jelenafan]

I'm not sure what you think they should have done? They could have come out ahead of it, a la Sharapova, Maybe they were hoping it was a mistake, if what they say is true. So why "hubris," then? Sincere questions.

It was hubris IMO in that with all the doping issues of the last 20+ years in sports including tennis, and you (were) then the #2 ranked rising star who just won a Major, how can you not know how serious it is you failed two consecutive drug tests without disclosing it and giving your “plausible” explanation then?

Addressing it head on would indicate you had nothing to hide and show you acknowledged your responsibilty and respect ro the sport which is your livelihood. Sinner IS responsible for his teams action, you cannot skirt that. Did Sinner even acknowledge that? Instead he and his team wait out for months and THEN fires one of the people responsible for the snafu after it publicly had to come out. It was timing manipulation and Cahill doing his canonization of Sinner was shameful & embarrassing to say the least.

 

[Moxie]

It was hubris IMO in that with all the doping issues of the last 20+ years in sports including tennis, and you (were) then the #2 ranked rising star who just won a Major, how can you not know how serious it is you failed two consecutive drug tests without disclosing it and giving your “plausible” explanation then?

Addressing it head on would indicate you had nothing to hide and show you acknowledged your responsibilty and respect ro the sport which is your livelihood. Sinner IS responsible for his teams action, you cannot skirt that. Did Sinner even acknowledge that? Instead he and his team wait out for months and THEN fires one of the people responsible for the snafu after it publicly had to come out. It was timing manipulation and Cahill doing his canonization of Sinner was shameful & embarrassing to say the least.

I guess I just don't see why "hubris," though not to parse words. I don't think Sinner seems like an arrogant guy. I don't think he didn't feel it was serious, and I'm not sure why you think so.

It's easy to judge from the sidelines what someone "should" have done, but I personally can imagine at least a period of discussing when and if best to disclose ahead of the judgment. Ill-advised to sit on it? In retrospect, yes, probably. And why did he fire those guys only when it became public? That seems a bad look. Maybe he is dirty, but, if so, why not build a story and get in front of it? If it was all inadvertent, maybe he and his team were hoping that the ITIA would see there was no ill-intention, and that it might never come out. The problem is that there is taint, once it does, no matter the final judgment. If he was clean, he may have hoped to get past it without the publicity. But I wouldn't call that hubris, I'd call it naïveté. And I don't think Cahill "canonized" him. He said he was a good kid. A decent person. What would you expect him to say?

You get tarred with this brush, and some will never forget. @Front242 is an example. Hell, when Sebastian Korda started coming up, Front had to bring up his father's doping, and wonder about him. One could see why, if you thought the whole thing was a mistake, you might hope it could pass unnoticed.

That said, and looking at some comments above, what happens if WADA wins their appeal and Sinner gets a 1-2 year suspension? Meaning, what happens to his US Open title this year? Just...oops, oh, well? Tennis needs to think about that. And I think Italian tennis has a bit of soul-searching to do, too. Attention has been cast in their direction, and they need to think about how to deal with their PR problem, and to eliminate any whiff of taint.

 

[mrzz]

And I think Italian tennis has a bit of soul-searching to do, too. Attention has been cast in their direction, and they need to think about how to deal with their PR problem, and to eliminate any whiff of taint.

Nothing much that they can do, honestly. Just keep their heads down, keep working and producing the results - positive in tennis and negative in labs. As long as it stays that way, they have way too many players in the top 100 for anyone to question what they are doing.

If something else pops up, then they're in trouble. Right now everything is just on Sinner

 

[Fiero425]

I guess I just don't see why "hubris," though not to parse words. I don't think Sinner seems like an arrogant guy. I don't think he didn't feel it was serious, and I'm not sure why you think so.

It's easy to judge from the sidelines what someone "should" have done, but I personally can imagine at least a period of discussing when and if best to disclose ahead of the judgment. Ill-advised to sit on it? In retrospect, yes, probably. And why did he fire those guys only when it became public? That seems a bad look. Maybe he is dirty, but, if so, why not build a story and get in front of it? If it was all inadvertent, maybe he and his team were hoping that the ITIA would see there was no ill-intention, and that it might never come out. The problem is that there is taint, once it does, no matter the final judgment. If he was clean, he may have hoped to get past it without the publicity. But I wouldn't call that hubris, I'd call it naïveté. And I don't think Cahill "canonized" him. He said he was a good kid. A decent person. What would you expect him to say?

You get tarred with this brush, and some will never forget. @Front242 is an example. Hell, when Sebastian Korda started coming up, Front had to bring up his father's doping, and wonder about him. One could see why, if you thought the whole thing was a mistake, you might hope it could pass unnoticed.

That said, and looking at some comments above, what happens if WADA wins their appeal and Sinner gets a 1-2 year suspension? Meaning, what happens to his US Open title this year? Just...oops, oh, well? Tennis needs to think about that. And I think Italian tennis has a bit of soul-searching to do, too. Attention has been cast in their direction, and they need to think about how to deal with their PR problem, and to eliminate any whiff of taint.

ITA when it comes to unfairly referencing Petr! The man has to be so proud of his offspring as their name goes on thru his daughter, Jessica in women's golf & his son, Sebastian in tennis! I'd personally never bring up his dad if interviewing him, but today's society demands the press to ask "stupid & irrelevant" questions b/c they're sensationists & love to put athletes on the spot! Their popularity has a lot to do w/ how much pressure is put on them to answer & so far I haven't seen too much in the way of trying to get Sabastian's "goat" so to speak!

As for Jannik, let the process go thru & hope for the best! So far it doesn't look good w/ him getting the benefit of the doubt when others probably should have gotten the same curtesy! He needed more of a punishment than that lame slap on the wrist!