General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Kieran]

I think the Sinner ban is fair in its length, but the way it’s done, through negotiation and back room dealing with Sinner, is going to feed the trolls. Nick Kyrgios is already whining, and others will too, and basically in this they have a point. Sinner didn’t cheat, and didn’t benefit from the discovered doses - but he also shouldn’t have been included in the decision against him.

It’s a convenient ban, and seems like it’s a face saving operation by both sides. In that sense, I agree with the critics, because it creates - or, reinforces - the suggestion that there’s a two tier system of justice..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I think the Sinner ban is fair in its length, but the way it’s done, through negotiation and back room dealing with Sinner, is going to feed the trolls. Nick Kyrgios is already whining, and others will too, and basically in this they have a point. Sinner didn’t cheat, and didn’t benefit from the discovered doses - but he also shouldn’t have been included in the decision against him.

It’s a convenient ban, and seems like it’s a face saving operation by both sides. In that sense, I agree with the critics, because it creates - or, reinforces - the suggestion that there’s a two tier system of justice..

As I have said from the start, there should be 'more transparency' full stop, as for Nick K he changes his mind like the wind, he has become a Troll on social media full stop, he dosent know the rules of WADA for starters, let him rave on, and that also goes for all the Novak fans, who wanted a longer ban say of 2 years

 

[Kieran]

As I have said from the start, there should be 'more transparency' full stop, as for Nick K he changes his mind like the wind, he has become a Troll on social media full stop, he dosent know the rules of WADA for starters, let him rave on, and that also goes for all the Novak fans, who wanted a longer ban say of 2 years

I love the way Andy Roddick scolded Kyrgios on his podcast, saying that Nick doesn’t think context matters - until he pled guilty for domestic abuse and then he was bleating about his mental health and all other types of “context” for abusing a woman…

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I have been saying this for many

I love the way Andy Roddick scolded Kyrgios on his podcast, saying that Nick doesn’t think context matters - until he pled guilty for domestic abuse and then he was bleating about his mental health and all other types of “context” for abusing a woman…

Agree, I think Roddick has decided after that, to ignore Nick K, good for Andy!
Though Nick still bleats about what Roddick said about him lol!

 

[Kieran]

I have been saying this for many

Agree, I think Roddick has decided after that, to ignore Nick K, good for Andy!
Though Nick still bleats about what Roddick said about him lol!

Does he? He’s a slow learner. I think he’s let his fluke appearance in a slam final - and subsequent capitulation two days before the match - go to his head, aided and abetted by the BBC making him a commentator…

 

[Front242]

I think the Sinner ban is fair in its length, but the way it’s done, through negotiation and back room dealing with Sinner, is going to feed the trolls. Nick Kyrgios is already whining, and others will too, and basically in this they have a point. Sinner didn’t cheat, and didn’t benefit from the discovered doses - but he also shouldn’t have been included in the decision against him.

It’s a convenient ban, and seems like it’s a face saving operation by both sides. In that sense, I agree with the critics, because it creates - or, reinforces - the suggestion that there’s a two tier system of justice..

This isn't proven AT ALL. The drug has a very short half life and had likely exited his system well before he was tested so he most definitely did get the benefits if this was the case and I said this well before Kyrgios echoed the same sentiments. This drug is mostly used as a masking agent so he hid whatever else he was taking and the fallback excuse was the massage crap they used. The fact that so many Italians have been caught with this same drug means that WADA are corrupt asf and clearly turning a blind eye. Also, settlements being reached for doping is a disgusting look for the sport. Paying off the authorities for a shorter sentence. Not even missing one measly slam proves the level of disrespect shown by WADA. RIP tennis. This was a totally bs look for the sport. Swiatek was busted for doping as well. 2 number 1s and 2 number 2s as far as I'm concerned. 2 big turds for the sport that the top players were caught cheating. Yes, cheating, 'cos only naive people buy that massage rub crap given how many Italians have been caught with this very same offense. I lift a lot of weights and magnesium muscle spray is amazing stuff. We all know why these dirty players didn't use this instead. 'cos it's not performance enhancing, nor is it a masking agent....

People need to wise up and stop believing the pathetic excuses these cheats come up with. The fact that in the same year the top male player and female player (both multiple slam winners and not some nobody donkey players) got caught doping should be a massive eye opener. Some coincidence...

 

[Kieran]

This isn't proven AT ALL. The drug has a very short half life and had likely exited his system well before he was tested so he most definitely did get the benefits if this was the case and I said this well before Kyrgios echoed the same sentiments. This drug is mostly used as a masking agent so he hid whatever else he was taking and the fallback excuse was the massage crap they used. The fact that so many Italians have been caught with this same drug means that WADA are corrupt asf and clearly turning a blind eye. Also, settlements being reached for doping is a disgusting look for the sport. Paying off the authorities for a shorter sentence. Not even missing one measly slam proves the level of disrespect shown by WADA. RIP tennis. This was a totally bs look for the sport. Swiatek was busted for doping as well. 2 number 1s and 2 number 2s as far as I'm concerned. 2 big turds for the sport that the top players were caught cheating. Yes, cheating, 'cos only naive people buy that massage rub crap given how many Italians have been caught with this very same offense. I lift a lot of weights and magnesium muscle spray is amazing stuff. We all know why these dirty players didn't use this instead. 'cos it's not performance enhancing, nor is it a masking agent....

People need to wise up and stop believing the pathetic excuses these cheats come up with. The fact that in the same year the top male player and female player (both multiple slam winners and not some nobody donkey players) got caught doping should be a massive eye opener. Some coincidence...

I agree with a lot of this, though naturally I don’t take anything Nick Kyrgios says - at all - seriously. He’s a low level thinker with a grudge against Sinner, probably because of Sinner’s girlfriend, but even if it isn’t that, the chap is bogey. One of the most moronic trolls tennis has produced.

Now in favour of your point of view, our own David Walsh of the Sunday Times has a strong article in today’s edition. We all remember him as one of the main forces behind the lancing of Lance Armstrong and the Tour de France.

Another issue that’s not discussed but should be more noticeable now is that Andre Agassi admitted in his excellent autobiography that he failed a dope test in 1997 - I think - he was caught for taking Crystal meth, a masking agent, but rather than ban him (which would have destroyed his career) they accepted his probably true version that he took it as a social drug.

They covered it up. So there is a history of top players having actually failed tests and the authorities giving them an easy ride. Agassi himself blew the doors of his guilty secret, and it never really gets much notice, but with this strange “deal” that Sinner reached, we now see a clear pattern, even if the two incidents are separated by 27 years..

 

[the AntiPusher]

This isn't proven AT ALL. The drug has a very short half life and had likely exited his system well before he was tested so he most definitely did get the benefits if this was the case and I said this well before Kyrgios echoed the same sentiments. This drug is mostly used as a masking agent so he hid whatever else he was taking and the fallback excuse was the massage crap they used. The fact that so many Italians have been caught with this same drug means that WADA are corrupt asf and clearly turning a blind eye. Also, settlements being reached for doping is a disgusting look for the sport. Paying off the authorities for a shorter sentence. Not even missing one measly slam proves the level of disrespect shown by WADA. RIP tennis. This was a totally bs look for the sport. Swiatek was busted for doping as well. 2 number 1s and 2 number 2s as far as I'm concerned. 2 big turds for the sport that the top players were caught cheating. Yes, cheating, 'cos only naive people buy that massage rub crap given how many Italians have been caught with this very same offense. I lift a lot of weights and magnesium muscle spray is amazing stuff. We all know why these dirty players didn't use this instead. 'cos it's not performance enhancing, nor is it a masking agent....

People need to wise up and stop believing the pathetic excuses these cheats come up with. The fact that in the same year the top male player and female player (both multiple slam winners and not some nobody donkey players) got caught doping should be a massive eye opener. Some coincidence...

Its gonna be interesting to see if Sinner is gonna be categorized as a drug cheat like Pova and Halep or given a pass because it was an "honest" mistake.

 

[Kieran]

Its gonna be interesting to see if Sinner is gonna be categorized as a drug cheat like Pova and Halep or given a pass because it was an "honest" mistake.

I think this will dog him all his days, regardless of whether we agree or not about his intentions. He may only be guilty of hiring people who were hapless in their roles, but regardless of that, he’s ultimately responsible. The fact that there’s been an undisclosed or mysterious process where he negotiated a “convenient” ban only makes it look like her didn’t actually take responsibility for it, at all..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I think this will dog him all his days, regardless of whether we agree or not about his intentions. He may only be guilty of hiring people who were hapless in their roles, but regardless of that, he’s ultimately responsible. The fact that there’s been an undisclosed or mysterious process where he negotiated a “convenient” ban only makes it look like her didn’t actually take responsibility for it, at all..

Wada said it had entered into a settlement agreement with Sinner under provision 10.8.2 in its code.
A spokesperson said,
"This provision was introduced to the code in 2021. Since then it has been used dozens of times with exceptional circumstances such as this one.
"Given there are many thousands of cases, it is not used that often and is the exception rather than the rule but there has been plenty of precedent for this.
Ultimately in this case three months represents a fair outcome under the specific circumstances"

Wada accepts that Mr Sinner did not intend to cheat, and that his exposure to clostebol did not provide any performance enchancing benefit and took place without his knowledge as the result negligence of members of his entourage.
However, under the Code and by virture of CAS precedent, an athlete bears responsibility for the entourages negligence.

 

[Kieran]

Wada said it had entered into a settlement agreement with Sinner under provision 10.8.2 in its code.
A spokesperson said,
"This provision was introduced to the code in 2021. Since then it has been used dozens of times with exceptional circumstances such as this one.
"Given there are many thousands of cases, it is not used that often and is the exception rather than the rule but there has been plenty of precedent for this.
Ultimately in this case three months represents a fair outcome under the specific circumstances"

Wada accepts that Mr Sinner did not intend to cheat, and that his exposure to clostebol did not provide any performance enchancing benefit and took place wothout his knowledge as the result negligence of members of his entourage.
However, under the Code and by virture of CAS precedent, an athlete bears responsibility for the entourages negligence.

I suppose the question there is, to what extent is he accepting responsibility? By negotiating a settlement? We know he's ultimately responsible and so therefore guilty of imbibing an illicit substance - whether he was cheating or not! But to what extent is he accepting responsibility? By taking a ban that he was already due? He ought to have no say in that...

 

[the AntiPusher]

I suppose the question there is, to what extent is he accepting responsibility? By negotiating a settlement? We know he's ultimately responsible and so therefore guilty of imbibing an illicit substance - whether he was cheating or not! But to what extent is he accepting responsibility? By taking a ban that he was already due? He ought to have no say in that...

Agreed. Its gonna be interesting to see how the court of public opinion see this.. @Front242 Any new thoughts on this one Fronty?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I suppose the question there is, to what extent is he accepting responsibility? By negotiating a settlement? We know he's ultimately responsible and so therefore guilty of imbibing an illicit substance - whether he was cheating or not! But to what extent is he accepting responsibility? By taking a ban that he was already due? He ought to have no say in that...

As far as I am concerned and I would say that about any other player in this circumstance he was not cheating, he has been found not intended to cheat, his exposure to clostebol did not provide any performance enchancing benefit.
This case has come down to 'negligence' which in part he has to take responsibility, which is fair enough in my opinion. Wada has stated in this case 3 months represents a fair outcome under the specific circumstances.As far as I am concerned it was a 'mutual agreement' when I read the actual findings from Wada
This case was set in April also it could have gone on for months etc.
I said from the start transparency is needed in all cases, this case should have been settled ages ago,

 

[Kieran]

As far as I am concerned and I would say that about any other player in this circumstance he was not cheating, he has been found not intended to cheat, his exposure to clostebol did not provide any performance enchancing benefit.
This case has come down to 'negligence' which in part he has to take responsibility, which is fair enough in my opinion. Wada has stated in this case 3 months represents a fair outcome under the specific circumstances.As far as I am concerned it was a 'mutual agreement' when I read the actual findings from Wada
This case was set in April also it could have gone on for months etc.
I said from the start transparency is needed in all cases, this case should have been settled ages ago,

It should have been, but once he agreed that he was ultimately responsible, he ought to have no more say in the matter. He had no chips to negotiate with, and yet there seems to have been a negotiation that got him the best possible settlement. For instance, if he accepted the quick settlement in exchange for agreeing not to challenge or question it, on what grounds did he do this? Why was he involved in the timing of the ban? What did he offer to be treated favourably?

They've left a lot of blanks for sceptics and cynics to run riot with...

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

It should have been, but once he agreed that he was ultimately responsible, he ought to have no more say in the matter. He had no chips to negotiate with, and yet there seems to have been a negotiation that got him the best possible settlement. For instance, if he accepted the quick settlement in exchange for agreeing not to challenge or question it, on what grounds did he do this? Why was he involved in the timing of the ban? What did he offer to be treated favourably?

They've left a lot of blanks for sceptics and cynics to run riot with...

We can all come up with 'conspiracy theories' until the cows come home

I just posted what WADA had stated with the settlement agreement with Sinner under provision 10.8.2 in its code and its explanation why it was used for in this case.Stating 3 months represents a fair outcome under the specific circumstances
Quite frankly banning him for say 1 year is just ridiculous in my opinion, for negligence, when you look at his case.
I beg the question how many players actually know what their physio/ trainer carry in their bags to start with? none, players hire these people who are suppose to be professionals? in this case they were not.In saying that Sinner still has to take responsibility for his team

 

[Kieran]

We can all come up with 'conspiracy theories' until the cows come home

I just posted what WADA had stated with the settlement agreement with Sinner under provision 10.8.2 in its code and its explanation why it was used for in this case.Stating 3 months represents a fair outcome under the specific circumstances
Quite frankly banning him for say 1 year is just ridiculous in my opinion, for negligence, when you look at his case.
I beg the question how many players actually know what their physio/ trainer carry in their bags to start with? none, players hire these people who are suppose to be professionals? in this case they were not.In saying that Sinner still has to take responsibility for his team

The issue is that there was an agreement at all. He ought not to have been asked if he agreed. The ban ought to have happened when they wanted to ban him, whether he agreed or not. He could appeal against it then, and I suspect that this is the substance of the agreement: he would take a 3 months ban and not appeal. It seems a poor deal for WADA.

As for his employees, David Walsh makes a good point in the article, that as soon as Sinner discovered his trainer had purchased a doping product, he should have fired him. But I can him the benefit of the doubt here, to some extent, but it's a very good point. That's taking immediate responsibility for what his staff do..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

The issue is that there was an agreement at all. He ought not to have been asked if he agreed. The ban ought to have happened when they wanted to ban him, whether he agreed or not. He could appeal against it then, and I suspect that this is the substance of the agreement: he would take a 3 months ban and not appeal. It seems a poor deal for WADA.

As for his employees, David Walsh makes a good point in the article, that as soon as Sinner discovered his trainer had purchased a doping product, he should have fired him. But I can him the benefit of the doubt here, to some extent, but it's a very good point. That's taking immediate responsibility for what his staff do..

As I said I just posted what Wada had issued on this subject, and why they came to a 3 month ban.Of course we are not privy to any more discussions that WADA or Sinner had.As I said this case should have been over ages ago, appealing could have taken months and months? with the same outcome? If WADA had thought it was a poor outcome they would have not said 3 months in the first place?
In hindsight yes Sinner should have sacked them, there and then, he did eventually sack them
BTW the former physio is now working for Matteo Berrettini.

 

[Kieran]

As I said I just posted what Wada had issued on this subject, and why they came to a 3 month ban.Of course we are not privy to any more discussions that WADA or Sinner had.As I said this case should have been over ages ago, appealing could have taken months and months? with the same outcome? If WADA had thought it was a poor outcome they would have not said 3 months in the first place?
In hindsight yes Sinner should have sacked them, there and then, he did eventually sack them
BTW the former physio is now working for Matteo Berrettini.

Good for him.

Unfortunately this outcome with WADA/Sinner only creates more problems for both of them - and tennis..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Good for him.

Unfortunately this outcome with WADA/Sinner only creates more problems for both of them - and tennis..

That is your opinion. Sinner was cleared of doping, the case was about 'negligence' which he has to be held in account, fair enough and WADA under their provision 10.8.2 they said in this case 3 months was a fair outcome.
We can all argue different scenarios in this case,
What I want in future is there has to be more Transparency full stop in any case., if not there will always be "eye brows' raised? like in this case, which I can understand until the facts are disclosed and the correct rules are applied, which some people do not understand

 

[Kieran]

That is your opinion.

What I want in future is there has to be more Transparency full stop in any case., if not there will always be "eye brows' raised? like in this case, which I can understand until the facts are disclosed and the correct rules are applied, which some people do not understand

So it's your opinion too. This outcome is not transparent - and will haunt the game..