Carlos Bernardes Withdrawn for Nadal Matches

[Moxie]

Everytime you guys get uber defensive about his wrong doing mate. The guy apparently can do no wrong in your eyes. If Roger does something wrong I'll be happy to agree. But for you guys your default mode is to defend him :nono

I know of no Rafa fan who has ever made the claim he can do no wrong. Rafa fans are willing to criticize him, including -- especially -- when it comes to taking too much time.

Seriously, point out even one Rafa fan who has defended his doing this.

I'll wait ...

I agree with you tented, most nadal fans acknowledge the time wasting and don't like it. This thread is not really about the time wasting, but using his clout to not have Bernardas as his ump. The issue at hand is the only thing I can say that nadal has done on a human level that I really dislike. In general, I don't know these people in any real way. Most of the reasons I dislike Nadal are gut instinct or small things. This one is in my opinion pretty gross and unfair.

I haven't seen Nadal fans be very critical of him about the issue at hand.

Discussing his time-wasting (except for background purposes) actually obfuscates (I get to use this word! I hope did it right) what this thread is about. This is about whether or not Nadal was acting like an entitled player, trying to make it so he does not have to play by the same rules as everyone else... That might be a harsh take on it but it is mine.

Nadal is not the devil. I don't think this thread constitutes character assignation. Entitled behavior really gets on my nerves, so it's a huge pet-peeve for me, and makes me like nadal much less. By all means still like Rafa. I agree that Novak's tax-sheltering is a little gross. I am not sure that it is hypocritical, as I never heard he was a socialist, but it seems selfish to me.

There are tons of other things he does wrong that you all defend, besides Broken who is pretty much the only one who admits wrongdoing.

This is false. Read Riotbeard's acknowledgement that Rafa fans admit to his wrongdoings. Why would he have posted that if Broken is "pretty much the only one who admits wrongdoing"? Or are Novak fans incapable of perceiving this clearly, and only certain Fed fans can see the truth?

I said they admit to time wasting but have been strangely silent on the issue at hand. So I would not say that so far in this thread "Rafa fans admit to [all] his wrongdoings," but time wasting is indisputable. The question at hand is one of moral philosophy. Should Rafa be allowed to not be officiated by those who enforce the main rule he breaks? And, how do you interpret on a character level the fact that he thought he should be able to ask that (and was granted it)?

I'm quoting you, RB, because you are the only one, for PAGES, as I've been catching up, to address the topic of the thread. Otherwise factional bile has been spilled, and even anger at TF. (Thread closed temporarily. Boohoo, and be still my heart.) I bolded a few things above. This thread isn't about Nadal's time-wasting, as you rightly say, it IS about influence used by Nadal, and I have tried to argue that most are not reading the articles carefully, as most seem to be trying to take flaming headlines and running with them, without any consideration of the actual facts. Tennis.com which has already been cited here says that the French Federation claims that Nadal DID NOT request of them that they keep Bernardes from his matches.

Nadal DID make the request to the ATF, it seems, that they take a break for a time, whose spokesman has said that that is not uncommon...that when there are tensions, that either players or umps will request that they not see each other for a bit. Is this really such presumptive bullying use of position on Rafa's part, if it is not uncommon that it happen, after some tensions? It's worth remembering, as the tennis.com article says, the source of the tension with Nadal and Bernardes in Rio was not so much the time violation about serving, as has been much discussed here, as that the original kerfuffle came about when Rafa had his shorts on backwards and Bernardes wouldn't let him leave the court to change them, threatening him with a time violation. (Some will remember that he changed them on court with a towel protection.)

So I object to the notion that we Rafa fans have been silent on it. I've been trying to get everyone to read what has actually been on offer, instead of all of the inferences that everyone is working with. Folks are too willing to buy the explosive headline and not read the details. (And, for the record, I also have admitted to his being a huge time-violator, on this thread, which has been a common theme that Rafa fans won't do of the last several pages.)

Another thing I will say, in general, on this thread (and as always,) is that the detractors come after us Nadal fans for defending him. Broken is the most gimlet-eyed, then probably tented. But, in fairness, when so many detractors sling bile and loads of unfairness, what are we supposed to do? Roll over and play dead? Certain regulars and vocal ones are rather outrageous in their dislike of Nadal, which can often confuse opinion with fact. So we fans defend him. Is that wrong? I think not.

And also, RB, for the correct use of "obfuscate," I will be sending you $20 via Paypal. Word of the day.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Moxie, come on, just because your guy was portrayed in bad light, you went to the extent of sullying "Telegraph", a reputed news source and now you are saying you are cool. Did it even occur to you to admit that you were wrong on that and your accusation of Telegraph is essentially born out of your fandom and apologize for that? I can count you being wrong on two other issues all within a span of 24 hours. I guess it is getting giddy for you folks out there and thus it becomes difficult to think straight.

 

[Moxie]

Here is an article from tennis.com on
the issue.

The primary culprit here is ATP?ITF the governing bodies of professional tennis. They
try to keep everything a secret. This is the same problem they had with drugs/doping/silent ban
issues.

The firs thing that we need is open and honest administration of professional tennis.
Then most of the other problems will go away.

Moxie, come on, just because your guy was portrayed in bad light, you went to the extent of sullying "Telegraph", a reputed news source and now you are saying you are cool. Did it even occur to you to admit that you were wrong on that and your accusation of Telegraph is essentially born out of your fandom and apologize for that? I can count you being wrong on two other issues all within a span of 24 hours. I guess it is getting giddy for you folks out there and thus it becomes difficult to think straight.

I never sullied the Telegraph. I questioned that they cited no sources. That's fair. Every journalistic entity can fall down, occasionally. I'm not sure whatever otherwise you think I was wrong about, but I'll be on the edge of my seat for you to tell me.

As to the previous quote, it was you that brought up the tennis.com article, but your analysis of it was completely erroneous. You failed at all to mention that the French Federation said that Nadal hadn't requested that Bernardes not officiate his matches at RG. And then you went on a rant about the ATP/ITF not being forthcoming enough, (even bringing in doping,) when the ATP was actually quoted in that article as saying that players/umps asking to avoid each other isn't uncommon. Which doesn't hide anything. Do you actually read things before you post them?

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, come on, just because your guy was portrayed in bad light, you went to the extent of sullying "Telegraph", a reputed news source and now you are saying you are cool. Did it even occur to you to admit that you were wrong on that and your accusation of Telegraph is essentially born out of your fandom and apologize for that? I can count you being wrong on two other issues all within a span of 24 hours. I guess it is getting giddy for you folks out there and thus it becomes difficult to think straight.

When did I say I was "cool" with what the Telegraph said? You're being a condescending prickly pear, and I would challenge you to read more carefully the articles, including the ones you posted, and what I have posted, as well, before you decide who has read things wrong.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Moxie, you are the one who is not reading my explanations clearly or not understanding it or
pretending not to understand it. I even explicitly brought attention to the following statement
ATP spokesman Simon Higson said the tour wouldn't comment on any specific decisions related to how it picks chair umpires for matches. Do you think that is transparency?

Now, you are saying that Rafa is good because he never asked the French Tennis Federation not to let Carlos chair his matches. But, he had asked ATP already and they have already honored it. May be he did not feel a need to separately ask the ITF again. Also, did you read the follow up sentence after the FFT's statement that Rafa did not ask. That basically says that even though Rafa did not ask, it is well known that there is a tussle here and we will not make carlos chair Rafa's matches.
May be ATP communicated to ITF, Rafa's request.

The final point is that you are trying to nitpick things while Rafa himself has openly admitted.
You are attempting to dissect the finer points, perhaps hoping that it will obfuscate the major issue here and people start discussing the difference between ATP and ITF perhaps.

 

[Federberg]

^Glad you saw thru it GSM. They're slippery with those tactics!

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, you are the one who is not reading my explanations clearly or not understanding it or
pretending not to understand it. I even explicitly brought attention to the following statement
ATP spokesman Simon Higson said the tour wouldn't comment on any specific decisions related to how it picks chair umpires for matches. Do you think that is transparency?

Now, you are saying that Rafa is good because he never asked the French Tennis Federation not to let Carlos chair his matches. But, he had asked ATP already and they have already honored it. May be he did not feel a need to separately ask the ITF again. Also, did you read the follow up sentence after the FFT's statement that Rafa did not ask. That basically says that even though Rafa did not ask, it is well known that there is a tussle here and we will not make carlos chair Rafa's matches.
May be ATP communicated to ITF, Rafa's request.

The final point is that you are trying to nitpick things while Rafa himself has openly admitted.
You are attempting to dissect the finer points, perhaps hoping that it will obfuscate the major issue here and people start discussing the difference between ATP and ITF perhaps.

I don't think it's nitpicking to try to identify what is factual and what is not, in news stories, and in what is said here. I'm trying to identify what was said in the press and what it means, and you are trying to obfuscate (copyright RB) and use it for your own ends. For example, your bolded above: it's not about ATP or ITF. You brought that up. Neither has anything to do with the FO, or the OP, which was about RG, by implication. I have addressed the fact that Rafa has said that he feels that they need a break from each other, and that the ATF has actually spoken to that, and said it's not uncommon. So it's not like the ATP hasn't commented. And for them to say that they won't comment on how they pick umpires for matches is not conspiratorily silent. We have seen that there are norms and guidelines. Otherwise, I don't see why they have to tell us. The rest is just reading in, on your part, and looking for spooks.

 

[Federberg]

ATF? What does the Asian Tennis Federation have to do with this? Or is the US law enforcement arm we're talking about? :snicker

 

[brokenshoelace]

I know you speak English, so I'll assume this post is just pointless sarcasm. Point out where I specified the Nadal fans I was talking about?? Carol is a Nadal fan unless I'm mistaken. Try not to think everything is about you mate. You'll be happier. Perhaps you should have been the one to set Carol right, but you didn't so the rest of us did

...and the rest of you said Nadal fanS are defensive. Nadal fanS can't admit he does anything wrong. Nadal fanS think he's a saint. Notice the "S." Plural. Don't get cute.

What is it with people today and an imperfect grasp of the English language? Plurality doesn't mean all. :nono

Interesting since you only cited one fan, which is singular. But thanks for the grammar lesson, it's no less misplaced than your condescension. Take it from a pro, only be condescending when you're right.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I haven't seen Nadal fans defend or deny the timewasting. I have seen a few on this thread defend the fact that he is able to dictate who umps his matches and that's ridiculous.

I totally disagree with BS's assertion that he has earned the right to do anything like this. No athlete in any sport should be able to dictate who does and doesn't ump their matches. Successful athletes have earned more privileges, I agree with that, but those privileges are money and more influence on things like the schedule and point system (if we are talking tennis). Having a player dictate who is the chair ump is ridiculous. I doubt even Jordan would've had that power or even had the balls to try it and that's saying something. And it is especially retarded when we consider that the reason Rafa wants Carlos gone is due to him actually calling it RIGHT. It'd be one thing if Nadal was on the receiving end of a bunch of bad calls from Carlos spread across multiple matches. If that was the case the player might be able to argue that having the same bad ump in his matches could affect him mentally. Instead he's saying that having someone actually enforce the rules of the game is affecting him mentally. Tough crap!

The petty puta is pretty much saying the rules don't apply to him and the weaklings that "run" tennis are catering to him. If you allow Rafa to determine the chair ump what's the next thing they will allow him to do?

Mourinho has successfully done it in soccer, it's happened in boxing and MMA countless times. Not saying it's right but please don't spread false information under the pretext that this is anything new or unheard of. Jordan's never done it because no athlete in history was as protected by the refs so he had no reason to. Not disputing your logic but I'm disputing the facts you're putting forward.

 

[mrzz]

Even Nadal utters "puta" a lot after missing shots.

Even Nadal? Is he a saint now?

And, before you answer me, remember, you can not curse in this forum!

No, because he was used earlier in this thread as an example of a player who doesn't curse.

Damn it, Broken. You cannot be rational when someone is nit-picking at you. It is against the rules.

By the way... hey, Djokovic fans, I heard the Nadal fans saying you are a bunch of losers. You wouldn't believe who were the most vocal ones...

 

[DarthFed]

I haven't seen Nadal fans defend or deny the timewasting. I have seen a few on this thread defend the fact that he is able to dictate who umps his matches and that's ridiculous.

I totally disagree with BS's assertion that he has earned the right to do anything like this. No athlete in any sport should be able to dictate who does and doesn't ump their matches. Successful athletes have earned more privileges, I agree with that, but those privileges are money and more influence on things like the schedule and point system (if we are talking tennis). Having a player dictate who is the chair ump is ridiculous. I doubt even Jordan would've had that power or even had the balls to try it and that's saying something. And it is especially retarded when we consider that the reason Rafa wants Carlos gone is due to him actually calling it RIGHT. It'd be one thing if Nadal was on the receiving end of a bunch of bad calls from Carlos spread across multiple matches. If that was the case the player might be able to argue that having the same bad ump in his matches could affect him mentally. Instead he's saying that having someone actually enforce the rules of the game is affecting him mentally. Tough crap!

The petty puta is pretty much saying the rules don't apply to him and the weaklings that "run" tennis are catering to him. If you allow Rafa to determine the chair ump what's the next thing they will allow him to do?

Mourinho has successfully done it in soccer, it's happened in boxing and MMA countless times. Not saying it's right but please don't spread false information under the pretext that this is anything new or unheard of. Jordan's never done it because no athlete in history was as protected by the refs so he had no reason to. Not disputing your logic but I'm disputing the facts you're putting forward.

Well I don't watch soccer and don't pay much attention to boxing which is well known for being corrupt. And what were the circumstances behind Mourino and the boxer's complaints? Was it due to the refs actually enforcing the rules?

On average Jordan got a lot of calls but the guy played over one thousand NBA games and even he and the Bulls would've gotten screwed over in a couple of them. I can't even picture him calling up Stern and saying "don't have Crawford or Bavetta ref my games anymore"

 

[Federberg]

...and the rest of you said Nadal fanS are defensive. Nadal fanS can't admit he does anything wrong. Nadal fanS think he's a saint. Notice the "S." Plural. Don't get cute.

What is it with people today and an imperfect grasp of the English language? Plurality doesn't mean all. :nono

Interesting since you only cited one fan, which is singular. But thanks for the grammar lesson, it's no less misplaced than your condescension. Take it from a pro, only be condescending when you're right.

Glad I could assist I was asked to provide an example I did. You see what you want to see. That's cool. Anyway this thread is getting boring now. Moving on.. :angel:

 

[Riotbeard]

I haven't seen Nadal fans defend or deny the timewasting. I have seen a few on this thread defend the fact that he is able to dictate who umps his matches and that's ridiculous.

I totally disagree with BS's assertion that he has earned the right to do anything like this. No athlete in any sport should be able to dictate who does and doesn't ump their matches. Successful athletes have earned more privileges, I agree with that, but those privileges are money and more influence on things like the schedule and point system (if we are talking tennis). Having a player dictate who is the chair ump is ridiculous. I doubt even Jordan would've had that power or even had the balls to try it and that's saying something. And it is especially retarded when we consider that the reason Rafa wants Carlos gone is due to him actually calling it RIGHT. It'd be one thing if Nadal was on the receiving end of a bunch of bad calls from Carlos spread across multiple matches. If that was the case the player might be able to argue that having the same bad ump in his matches could affect him mentally. Instead he's saying that having someone actually enforce the rules of the game is affecting him mentally. Tough crap!

The petty puta is pretty much saying the rules don't apply to him and the weaklings that "run" tennis are catering to him. If you allow Rafa to determine the chair ump what's the next thing they will allow him to do?

Mourinho has successfully done it in soccer, it's happened in boxing and MMA countless times. Not saying it's right but please don't spread false information under the pretext that this is anything new or unheard of. Jordan's never done it because no athlete in history was as protected by the refs so he had no reason to. Not disputing your logic but I'm disputing the facts you're putting forward.

Well I don't watch soccer and don't pay much attention to boxing which is well known for being corrupt. And what were the circumstances behind Mourino and the boxer's complaints? Was it due to the refs actually enforcing the rules?

On average Jordan got a lot of calls but the guy played over one thousand NBA games and even he and the Bulls would've gotten screwed over in a couple of them. I can't even picture him calling up Stern and saying "don't have Crawford or Bavetta ref my games anymore"

This whole line of reasoning is irrelevant, unless your point is that corruption in various forms is rampant through most sports, which I would say is hardly disputed (at least not by me).

 

[Riotbeard]

I'm quoting you, RB, because you are the only one, for PAGES, as I've been catching up, to address the topic of the thread. Otherwise factional bile has been spilled, and even anger at TF. (Thread closed temporarily. Boohoo, and be still my heart.) I bolded a few things above. This thread isn't about Nadal's time-wasting, as you rightly say, it IS about influence used by Nadal, and I have tried to argue that most are not reading the articles carefully, as most seem to be trying to take flaming headlines and running with them, without any consideration of the actual facts. Tennis.com which has already been cited here says that the French Federation claims that Nadal DID NOT request of them that they keep Bernardes from his matches.

Nadal DID make the request to the ATF, it seems, that they take a break for a time, whose spokesman has said that that is not uncommon...that when there are tensions, that either players or umps will request that they not see each other for a bit. Is this really such presumptive bullying use of position on Rafa's part, if it is not uncommon that it happen, after some tensions? It's worth remembering, as the tennis.com article says, the source of the tension with Nadal and Bernardes in Rio was not so much the time violation about serving, as has been much discussed here, as that the original kerfuffle came about when Rafa had his shorts on backwards and Bernardes wouldn't let him leave the court to change them, threatening him with a time violation. (Some will remember that he changed them on court with a towel protection.)

So I object to the notion that we Rafa fans have been silent on it. I've been trying to get everyone to read what has actually been on offer, instead of all of the inferences that everyone is working with. Folks are too willing to buy the explosive headline and not read the details. (And, for the record, I also have admitted to his being a huge time-violator, on this thread, which has been a common theme that Rafa fans won't do of the last several pages.)

Another thing I will say, in general, on this thread (and as always,) is that the detractors come after us Nadal fans for defending him. Broken is the most gimlet-eyed, then probably tented. But, in fairness, when so many detractors sling bile and loads of unfairness, what are we supposed to do? Roll over and play dead? Certain regulars and vocal ones are rather outrageous in their dislike of Nadal, which can often confuse opinion with fact. So we fans defend him. Is that wrong? I think not.

And also, RB, for the correct use of "obfuscate," I will be sending you $20 via Paypal. Word of the day.

Great job on addressing the issue Mox! (that is not a veiled jab, haha). I don't agree with your interpretation, but it is possible to make it. My one question is, if this is common and not about avoiding the rules, why would Novak say it is unfair. This implies that Novak interprets the situation largely similar to me. It's not really in Novak's interest to make that comment IMO, as it could only hurt his relationship with Rafa, and thus a large portion of tennis fans.

 

[Moxie]

^ My reading of Novak's response was that he was answering in the theoretical to a general question, not about the Nadal situation, per se. OK, he knows why he was being asked, but I don't know why it should anger Nadal fans. He didn't say anything directly against Rafa, right?

 

[Federberg]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/05/rafael-nadal-carlos-bernardes-not-work-matches-shorts-video-venus-williams-fine?

 

[Federberg]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-3099594/Roger-Federer-insists-players-not-special-treatment-Rafael-Nadal-s-umpire-request.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

 

[nehmeth]

My one question is, if this is common and not about avoiding the rules, why would Novak say it is unfair. This implies that Novak interprets the situation largely similar to me. It's not really in Novak's interest to make that comment IMO, as it could only hurt his relationship with Rafa.

:nono

2011 hurt his relationship with Rafa... his comments will do nothing.

 

[Federberg]

^I think his days of tiptoeing around are over. Novak is a big dog in his own right now. I'm sure he feels he can say what he wants particularly if it's justified. Just like Roger has done. Stan was a bit more circumspect, but actually made a rather insidious point.