Federer, Nadal, and the question of GOATness in general...

[Carol]

51% of the time. You call my numbers a hyperbole and yet you dropped a number from the sky didn't you? Here's a fact, dull played freaking Simon on CLAY in ROME and STILL had less winners than him, infact the gap was hilariously big, somebody can pull up those stats from wiki. So even on his beloved clay, he is such a COWARD that he just sits back and waits for his opponents to implode with his abnormal topspin( that level of topspin should be banned in the first place a long time ago but that is a debate for another topic). This kindof NEGATIVE, ANTI-TENNIS should've been nipped in the bud a LONG time ago but the exact opposite happened which is a disgrace to tennis. Clearly the guy who runs the show doesn't understand or care about the welfare of tennis.

As far as his gamesmanship goes, you are simply inaccurate. Nadal on AVERAGE is 30 seconds between points and that's even AFTER the time limit was increased from 20 to 25. He also goes well into the 40 sec range on big points like BPs, 15-30, etc. And let's be honest, he does that not to adjust his shorts, it is to unsettle his opponent. Look Nadal is such a dirty player that his actions say it all.

Why is tennis and the ATP bending over backwards to meet every demand of this farcical moonballer? The answer is clear - For money. Nothing else. The ATP ought to be ashamed of themselves but who is going to teach these morally bankrupt conmen any ethics? Finally money talks bullshit walks.

Don’t lie and try to count how many seconds he usually makes serving and even if he makes two or three seconds more it doesn’t affect the game at all, on the contrary helps to some players who are older than 34......
Keep talking garbage and saying something about ‘dirty’ and you will read things that you are not going to like, word!

 

[monfed]

Don’t lie and try to count how many seconds he usually makes serving and even if he makes two or three seconds more it doesn’t affect the game at all, on the contrary helps to some players who are older than 34......
Keep talking garbage and saying something about ‘dirty’ and you will read things that you are not going to like, word!

LOL lie? ATP has posted statistics on timewasting and dull is the worst of the lot.

 

[DarthFed]

Don’t lie and try to count how many seconds he usually makes serving and even if he makes two or three seconds more it doesn’t affect the game at all, on the contrary helps to some players who are older than 34......
Keep talking garbage and saying something about ‘dirty’ and you will read things that you are not going to like, word!

See when you say silly crap like this, "helps players over 34" you will get called on it. That random shot at Federer seems to ignore the fact he's probably the fastest player on tour so no, Nadal consistently going over the time limit doesn't help him. It helps Rafa a lot mainly because he is often using up more energy playing his blue-collar game than his opponent.

 

[Carol]

See when you say silly crap like this, "helps players over 34" you will get called on it. That random shot at Federer seems to ignore the fact he's probably the fastest player on tour so no, Nadal consistently going over the time limit doesn't help him. It helps Rafa a lot mainly because he is often using up more energy playing his blue-collar game than his opponent.

Are you telling me that those 3 or 4 seconds that sometimes Nadal does can hurt the game of his opponent ? are you kidding me? the only thing it can do is that his opponent can breathe a couple of times more, that's all

 

[mrzz]

51% of the time. You call my numbers a hyperbole and yet you dropped a number from the sky didn't you?

Man, "99% of the times" is an often used figure of speech, I know you haven't checked your numbers, so, yes, it is an hyperbole. Pay attention to what I wrote please, I never assumed the 51% figure was better than the 99% one. It is part of my argument, like "even if you meant something as low as 51%, still...". In other words, I replied to an even "softer" version of your argument. And I disagree even with that. You cited one match, the Nadal fans here probably can cite hundreds of matches were Nadal had a lot more winners than his opponent. And, yes, I know he can manage to win matches without firing a winner. I wish the guys I root for could do that once in a while too.

As far as his gamesmanship goes, you are simply inaccurate

Where I am inaccurate? I said he is an offender. Actually I know these numbers pretty well. You are probably reading something else on the "sometimes he crosses the line" (which was about gamesmanship). I never wrote "he sometimes breaks the time rule".

I know pretty well he routinely breaks the time to serve rule (he is not alone in that, and the ATP umpires fail in general to enforce the rule). I have posted previously (ok, you were not in the forums then) that, in some matches were we had data available at the time, he probably broke the rule around 80% of the time. No discussion here (but you assumed I meant something I didn't).

 

[monfed]

Man, "99% of the times" is an often used figure of speech, I know you haven't checked your numbers, so, yes, it is an hyperbole. Pay attention to what I wrote please, I never assumed the 51% figure was better than the 99% one. It is part of my argument, like "even if you meant something as low as 51%, still...". In other words, I replied to an even "softer" version of your argument. And I disagree even with that. You cited one match, the Nadal fans here probably can cite hundreds of matches were Nadal had a lot more winners than his opponent. And, yes, I know he can manage to win matches without firing a winner. I wish the guys I root for could do that once in a while too.

90%, 50%, I don't know what you're on about but it's clear with anyone with 2 eyes that he pushes most of the time. I don't know why Nadal fans can't even accept basic facts about their player.

Where I am inaccurate? I said he is an offender. Actually I know these numbers pretty well. You are probably reading something else on the "sometimes he crosses the line" (which was about gamesmanship). I never wrote "he sometimes breaks the time rule".

I know pretty well he routinely breaks the time to serve rule (he is not alone in that, and the ATP umpires fail in general to enforce the rule). I have posted previously (ok, you were not in the forums then) that, in some matches were we had data available at the time, he probably broke the rule around 80% of the time. No discussion here (but you assumed I meant something I didn't).

You said he crosses the line sometimes. Keyword - sometimes. I called you out on that saying it's not sometimes, its most of the time if not everytime. But ok atleast you admit he's cheating, that's a start.

 

[mrzz]

The idea that the one who plays the percentages has more off days than the high risk player is simply wrong on it's face.

Here is where we disagree but I see where you are coming from. The guy who plays the percentages is surely less vulnerable to an off day, by definition (we agree here), and that is the whole point. This is different from who has more off days. Actually, for me the guy who feels more comfortable on the surface/conditions is the one who has less off days.I think you are mixing two different things (but that is a matter of perspective)... for sure, when Federer has his off days, is more visible (his UFE goes sky high). Nadal will never make all those UFE's, but his balls get shorter, and he doesn't go for his shots as he normally goes. How many times have we seen that on hard courts?

 

[DarthFed]

Are you telling me that those 3 or 4 seconds that sometimes Nadal does can hurt the game of his opponent ? are you kidding me? the only thing it can do is that his opponent can breathe a couple of times more, that's all

Yes it is easy to freeze an opponent when the guy is sitting on the service line for 15 seconds picking his arse and petting his hair. Moreover there is a reason the time limit is in place and there's also a reason he is damn near always over. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think it was to his advantage.

 

[mrzz]

90%, 50%, I don't know what you're on about but it's clear with anyone with 2 eyes that he pushes most of the time. I don't know why Nadal fans can't even accept basic facts about their player.



You said he crosses the line sometimes. Keyword - sometimes. I called you out on that saying it's not sometimes, its most of the time if not everytime. But ok atleast you admit he's cheating, that's a start.

Monfed, you wrote that 99% of the times, Nadal wins with less winners than the opponent. This is obviously not the case. But I would not be pedantic enough to argue with your precise number (which is obviously a figure of speech), so I replied the "spirit" of the argument, which I read as "Nadal wins with less winners than the opponent most of the time". I actually disagree with that statement, and even if it was true, it says less than one might think.

The keyword "sometimes" was used in one specific sentence. I changed the subject from "gamesmanship" in general to the time to serve problem. Yes, I think that "sometimes" Nadal crosses the gamesmanship boundaries, while I am certain that very frequently he offends the serve time rule. Given all the grey areas about the time to serve rule, I do not think his frequent offenses translate directly into "gamesmanship". So, occasional gamesmanship, and frequent breaking of the time to serve rule. Not that complex.

By the way, I am a Federer fan.

 

[monfed]

Monfed, you wrote that 99% of the times, Nadal wins with less winners than the opponent. This is obviously not the case. But I would not be pedantic enough to argue with your precise number (which is obviously a figure of speech), so I replied the "spirit" of the argument, which I read as "Nadal wins with less winners than the opponent most of the time". I actually disagree with that statement, and even if it was true, it says less than one might think.

The keyword "sometimes" was used in one specific sentence. I changed the subject from "gamesmanship" in general to the time to serve problem. Yes, I think that "sometimes" Nadal crosses the gamesmanship boundaries, while I am certain that very frequently he offends the serve time rule. Given all the grey areas about the time to serve rule, I do not think his frequent offenses translate directly into "gamesmanship". So, occasional gamesmanship, and frequent breaking of the time to serve rule. Not that complex.

By the way, I am a Federer fan.

Point being, why don't you agree with a basic fact that Nadal pushes most of the time as most of his matches show he's the one with the less number of winners than his opponents? His entire game is based on it so IDK how that can be debated.

 

[mrzz]

To spare the word of an endless debate, I would like to see some numbers on that (Nadal's winners vs his opponent's).

 

[monfed]

To spare the word of an endless debate, I would like to see some numbers on that (Nadal's winners vs his opponent's).

I'm not doing your research for you but luckily for you it won't be a hard task to find a stat as obvious as Nadal having less winners than his opponent. AKA pretty much any match vs a player who isn't ranked outside the top 1000.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Point being, why don't you agree with a basic fact that Nadal pushes most of the time as most of his matches show he's the one with the less number of winners than his opponents? His entire game is based on it so IDK how that can be debated.

The fact that Darth is arguing with Carol and not this guy shows how far our biases take us.

 

[mrzz]

I'm not doing your research for you but luckily for you it won't be a hard task to find a stat as obvious as Nadal having less winners than his opponent. AKA pretty much any match vs a player who isn't ranked outside the top 1000.

Well, one step at a time. I checked the Monte Carlo final, and according to this link he fired 20 winners to Nishikori's 12. But probably if I keep searching my next 99 will be the opposite, right?

 

[mrzz]

And before anyone has any thoughts about how unbiased I am being by defending Nadal, please note that by doing so I am also defending Federer: if Nadal were just a guy who moonballs everything to someone's one handed back hand, what kind of stupid asshole Federer would need to be to lose to him that often?

 

[monfed]

Well, one step at a time. I checked the Monte Carlo final, and according to this link he fired 20 winners to Nishikori's 12. But probably if I keep searching my next 99 will be the opposite, right?

Cmon are you gonna be this difficult? You're picking a match where Nadal is playing at his near best form and Kei at his near worst? How about picking a match where his opponent is at a respectable level. For every match he's hit more winners than his opponent, you can probably find ten where he's well below his opponent. So far below infact that the ATP should dock him points for it.

 

[Carol]

Yes it is easy to freeze an opponent when the guy is sitting on the service line for 15 seconds picking his arse and petting his hair. Moreover there is a reason the time limit is in place and there's also a reason he is damn near always over. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think it was to his advantage.

Nothing about advantage, next time try to count how much time he takes picking his arse and petting his hair.....4 seconds exactly while others are walking in slow motion or bouncing the ball 17 times looking his opponent 5 times before to hit the ball which I think it's more enough to freeze an opponent.

 

[monfed]

The fact that Darth is arguing with Carol and not this guy shows how far our biases take us.

It is not a bias if it's backed up with facts and common sense arguments.

 

[Carol]

I'm not doing your research for you but luckily for you it won't be a hard task to find a stat as obvious as Nadal having less winners than his opponent. AKA pretty much any match vs a player who isn't ranked outside the top 1000.

What are you talking about? try to check the stats better before to talk, the only thing you are showing besides the hate is that you have not any idea about this sport, 0 below 0

 

[monfed]

Yes it is easy to freeze an opponent when the guy is sitting on the service line for 15 seconds picking his arse and petting his hair. Moreover there is a reason the time limit is in place and there's also a reason he is damn near always over. He wouldn't do it if he didn't think it was to his advantage.

I wonder if there are any Nadal fans who aren't so ridiculously stubborn that they can't have a simple meaningful conversation about universally accepted facts. Have you had any luck?