Federer, Nadal, and the question of GOATness in general...

brokenshoelace

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Getting back to my original point, a simple eye test is enough to say that Federer is the GOAT. Now you can deny it ofcourse, freedom of expression and what not, for example I can reject that Nadal is the GOAT on clay because all he does is stand in a corner and moonballs away to opponent's BH so he doesn't have to put in any REAL effort as he's never truly challenged. Now you can feel offended about it but this it still a POV and believe it or not it's shared by many including the french who booed him in almost every match at RG specially in his early years.

You shouldn't speak of the eye-test and proceed to fail it in the very next sentence. If that is honestly what you think Nadal does on clay, you legitimately don't understand tennis. Like, not just don't understand it, but are completely and utterly clueless about it. And this view is shared by many? Who? Youtube commenters? No, these "many" you speak of are a very small percentage. Most tennis fans are not that dumb.
 

brokenshoelace

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Also another thing that often gets missed with Federer is that he's one of the very few sportsmen who utilised their talent almost 80 to 90%. I still feel Fed should be sitting at 25 slams right now but OK 20 is still pretty good. That's often not the case with naturally talented players, take Safin or Rios for example, they could've won more slams but didn't do much although Safin won a decent amount. Nalbandian another example of talent going wasted. So it's not just talent, seems like most Fed haters gripe with this but they fail to realise that Fed put in the effort to convert his talent into something special.

Nobody fails to realize that Federer converted his talent into something special, what on earth are you talking about? He's won 20 slams. That's special. Yeah some Fed haters exist and might try to undermine his accomplishments, but even they would acknowledge that he's had a special career.
 

monfed

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O.K. I'm sorry. I don't agree with what you say but I don't disagree with it either because I think you've got to look at all the facts & statistics of all tennis players of all time to decide & that would be a very difficult & time-consuming job so you might be right but on the other hand you might be wrong. I'm not offended by what you've said & realise that it is your opinion & I respect your right to have & air 1. I just disagreed with that 1 comment because I thought you were judging everyone by 1 discussion which I thought was wrong. I'm very sorry if I upset or offended you but I did & said what I thought was right at the time though thinking about it now there were better ways of saying & doing what I said & did.

It's ok baby I love you anyway.
 
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Horsa

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Yes you can restart with a nice line like I'm sorry, monfed, I accept Fed as my GOAT and saviour.
Don't push it. I'll say the 1st part but not the 2nd. I only tell the truth as I see it so can't say the 2nd. I'm sorry, monfed.
 

monfed

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Don't push it. I'll say the 1st part but not the 2nd. I only tell the truth as I see it so can't say the 2nd. I'm sorry, monfed.

The first part is optional, the 2nd part is not.
 

Horsa

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This thread has gone to shit.
I'm very sorry for my part in spoiling your conversation.

You just wanted to know which tennis player we thought was best.
You just wanted to know which tennis player we thought was better than all the rest.
You wanted to know who we thought was the greatest tennis player was the greatest of all time.
I'm very sorry that I helped spoil your conversation & know I'm partially guilty of that crime.
You didn't want to see so-called civilised human beings argue & fight.
I should not have done it as it was not right.
I admit that I was wrong.
We explained, apologised & made up so shouldn't string this along.
Instead we should move on from this & let everyone else have their fun.
I want to make it up to you so write you this rhyme & now I've done.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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^Good questions. Personally I reject the concept of goatness. If it's based on achievement then what achievements should be given primacy? Were those achievements considered a priority on previous eras? In 20 years time folks might consider masters series title accumulation to be more important that slams (I don't think so, but you get my point). The point is that definitions of greatness seem to be fluid. All I can say is that having watched tennis for 40 years Federer is the most complete, dominant and aesthetically pleasing player I've ever seen.

Proceeding along the same lines, assuming goatness is a valid concept, we should also give allowance for players (such as say Monfils, Kyrgios, Fog etc) who don't consider goatness as their priority. :D
 

Horsa

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Proceeding along the same lines, assuming goatness is a valid concept, we should also give allowance for players (such as say Monfils, Kyrgios, Fog etc) who don't consider goatness as their priority. :D
I'm very sorry for interrupting your conversation but have to say I agree. People who play tennis for a living just because they enjoy playing tennis & get paid to do something they enjoy & try their best but think that although it would be nice to be seen as the greatest that's not their main priority & motivation.
 

Moxie

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All it takes is one good, insightful and on-topic post to get it back on track. Don't give up just yet.
It's also that @monfed refuses to respond when legitimately challenged, as @brokenshoelace did, above. Don't mind his troll-like avatar. I'm sure he means what he says. But it doesn't mean the rest of us can't have a conversation without those who decline to engage, when confronted.
 

Horsa

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It's also that @monfed refuses to respond when legitimately challenged, as @brokenshoelace did, above. Don't mind his troll-like avatar. I'm sure he means what he says. But it doesn't mean the rest of us can't have a conversation without those who decline to engage, when confronted.
I'm very sorry. I thought he was judging everyone else so spoke up although it wasn't really my place to & I did exactly what I was criticizing him for & judged him. I thought I was saying & doing the right thing at the time but realised later I wasn't, held my hand up, explained & apologised. I was wrong but I'm never right anyway & almost everyone hates me anyway. I'm very sorry I spoil everyone else's fun.
 

Moxie

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I'm very sorry. I thought he was judging everyone else so spoke up although it wasn't really my place to & I did exactly what I was criticizing him for & judged him. I thought I was saying & doing the right thing at the time but realised later I wasn't, held my hand up, explained & apologised. I was wrong but I'm never right anyway & almost everyone hates me anyway. I'm very sorry I spoil everyone else's fun.
No, you were perfectly fine.
 
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mrzz

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It's also that @monfed refuses to respond when legitimately challenged, as @brokenshoelace did, above. Don't mind his troll-like avatar. I'm sure he means what he says. But it doesn't mean the rest of us can't have a conversation without those who decline to engage, when confronted.

There is a reason to that (and I mean a collective reason, not anything specific to him). A Federer fan who cannot stand Nadal, in general, out of selective memory, remember just the parts about Nadal's game that bothers him the most, and that is precisely the relentless defense. So this (hypothetical) fan is sure Nadal's game is one dimensional -- after all, that's the only dimension he is paying attention to. The details that makes this formula particularly damaging is that, obviously, the defensive game is the last resort Nadal has, after all, everyone has bad days and bad patches. So when we see Nadal playing his C- game and still winning, this fan will say "see, that's the only way this guy can play".

Every great player needs some last resort to cling to. Federer has his serve -- and, not surprisingly, the Federer haters say he is all about the serve. It is not a perfect parallel, but still has some truth in it.

Maybe, if we would have the time to look in detail, we would find that what makes a great player "great" is precisely not how well he can play while on his peak, but how effectively he can survive while playing like shit. Each one in his own way, Fedal are masters on this, and on this particular front, specially on clay, Nadal is ahead of Federer.
 

monfed

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You shouldn't speak of the eye-test and proceed to fail it in the very next sentence. If that is honestly what you think Nadal does on clay, you legitimately don't understand tennis. Like, not just don't understand it, but are completely and utterly clueless about it. And this view is shared by many? Who? Youtube commenters? No, these "many" you speak of are a very small percentage. Most tennis fans are not that dumb.

I've been playing tennis since the age of 7. I'm from India where cricket is a religion but I was taking tennis coaching rather than playing cricket so I don't care what you think about what I know or understand about tennis. I play with a 1HBH and I'm a tennis purist. Don't like it? Tough shit.

Nadal plays the most anti-tennis, negative, defeatist, UGLY CHEATING game EVER seen in any SPORT! Yup you read that right and I don't care about you feeling offended about it because it is the truth and the truth is bitter and the truth always wins the day!
I cannot respect either Nadal or his TARDS or his BLIND ENABLERS who have completely and utterly ruined this beautiful game. Tennis would be FAR better without Nadal and his tennis hating tards!

PS: You know what's funny and ironic? Most tennis fans aren't Nadal fans. :D
 
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monfed

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There is a reason to that (and I mean a collective reason, not anything specific to him). A Federer fan who cannot stand Nadal, in general, out of selective memory, remember just the parts about Nadal's game that bothers him the most, and that is precisely the relentless defense. So this (hypothetical) fan is sure Nadal's game is one dimensional -- after all, that's the only dimension he is paying attention to. The details that makes this formula particularly damaging is that, obviously, the defensive game is the last resort Nadal has, after all, everyone has bad days and bad patches. So when we see Nadal playing his C- game and still winning, this fan will say "see, that's the only way this guy can play".

Every great player needs some last resort to cling to. Federer has his serve -- and, not surprisingly, the Federer haters say he is all about the serve. It is not a perfect parallel, but still has some truth in it.

Maybe, if we would have the time to look in detail, we would find that what makes a great player "great" is precisely not how well he can play while on his peak, but how effectively he can survive while playing like shit. Each one in his own way, Fedal are masters on this, and on this particular front, specially on clay, Nadal is ahead of Federer.

Cut the crap. Nadal 99% of the time always hits less winners than his opponent. He is the definition of anti-tennis and as if that is not bad enough he is also a cheater and a really shameless one at that.