World Cup 2018

[brokenshoelace]

did you see what Hungary (or was it Sweden) did to him in 1960?

As for that Argentina team in 2014, sigh... so basically you're saying that I should ignore the fact that he had the core of the Spanish World Cup winning team in his Barcelona side. That had nothing to do with his success? How can you in the same breathe make so many excuses for his national team?

Of course they had a lot to do with his success at club level. Except, he's still winning after that chore is gone, which you're either ignoring or unaware of. There are no excuses for his national team. I only offered reasons (ie teammates missing chances which is undeniable, players being injured, which is also a fact, and the fact that it's not nearly as talented as you think it is...a point which you haven't refuted).

 

[Federberg]

Buddy, what success has Spain had in the 2014 WC and 2016 European Championships? None, and that's because their golden generation si gone. Alonso and Xavi are gone. Puyol is gone. Villa is gone. Busquets remains and Iniesta is old. Yet, Messi still won the Champions League in 2015 (with only old Iniesta and Busquets from that generation, and yes he had Neymar and Suarez but we won't debate who had a bigger impact and who was the heart of the team especially in a relatively sub-par midfield that didn't dominate the way they used to), and won La Liga almost every year since.

This is why I assume you don't pay close attention to football, because you're stuck on out-dated narrative and don't seem to be too aware of the changes in Messi's teams.

Lol! I should ignore possibly the greatest front 3 in club football history? Come on man...

 

[brokenshoelace]

It almost seems like you're saying that we should ignore performance for your country because the margins are so slim. Somehow the greats have managed to show themselves on that stage. What makes me laugh is that you're so intent on making excuses for Messi at the international level but somehow everything Barcelona (Barcelona! Not Messi) has done is down to Messi? Come on man...

What idiot would disregard how good Barca's team was? But for the 10000000000th time, that Barca team is almost gone, and he's still winning. Also, I just showed you how Zidane won the 1998 World Cup for example. Do you not remember Buruchaga actually scoring his 1 on 1 vs. Germany in 1986? Higuain didn't score his. He helped Diego cement his legacy. Higuain didn't do the same for Messi. Those are the margins I'm talking about. If you want to be a dogmatic simpleton that's on you, but again that's a very obvious point. Of course, nobody can deny that Maradona's 1986 World Cup as a whole was something beyond any player. He was magic.

 

[Federberg]

Of course they had a lot to do with his success at club level. Except, he's still winning after that chore is gone, which you're either ignoring or unaware of. There are no excuses for his national team. I only offered reasons (ie teammates missing chances which is undeniable, players being injured, which is also a fact, and the fact that it's not nearly as talented as you think it is...a point which you haven't refuted).

The likes of Xavi and Iniesta are gone (or in their dotage) so what. The team still has a great deal of quality. You keep trying to make it seem like Messi has been doing it all by himself at Barcelona. That's still a great team. I really hope you're not trying to defend Messi by saying that the fact that Spain has not been so successful in recent times then Barcelona's performances redound to Messi? That's crazy..

 

[brokenshoelace]

Lol! I should ignore possibly the greatest front 3 in club football history? Come on man...

Who the fuck asked you to ignore?

I asked you to INFORM yourself on how that team played. How Messi was the playmaker AND the scorer. How he facilitated things for those 3 because Barca no longer had the midfield they once did. How he evolved into a playmaker. But this would require you going into details, understanding what the hell you're watching (or not watching) as opposed to making one-liner smartass responses based on looking at a team line-up and going "they're good, so of course Messi won.").

 

[Federberg]

What idiot would disregard how good Barca's team was? But for the 10000000000th time, that Barca team is almost gone, and he's still winning. Also, I just showed you how Zidane won the 1998 World Cup for example. Do you not remember Buruchaga actually scoring his 1 on 1 vs. Germany in 1986? Higuain didn't score his. He helped Diego cement his legacy. Higuain didn't do the same for Messi. Those are the margins I'm talking about. If you want to be a dogmatic simpleton that's on you, but again that's a very obvious point. Of course, nobody can deny that Maradona's 1986 World Cup as a whole was something beyond any player. He was magic.

Thank you for showing what I watched
I agree about the slim margins. But does it have to be that way? If Messi was as great as you seem to think it probably shouldn't have rested on Higuain. A player a class above Buruchaga in my view. Let me ask you this question. Do you think Messi has ever approached the level Diego was playing at in '86? For Argentina I mean...

 

[brokenshoelace]

The likes of Xavi and Iniesta are gone (or in their dotage) so what. The team still has a great deal of quality. You keep trying to make it seem like Messi has been doing it all by himself at Barcelona. That's still a great team. I really hope you're not trying to defend Messi by saying that the fact that Spain has not been so successful in recent times then Barcelona's performances redound to Messi? That's crazy..

Ahhhhhhhh and there we have it. You don't watch. This year, he literally did it by himself. If he didn't score or create, Barcelona had nothing. Go on the internet, google, research. This was accepted this year. Neymar was gone and Suarez had an awful season by his standards where all his goals were just easy tap ins. Messi carried them every fucking game. The one game he didn't play, they lost.

Again, when it comes to this, you don't know what you're talking about because you're literally talking about something you don't follow closely.

And yes, I typically enjoy debating you too but this is tiresome as you're clearly uninformed. There's no way a person who watched Barcelona this year would make this claim especially after everyone and their mother thought they're toast after Neymar left and were humiliated by Madrid in the Super Cup (Madrid having a much more talented team). Go back and look at the narrative then, and the odds. Messi carried them by himself, yes.

Also about quality players, didn't Brazilian Ronaldo have Rivaldo and Ronaldinho? Roberto Carlos? Cafu?

Didn't Zidane have Deschamps, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieira in France? Raul, Figo, Roberto Carlos and Mekelele in Madrid?

Didn't Pele have Jairzinho, Revelino, Tostao, Carlos Alberto, etc... So what on earth are you on about?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Thank you for showing what I watched
I agree about the slim margins. But does it have to be that way? If Messi was as great as you seem to think it probably shouldn't have rested on Higuain. A player a class above Buruchaga in my view. Let me ask you this question. Do you think Messi has ever approached the level Diego was playing at in '86? For Argentina I mean...

For Argentina never. No player has ever played at the international level as well as Maradona did that tournament. Maradona is the only other serious GOAT candidate in my view.

For the record, I'm a Juve and Italy fan, before anyone assumes I have Argentine blood in me.

 

[Federberg]

Who the fuck asked you to ignore?

I asked you to INFORM yourself on how that team played. How Messi was the playmaker AND the scorer. How he facilitated things for those 3 because Barca no longer had the midfield they once did. How he evolved into a playmaker. But this would require you going into details, understanding what the hell you're watching (or not watching) as opposed to making one-liner smartass responses based on looking at a team line-up and going "they're good, so of course Messi won.").

I can see you're getting emotionally invested in this
On one hand you seem to be claiming that Barcelona team was suddenly average but you seem to be conceding they probably had the greatest front 3 in club history. Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? I'm not sure I'm missing any details. You're trying construct a narrative where Messi comes out the way you want him to. I don't need to create war and peace to call that argument into question

 

[brokenshoelace]

I can see you're getting emotionally invested in this
On one hand you seem to be claiming that Barcelona team was suddenly average but you seem to be conceding they probably had the greatest front 3 in club history. Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? I'm not sure I'm missing any details. You're trying construct a narrative where Messi comes out the way you want him to. I don't need to create war and peace to call that argument into question

Never called them average. In 2015, with that front 3, they were magnificent. I'm saying they played very differently to where they no longer had a midfield that produced great build-up play. Messi became their build-up play. He was the playmaker AND primary goalscorer. He became the system, rather than part of the system.

This year though, after Neymar left, they certainly weren't too far above average without Messi and the performances prove it. By the way, in the soccer circles, this is an accepted narrative, not a constructed one, and luckily, I don't need an alien from Mars to agree

 

[Federberg]

Ahhhhhhhh and there we have it. You don't watch. This year, he literally did it by himself. If he didn't score or create, Barcelona had nothing. Go on the internet, google, research. This was accepted this year. Neymar was gone and Suarez had an awful season by his standards where all his goals were just easy tap ins. Messi carried them every fucking game. The one game he didn't play, they lost.

Again, when it comes to this, you don't know what you're talking about because you're literally talking about something you don't follow closely.

And yes, I typically enjoy debating you too but this is tiresome as you're clearly uninformed. There's no way a person who watched Barcelona this year would make this claim especially after everyone and their mother thought they're toast after Neymar left and were humiliated by Madrid in the Super Cup (Madrid having a much more talented team). Go back and look at the narrative then, and the odds. Messi carried them by himself, yes.

Also about quality players, didn't Brazilian Ronaldo have Rivaldo and Ronaldinho? Roberto Carlos? Cafu?

Didn't Zidane have Deschamps, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieira in France? Raul, Figo, Roberto Carlos and Mekelele in Madrid?

Didn't Pele have Jairzinho, Revelino, Tostao, Carlos Alberto, etc... So what on earth are you on about?

I'm not sure where you get that from mate. What in my response to you gave you the impression that I don't watch. Yes the team is not as good as it once was. Frankly Spanish football is not as good as it once was. I think the cycle is about to turn to be honest. That in no way means that the current Barcelona team is filled with scrubs. I agree that Suarez had a poor season. I even agree that Messi was a significant part of their La Liga success. But you're trying to extract conclusions from my responses to you. That seems almost desperate to me. Are you now trying to use this years Barcelona performance to push your Messi for GOAT thesis? A bit thin don't you think? He's a great great player. He is simply not the best I've ever seen. Sorry

 

[Federberg]

Never called them average. In 2015, with that front 3, they were magnificent. I'm saying they played very differently to where they no longer had a midfield that produced great build-up play. Messi became their build-up play. He was the playmaker AND primary goalscorer. He became the system, rather than part of the system.

This year though, after Neymar left, they certainly weren't too far above average without Messi and the performances prove it. By the way, in the soccer circles, this is an accepted narrative, not a constructed one, and luckily, I don't need an alien from Mars to agree

I think you're trying too hard to support Messi as greatest ever. I disagree. Lots of people do. I think he's a phenomenal player. At club level. The fact that he's played for one of the greatest club sides of all time should be a significant part of the discussion, you simply cannot, you cannot brush that under the carpet. Club football and all the monetary rewards has created an altogether different incentive structure in the modern age. That's just a fact. Messi has been hugely more consistent than the greats before him. Part of that is because of who he is, his character. But a lot of that also has to do with the vastly different incentive structure that exists today. Does that mean that we should ignore his club achievements vs the other greats? No. But it certainly means we should understand that a lot of why he has been so consistent is because of the world we live in today. I have no doubt that if sponsors and club finances were what they are now back when Ronaldo and Maradona were playing, they would probably have behaved themselves a bit more. Can we come up with mitigating circumstances for some of Messi's lack of success at the national level? Yes of course we can. But it's not like Messi had a San Marino level squad playing with him at the national level. With what he had, if he is as good as you seem to think. He should have done better. That's just the way it is

 

[Federberg]

For Argentina never. No player has ever played at the international level as well as Maradona did that tournament. Maradona is the only other serious GOAT candidate in my view.

For the record, I'm a Juve and Italy fan, before anyone assumes I have Argentine blood in me.

I actually think Ronaldo was right up there in 98. Sadly that final and the stuff that went on behind the scenes wipes it off the board. Pele was right up there, not so much in 70. He didn't need to be. But in preceding tournaments. Given time I'm sure I can think of other players who have stood out for their national teams. While I'm not in anyway saying that Portugal has a chance here in Russia, so far, what Cristiano has been doing is right up there. If by some miracle Portugal were to win this World Cup then I can't think of anything worse for Messi's legacy.

Never thought you had Argentinian blood. I think it's fairly clear to all you have Messi-fan blood pulsing through your veins

 

[brokenshoelace]

I think you're trying too hard to support Messi as greatest ever. I disagree. Lots of people do. I think he's a phenomenal player. At club level. The fact that he's played for one of the greatest club sides of all time should be a significant part of the discussion, you simply cannot, you cannot brush that under the carpet. Club football and all the monetary rewards has created an altogether different incentive structure in the modern age. That's just a fact. Messi has been hugely more consistent than the greats before him. Part of that is because of who he is, his character. But a lot of that also has to do with the vastly different incentive structure that exists today. Does that mean that we should ignore his club achievements vs the other greats? No. But it certainly means we should understand that a lot of why he has been so consistent is because of the world we live in today. I have no doubt that if sponsors and club finances were what they are now back when Ronaldo and Maradona were playing, they would probably have behaved themselves a bit more. Can we come up with mitigating circumstances for some of Messi's lack of success at the national level? Yes of course we can. But it's not like Messi had a San Marino level squad playing with him at the national level. With what he had, if he is as good as you seem to think. He should have done better. That's just the way it is

You literally ignore every argument that shows inconstancy so I'll give it a rest.

The most glaring one is the talent around Zidane and especially, Brazilian Ronaldo at both club and international levels. The kind of talent Messi never came close to having. But you downplay Messi's club success due to that same thing, while championing the other 2.

 

[Federberg]

You literally ignore every argument that shows inconstancy so I'll give it a rest.

The most glaring one is the talent around Zidane and especially, Brazilian Ronaldo at both club and international levels. The kind of talent Messi never came close to having. But you downplay Messi's club success due to that same thing, while championing the other 2.

Lol! I could say the same. You ignore the quality of the club team he's played for. Despite the evidence showing that the core of that team has won at the international level. But to directly answer your point (and I believe I've already alluded to this), there's no question that those guys played in good teams. They pretty much have to be to get to finals. One of the things that has always been different about Messi is the fact that teams always seem to have to be built around him. He has to bear some responsibility for that. It's funny because in the Cristiano vs Messi debate I'm always squarely on Messi's side. But a friend of mine made an interesting argument some years ago. He argued that you could pick 10 players to play with Cristiano and come up with a great team far more easily than with Messi. I think he was right.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Lol! I could say the same. You ignore the quality of the club team he's played for. Despite the evidence showing that the core of that team has won at the international level. But to directly answer your point (and I believe I've already alluded to this), there's no question that those guys played in good teams. They pretty much have to be to get to finals. One of the things that has always been different about Messi is the fact that teams always seem to have to be built around him. He has to bear some responsibility for that. It's funny because in the Cristiano vs Messi debate I'm always squarely on Messi's side. But a friend of mine made an interesting argument some years ago. He argued that you could pick 10 players to play with Cristiano and come up with a great team far more easily than with Messi. I think he was right.

My god, no. I really need to tap out. How the hell did I ignore the quality of the club? I said only an idiot wouldn't recognize how good that team was. Except, I broke it down to phases, and showed you how that team evolved after the Spanish chore was gone, which to you means ignoring (but curiously, you keep ignoring the defenses in Pele's time, and the 4-2-4 formations, and the 7-3 scorelines...because he was roughed up in a World Cup once).

 

[Federberg]

Let's just agree to disagree. You think Messi is the GOAT. I don't. I think he's one of the greatest players ever. There's really no argument there. As for Pele, he was roughed up more than once. He, like Diego, were tough mf's, as was George Best by the way. They just managed to survive. I'm glad that Lionel has been able to play his football with greater protection. That's made the attacking flow better and has been great for the game. I just think it's disingenuous to ignore the changes in the game

 

[Horsa]

1stly, I'd like to say thank you very much to Federberg for teaching us ladies more about the game. (I only learnt about different positions & off-side from watching the full Monty when he was trying to get the lads into position to start their dance routine & was using football examples then 1 of them said "why didn't you just tell us you wanted us in a straight line?". Well, something like that anyway. I thought Moxie might have known that as she's the Queen of film). I disagree with the fact that if you don't watch you shouldn't have anything to say because we should have the right to ask questions & learn from other people & we all get our information in different ways. Some people get it from newspapers some on the news. Fans can't always get the chance to watch games for whatever reason. Everyone's entitled to have & air an opinion as long as they respect other people's right to do the same. I do, however, say when I don't think I have the right to an opinion & why. You don't have to know about something to talk about it. An example of this is when I went to Durham for the 1st time I got asked what my opinion on designer babies was & ended up having a hour chat instead of shopping which I did get round to doing. I also got talking to someone who was a chess player. I never got taught to play chess. I only knew that it's played on a draughtsboard with different moves for each piece & different looking pieces & what the object of the game is. (I like the knights best & knew their move somehow). He explained to me then we got talking about books. I thought everyone knew Charlotte Bronte went to the Clergy Daughter's School in Cowan Bridge which is the setting for Lowood in Jane Eyre but that just proves the point we all tend to judge people by our standards which we shouldn't. (Mind you, I've always got caught up in conversations I know nothing about & hardly get stuck for words. I've had to learn how to deal with it. I nearly always end up with an answer somehow which is appropriate most of the time). We all have different strengths & weaknesses which our hobbies & interests are based on & vice versa. It's good to ask questions. If you don't ask, you don't learn. I question the man who comes to service the boiler to find out why he does what & I've learnt a lot from it. I think that there's always something we can learn from everyone. I'm very sorry for the lengthy comment but I felt the need to say what I did.

 

[atttomole]

Ahhhhhhhh and there we have it. You don't watch. This year, he literally did it by himself. If he didn't score or create, Barcelona had nothing. Go on the internet, google, research. This was accepted this year. Neymar was gone and Suarez had an awful season by his standards where all his goals were just easy tap ins. Messi carried them every fucking game. The one game he didn't play, they lost.

Again, when it comes to this, you don't know what you're talking about because you're literally talking about something you don't follow closely.

And yes, I typically enjoy debating you too but this is tiresome as you're clearly uninformed. There's no way a person who watched Barcelona this year would make this claim especially after everyone and their mother thought they're toast after Neymar left and were humiliated by Madrid in the Super Cup (Madrid having a much more talented team). Go back and look at the narrative then, and the odds. Messi carried them by himself, yes.

Also about quality players, didn't Brazilian Ronaldo have Rivaldo and Ronaldinho? Roberto Carlos? Cafu?

Didn't Zidane have Deschamps, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieira in France? Raul, Figo, Roberto Carlos and Mekelele in Madrid?

Didn't Pele have Jairzinho, Revelino, Tostao, Carlos Alberto, etc... So what on earth are you on about?

I do not have much time to debate this weekend, but didn’t Messi also have Di Maria, Aguero, Tevez and Higuan in the national team?

 

[atttomole]

I'll also ask this to @atttomole because he seems like he follows soccer and knows what he's talking about. You say Argentina has good midfielders, I ask who? Banega? OK, he's decent but VERY inconsistent. Pastore wasn't called up and even though I think he should have been, anyone who's followed him knows how overrated he's been. He could barely get playing time at PSG. Lo Celso? He's young and failed miserably in his audition against Real Madrid. A better question to both you and especially, @Federberg... How many midfielders in Argentina would make it to Brazil's squad. Germany? Spain? France? Belgium? Hell, Croatia, who has Modric, Rakitic, and Kovacic (Argentina would kill for one of them)... So these good teammates are where exactly? By the way, the answer to my question is legitimately, zero. And to prove it, I'll throw around the following names: Casemiro, Coutinho, Ozil, Khedira, Kroos, Thiago Alcantara, Koke, Busquets, Iniesta, Isco, Kante, Pogba, Tolisso, Witsel, De Bruyne, Naingolann (who wasn't even called up. That's how good Belgium's midfield is when they can afford to keep a player like him out, even if it's ridiculous), Modric, Rakitic, Kovacic... Does Argentina have any midfielder close to those guys? I rest my case.

Banega is actually an excellent midfielder. He can dictate play and release passes at the right time. He is a true playmaker. The reason he is talked about less is that most attention has been on on Messi, Aguero, Higuain and Tevez when he was still in the national team. Pastors is a good alternative as a playmaker. His problem is playing at PSG, where Emery has been tinkering with the team and decided to use a 4-3-3 with Rabiot, Veratti and Draxler or Lo Celso.

Like I said before, Argentina has problems with player relationships. Tevez is said to have been left out in 2014 because of his incompatibility with Messi, especially with respect to the zones they occupy on the pitch. Dybala was initially left out of the team for the same reasons this year, but Sampaoili changed his mind after some former players conplained.

For the national team you only need a few weeks of preparation because players rarely play together. The coach simply needs to play the players in their proper positions and motivate them. Argentina has always been Argentina and are always considered among the favorites. They can not run away from that.

If you look at the current Brazilian midfield, you have Casemiro, who is a hard nosed competitior, without much skill, but he does his job well as a holding midfielder. Paulinho is similar but more mature and more tidy. Coutinho is the creative force in the middle and is well protected by the other two. I would not call that a star studded midfield. Argentina could have done the same with Biglia, Mascheranno and Banega/Pastore.