World Cup 2018

[Federberg]

That was very exciting. And it's not off-sides why? Because the defender was with him?

He has to be the last man apart from the goalie. In this case I don't believe he was. Even if he's in line he's fine.

 

[Moxie]

He has to be the last man apart from the goalie. In this case I don't believe he was. Even if he's in line he's fine.

Oh, yeah, no, I didn't think he was but I was nervous for it. I thought it was a good example for clarifying. Here's another question: how do they decide who wears their away kit? Flip a coin?

 

[mrzz]

 

[Moxie]

View attachment 1867

Is that for me? Helpful. Sorry to be so Football 101.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Please elaborate

Spanish teams have almost literally won every European trophy over the past 5 years or so. And i hate to break it to you but it's not just Real Madrid and Barcelona. See what Atletico Madrid have done in the Champions League, and in the Europa league. See Sevilla winning the Europa league 3 years in a row...

So Messi is literally doing in what is undeniably the best team in the world (PLEASE don't tell me you're one of the "PL is the best league in the world" people).

 

[brokenshoelace]

I would go further. Not only do I think that the balance of power between attack and defence has now skewed in favour of attackers I don’t see too many great defenders anymore. Not of the quality of the Maldinis and Baresis. So not just the players but the rules

Individually the quality of defenders has dropped. Definitely compared to the heyday of Serie A. I don't think that's debatable. Even collectively, at the club level it has dropped. At the international level I think it's the opposite in that most teams now know how to sit back and park the bus, play compact, and make it almost impossible for the other team to break them down (see any World Cup match this year).

But do you seriously think for example, that the quality of defending now is worse than it was in Pele's day? You don't think it was swayed towards attackers when Brazil literally employed a 4-2-4 formation to win the 1970 WC? At least be consistent. It's bad enough you don't watch the guy you're talking about regularly.

 

[brokenshoelace]

You get a fella from Mars looking at the data and I think they’ll be on my side mate. It’s funny how the core of that Barcelona team have been able to win big for Spain and your boy has done nothing. Zip

Because the chore of that Barcelona team constituted like 80% of that Spain side while that Argentina side had nobody but Messi and some really good attackers...

Here's a thread, I found on twitter, in which someone posted some VERY good tweets about Argentina in the Messi era. I'd love to hear your counter-arguments, because to me, the guy hit the nail on the head:

"Argentina have put themselves in a position where it's impossible to compete. I have no doubt that 20 or 30 years ago, people would have seen their 2011-2016 period differently. Three finals and they didn't lose a single game in regulation time in four major tournaments.In the 2011 Copa América, they lost on penalties against Uruguay. In the 2014 World Cup, they lost to Germany in extra time. Then they lost two Copa América finals against Chile on penalties. Argentina never had that moment of luck all champions need.

In fact, you can argue that Argentina had bad luck in general. It's not normal to lose 2 out of 2 penalty shootouts in finals. Or the fact that Di María got injured in the last two finals and also in the game against Belgium in the World. Once, ok, but three times!?

Argentina score one of the big chances they missed in 2014 and everything goes from shit to amazing. Same game, same players. I honestly don't understand why people are so basic. We have so much information, yet it seems that people are dumber than ever (this point is so true and while I would never call you dumb, Federberg, I think you've fallen victim into some extremely basic logic here).The problem with today's society is that people don't analyze anything. Everyone talks in superlatives. The biggest the hot take, the most success you have as a journalist/pundit. You can even become the president of the US just lying and using superlatives.

People used to praise losing teams. Holland in 1974, Brazil in 1982, etc. Now everyone wants to be the first idiot to say the most ridiculous thing. Everything is either amazing or shit. There is nothing in between. Reaching three finals in a row is VERY difficult. Why do people think that Argentina MUST win something? They aren't Brazil. They aren't Germany. How many of their current players would make the Spain squad? 5? Maybe 6? That type of pressure have affected everyone, the players and also the coaches.

Argentina had great forwards and Mascherano. The rest of the team (Romero, Biglia, Garay, Rojo, Enzo, Demichelis and so on) was average. They were a competitive team, but they weren't on the same level as Spain or Germany during that 2011/16 period. Argentina's GK during that period, Romero, couldn't start for 3 different teams since 2013. They haven't produced an elite full back since Zanetti retired. They don't have midfielders like Redondo or Verón. They haven't had a top CB until recently (Otamendi) and he's no Ayala

That obligation to win, unjustified, makes Argentina play with fear after the 2014 final. The external noise and the internal pressure is huge. They are more afraid of losing than they have desire to win. You can't play football/compete at the highest level like that. That pressure affects the coaches too. In order to get short terms results, they renounce to their ideas. There is no way Sampaoli would do the things he's done under different circumstances. That's why capable coaches make the stupid (mostly conservative) decisions they make

Also, I don't know how an honest person can look at the current Argentina team and say they have a great team. The current Argentina team would have been 8th out of 10 in qualifying if not for Messi. They even lost to Spain 6-1 recently. The worst Argentina team in my lifetime. Speaking of Messi, it's the first time I have seen him affected by the pressure. It's almost like he saw the starting XI and realized the mistake he made coming out of retirement. It was obvious that their cycle was over and they needed new players (Argentina aren't producing)

I always thought that the football gods were fair. But they haven't been fair with Messi. He's never been bailed out by a teammate. Not once. The closest thing is Higuaín vs Belgium and Messi started that play. No Eder, no Thuram. no Götze, no Burruchaga... Nothing. Btw, it's amazing how people always compare Messi's lows with other players' high. Don't remember that ever happening to anyone, in any sport. The last (bad) game has more weight than hundreds of great games. And people can watch every fucking game. But that's the era we live in."





Now, I don't agree with EVERYTHING he said (like Argentina winning not being a must in the past), and some of what he said about this year's team is an indictment of Messi (lack of leadership is one), but I find it hilarious that you, Federberg, a guy who literally had no idea Aguero didn't play beyond the first match in the 2014 World Cup (this happened in the football thread), or that Di Maria missed the final in all 3 of Argentina's final losses, feel like an authority to discuss the talent around Messi. Look, if you don't watch, you really can't comment. And no, some guy from Mars looking at numbers and agreeing with you is not an argument . That's literally un-provable nonsense you came up with.

Let me ask you something, since you feel you "don't allow" the excuse of a weak cast. Let's say Messi picks the cast (despite every report claiming he disagreed with Sampaoli's selection last night and it caused a rift...but then you'd have to research and be informed on the topic you're arguing about which, when it comes to football, you have no interest in doing...doesn't stop you from sharing your knowledge though). Please tell me, who are these good midfielders that didn't make the cut or didn't play, that should have played, and what do you know about them? This is not a trick.. I honestly have the feeling you're unfamiliar with many of these players yet you feel fit to throw your weight around.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I'll also ask this to @atttomole because he seems like he follows soccer and knows what he's talking about. You say Argentina has good midfielders, I ask who? Banega? OK, he's decent but VERY inconsistent. Pastore wasn't called up and even though I think he should have been, anyone who's followed him knows how overrated he's been. He could barely get playing time at PSG. Lo Celso? He's young and failed miserably in his audition against Real Madrid. A better question to both you and especially, @Federberg... How many midfielders in Argentina would make it to Brazil's squad. Germany? Spain? France? Belgium? Hell, Croatia, who has Modric, Rakitic, and Kovacic (Argentina would kill for one of them)... So these good teammates are where exactly? By the way, the answer to my question is legitimately, zero. And to prove it, I'll throw around the following names: Casemiro, Coutinho, Ozil, Khedira, Kroos, Thiago Alcantara, Koke, Busquets, Iniesta, Isco, Kante, Pogba, Tolisso, Witsel, De Bruyne, Naingolann (who wasn't even called up. That's how good Belgium's midfield is when they can afford to keep a player like him out, even if it's ridiculous), Modric, Rakitic, Kovacic... Does Argentina have any midfielder close to those guys? I rest my case.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Also, I find it curious that Federberg has yet to list me the players he would rate above Messi historically.

 

[Federberg]

Spanish teams have almost literally won every European trophy over the past 5 years or so. And i hate to break it to you but it's not just Real Madrid and Barcelona. See what Atletico Madrid have done in the Champions League, and in the Europa league. See Sevilla winning the Europa league 3 years in a row...

So Messi is literally doing in what is undeniably the best team in the world (PLEASE don't tell me you're one of the "PL is the best league in the world" people).

Thought that was what you were saying. My response to you is that European football historically has had cycles of dominance where different leagues have sucked in the best players in the world. We've seen periods where it was English clubs, Italian clubs, Spanish etc. Spain has been having it's day. It's a good thing. There's no question that the premier league has not been in the ascendancy for quite some time. The fact that Spain has been doing well right now is known. That's Spain. See what I did there? Not Messi. Spain. And you have corroborated it by mentioning the success of Atletico and Sevilla. By the way the Vincente Calderon is a much more fun stadium to go to than Santiago Bernabeu. You seem to want to attribute Spanish success to Messi. Last I recall it wasn't Messi who was winning world cups and European Cups but Spain which goes to my point

 

[Federberg]

Individually the quality of defenders has dropped. Definitely compared to the heyday of Serie A. I don't think that's debatable. Even collectively, at the club level it has dropped. At the international level I think it's the opposite in that most teams now know how to sit back and park the bus, play compact, and make it almost impossible for the other team to break them down (see any World Cup match this year).

But do you seriously think for example, that the quality of defending now is worse than it was in Pele's day? You don't think it was swayed towards attackers when Brazil literally employed a 4-2-4 formation to win the 1970 WC? At least be consistent. It's bad enough you don't watch the guy you're talking about regularly.

Lol! Why do you keep trying to create this reality where you claim I don't watch football? It's funny. I'm not going to bother trying to contest that. You accused DF of being Trumpian on another thread, I think that's what you're trying to do here. Gaslight the audience into a false reality. Defending was tougher in those days, defenders could get away with things then that wouldn't be permitted now. Surely you see that? One of my charges against Messi is the fact that his physical frailties are protected not only because he plays in one of the least physical leagues - many of the fouls given against him would be waved off in England and Germany for example - he wouldn't translate as well. Now don't get excited, I think if he played in a top team in the UK he would have his fun, but probably less so than in Spain. That's just a fact. My larger point is that what the likes of Maradona and Pele had to face from defenders and let me add George Best into the mix, would take a huge piece of Messi's effectiveness away. Yet you want to compare what he's been able to do playing for one of the greatest club teams of all time with what they went through. It's so one sided it's laughable.

But in any case, just look at what you've written. I've bolded it for you. You're not actually disagreeing with my point. In this day an age the skew is towards attacking play. Messi is thriving in an environment that didn't exist for the likes of Maradona and Pele. Yet they got theirs at International level. Messi hasn't

 

[Federberg]

Also, I find it curious that Federberg has yet to list me the players he would rate above Messi historically.

No mate. I already answered exactly that question to Equineann. Do yourself a favour and read the thread

 

[Federberg]

Because the chore of that Barcelona team constituted like 80% of that Spain side while that Argentina side had nobody but Messi and some really good attackers...

Here's a thread, I found on twitter, in which someone posted some VERY good tweets about Argentina in the Messi era. I'd love to hear your counter-arguments, because to me, the guy hit the nail on the head:

"Argentina have put themselves in a position where it's impossible to compete. I have no doubt that 20 or 30 years ago, people would have seen their 2011-2016 period differently. Three finals and they didn't lose a single game in regulation time in four major tournaments.In the 2011 Copa América, they lost on penalties against Uruguay. In the 2014 World Cup, they lost to Germany in extra time. Then they lost two Copa América finals against Chile on penalties. Argentina never had that moment of luck all champions need.

In fact, you can argue that Argentina had bad luck in general. It's not normal to lose 2 out of 2 penalty shootouts in finals. Or the fact that Di María got injured in the last two finals and also in the game against Belgium in the World. Once, ok, but three times!?

Argentina score one of the big chances they missed in 2014 and everything goes from shit to amazing. Same game, same players. I honestly don't understand why people are so basic. We have so much information, yet it seems that people are dumber than ever (this point is so true and while I would never call you dumb, Federberg, I think you've fallen victim into some extremely basic logic here).The problem with today's society is that people don't analyze anything. Everyone talks in superlatives. The biggest the hot take, the most success you have as a journalist/pundit. You can even become the president of the US just lying and using superlatives.

People used to praise losing teams. Holland in 1974, Brazil in 1982, etc. Now everyone wants to be the first idiot to say the most ridiculous thing. Everything is either amazing or shit. There is nothing in between. Reaching three finals in a row is VERY difficult. Why do people think that Argentina MUST win something? They aren't Brazil. They aren't Germany. How many of their current players would make the Spain squad? 5? Maybe 6? That type of pressure have affected everyone, the players and also the coaches.

Argentina had great forwards and Mascherano. The rest of the team (Romero, Biglia, Garay, Rojo, Enzo, Demichelis and so on) was average. They were a competitive team, but they weren't on the same level as Spain or Germany during that 2011/16 period. Argentina's GK during that period, Romero, couldn't start for 3 different teams since 2013. They haven't produced an elite full back since Zanetti retired. They don't have midfielders like Redondo or Verón. They haven't had a top CB until recently (Otamendi) and he's no Ayala

That obligation to win, unjustified, makes Argentina play with fear after the 2014 final. The external noise and the internal pressure is huge. They are more afraid of losing than they have desire to win. You can't play football/compete at the highest level like that. That pressure affects the coaches too. In order to get short terms results, they renounce to their ideas. There is no way Sampaoli would do the things he's done under different circumstances. That's why capable coaches make the stupid (mostly conservative) decisions they make

Also, I don't know how an honest person can look at the current Argentina team and say they have a great team. The current Argentina team would have been 8th out of 10 in qualifying if not for Messi. They even lost to Spain 6-1 recently. The worst Argentina team in my lifetime. Speaking of Messi, it's the first time I have seen him affected by the pressure. It's almost like he saw the starting XI and realized the mistake he made coming out of retirement. It was obvious that their cycle was over and they needed new players (Argentina aren't producing)

I always thought that the football gods were fair. But they haven't been fair with Messi. He's never been bailed out by a teammate. Not once. The closest thing is Higuaín vs Belgium and Messi started that play. No Eder, no Thuram. no Götze, no Burruchaga... Nothing. Btw, it's amazing how people always compare Messi's lows with other players' high. Don't remember that ever happening to anyone, in any sport. The last (bad) game has more weight than hundreds of great games. And people can watch every fucking game. But that's the era we live in."





Now, I don't agree with EVERYTHING he said (like Argentina winning not being a must in the past), and some of what he said about this year's team is an indictment of Messi (lack of leadership is one), but I find it hilarious that you, Federberg, a guy who literally had no idea Aguero didn't play beyond the first match in the 2014 World Cup (this happened in the football thread), or that Di Maria missed the final in all 3 of Argentina's final losses, feel like an authority to discuss the talent around Messi. Look, if you don't watch, you really can't comment. And no, some guy from Mars looking at numbers and agreeing with you is not an argument . That's literally un-provable nonsense you came up with.

Let me ask you something, since you feel you "don't allow" the excuse of a weak cast. Let's say Messi picks the cast (despite every report claiming he disagreed with Sampaoli's selection last night and it caused a rift...but then you'd have to research and be informed on the topic you're arguing about which, when it comes to football, you have no interest in doing...doesn't stop you from sharing your knowledge though). Please tell me, who are these good midfielders that didn't make the cut or didn't play, that should have played, and what do you know about them? This is not a trick.. I honestly have the feeling you're unfamiliar with many of these players yet you feel fit to throw your weight around.

Before I start, can I just say that I love debating with you, @Moxie and @britbox. You all have strong intelligent minds. Bat shit crazy as far as I'm concerned with some of the stuff you believe or debate. But there it is, and I'm sure you feel the same about some of my views It's great fun and the reason I bother looking at this forum.

I smiled when you brought the twitter poster into it. I was actually reading a rant on twitter by some Canadian pundit yesterday. He was calling Messi a fraud and he didn't want to hear anyone bring his name up in GOAT debates anymore. I'm not going to post it here. Don't really care about what other folks think. I can stand on my own two feet, but my point is that the social media-verse has got counter-arguments so it's pointless bringing them into this. I believe you and I are plenty smart enough to promote our own ideas

You know.. it's funny. When I was in Brazil in 2014. I chatted with a group of Argentinians in a bar. You won't believe this, but I was an advocate for Messi. They wouldn't hear of it. They actually accused me of having European football blinkers. I didn't dare bring up Maradona's name for fear they might get offended that I was implying some sort of comparison. From his own country men! I rest my case.

As for your accusation that I didn't know this that or the other about the specifics of the team in 2014? I'm not sure I agree with that. But quite frankly in 2014 I was at the World Cup, it's entirely possible that I wasn't paying that much attention as I spent a heck of a lot of time soaking up the atmosphere in between the 5 live matches I watched, trying to find some restaurant that @Moxie had mentioned in Salvador, drinking, and playing golf. If you think that makes you a greater authority on football than me, that's your deal. I don't know whether you go to World Cups but I do. I've been on the ground at World Cups since 1998 on my own dime and you tend to get caught up in the pageantry and fun and perhaps one pays a little less attention to who specifically plays from 1 through 11. But what does happen is that you actually watch the football played, the feeling, the tactics the rhythm. Let me tell you, Messi has never stood out in any of those events. Whether in bar conversations, or conversations outside stadiums. I remember in '98, the excitement all around France about Ronaldo. In France! He was the player of that tournament. France stumbled their way into that final and Zidane shone in what has to be one of the more bizarre finals, but before that day the talk was all about what Ronaldo was doing. My point is that the great ones normally shine, Messi hasn't. You can make any excuse you want but them's the facts

 

[brokenshoelace]

Lol! Why do you keep trying to create this reality where you claim I don't watch football? It's funny.

Because there's no way you can be that clueless ("anyone can play consistently great playing for that Barcelona team") and due to complete lack of information about who played for Argentina in which tournament, which are not a matter of opinion, but flat out false claims.

You accused DF of being Trumpian on another thread,

Ummm mate, are you OK? I didn't accuse him of being a Trumpian. Jesus Christ. It was a metaphor because he's literally making up facts as if he's Donald Trump (ie putting words in my mouth about how I said Roger played at his best in the Wimbledon final). On moral grounds, I would legit never ever accuse anyone of being Trumpian unless I have evidence, as this would imply they're a clueless, racist piece of shit.

I think that's what you're trying to do here. Gaslight the audience into a false reality.

LOL @ "audience." There are like 3 people on this thread.

Defending was tougher in those days, defenders could get away with things then that wouldn't be permitted now. Surely you see that? One of my charges against Messi is the fact that his physical frailties are protected not only because he plays in one of the least physical leagues - many of the fouls given against him would be waved off in England and Germany for example - he wouldn't translate as well. Now don't get excited, I think if he played in a top team in the UK he would have his fun, but probably less so than in Spain. That's just a fact. My larger point is that what the likes of Maradona and Pele had to face from defenders and let me add George Best into the mix, would take a huge piece of Messi's effectiveness away. Yet you want to compare what he's been able to do playing for one of the greatest club teams of all time with what they went through. It's so one sided it's laughable.

But in any case, just look at what you've written. I've bolded it for you. You're not actually disagreeing with my point. In this day an age the skew is towards attacking play. Messi is thriving in an environment that didn't exist for the likes of Maradona and Pele. Yet they got theirs at International level. Messi hasn't

Oh my god, you're literally claiming that Pele was facing tougher defender in the 60's when it's a fact that they were A) worse athletes, B) less tactically disciplined, C) coaching, training methods, tactical awareness, etc... were not at all comparable to today, and most importantly, for the umpteenth time, EVERYTHING WAS MORE FAVORED TOWARDS ATTACKERS. Brazil won the 1970 World Cup deploying a 4-2-4 formation. Pele played the bulk of his career in the fucking Brazilian league, and the average for goals per game at that time was way way way way way more than it is today. I'm honestly baffled...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Thought that was what you were saying. My response to you is that European football historically has had cycles of dominance where different leagues have sucked in the best players in the world. We've seen periods where it was English clubs, Italian clubs, Spanish etc. Spain has been having it's day. It's a good thing. There's no question that the premier league has not been in the ascendancy for quite some time. The fact that Spain has been doing well right now is known. That's Spain. See what I did there? Not Messi. Spain. And you have corroborated it by mentioning the success of Atletico and Sevilla. By the way the Vincente Calderon is a much more fun stadium to go to than Santiago Bernabeu. You seem to want to attribute Spanish success to Messi. Last I recall it wasn't Messi who was winning world cups and European Cups but Spain which goes to my point

Buddy, you've missed the point completely.

Spanish clubs have been dominating, therefore, Messi doing what he is doing at the height of the Spanish league's power, against the same Spanish teams which have been dominating, cannot be downplayed to "oh other players have done it in more balanced leagues."

 

[Federberg]

Buddy, you've missed the point completely.

Spanish clubs have been dominating, therefore, Messi doing what he is doing at the height of the Spanish league's power, against the same Spanish teams which have been dominating, cannot be downplayed to "oh other players have done it in more balanced leagues."

Sigh... I'm not missing the point. You are...

Not Messi. The team that Messi is playing. The only platform where he's had great success, where he's been enabled to show his best. He's been playing in an era where Spain has dominated. And he's had the good fortune to play with the best Spanish players. Those same Spanish players who have shown their quality at the international level. I would love to have seen what Diego would have done with the opportunities afforded to Messi. Lol! He would probably have blown it with off the field antics, but you know what I mean..

 

[brokenshoelace]

I remember in '98, the excitement all around France about Ronaldo. In France! He was the player of that tournament. France stumbled their way into that final and Zidane shone in what has to be one of the more bizarre finals, but before that day the talk was all about what Ronaldo was doing. My point is that the great ones normally shine, Messi hasn't. You can make any excuse you want but them's the facts

I'm glad you mentioned this and this because this proves my point about how people are swayed by results to judge individual players in a team sport.

In 1998, Zidane played in the opener for France, which they won but his performance was whatever. In the second game, against Saudi Arabia, Zidane received a red card for stomping on a Saudi player. He also received a further 2-match ban, missing the last game of the group stage, and France's second round match-up with Paraguay, which they won 1-0 after extra time due to a Laurent Blanc golden goal (I hated that rule). He returned in the quarter finals against Italy, which was a boring 0-0 draw that ended on penalties. It's funny, Roberto Baggio missed the following chance in extra time, which would have been a golden goal and would have changed football history (that's my point about judging player's legacies in a team game based on results, they have so little control over things. If Baggio scores this, which Zidane had zero say in, Zidane crashes out of the QF in the World Cup, at home, after missing 3 games due to a moment of madness, and he's let his nation down).



See what I mean about the margins? And this isn't tennis, where despite low margins, players are still in control...

So anyway, France qualify on penalties, and they face Croatia. They're down 1-0 (to fucking Croatia) and in the second half, Lillian Thuram (a wonderful defender) scores the only two goals for the national team (Zidane had nothing to do with either) to bail them out. Then of course, Zidane did what he did in the final.

Now, Zidane is one of the best players I've ever seen and aesthetically speaking, probably my favorite to watch. But see how results sway perception? People think he actually had a great 1998 WC when in truth, he was atrocious until the final. Messi had a better 2014 WC, dragged his team to the final, but he didn't have a Thuram to bail him out (going back to the guy's point in the post quoted above), hell, even his strikers let him down. Higuain's miss is this bad, in case you don't remember:



Here is Rodrigo Palacio missing this in extra time:



See while I'm an apologetic Messi apologist, I actually think the point I'm making makes sense and is hardly some elaborate excuse making scheme. Really, this shouldn't even be controversial or anything. Judging individual players by collective accomplishments alone shouldn't be absolute, and we should be perfectly capable of analyzing situations on a case-by-case basis rather than just throw around weird criteria such as "if you didn't win the World Cup you can't be the best."

Also, going back to Zidane, he had a much better World Cup in 2006, and carried France to the final, yet let them down in a moment of madness that somehow doesn't weigh heavily on his legacy and everybody praises him for dragging France to the final. Yet Messi, who wasn't so stupid as to fucking headbutt somebody in the final and let his whole country down, is somehow buried for the 2014 World Cup.

One last point re: Messi's failures. With every other player, people remember the highs. That's why everyone brings up Zidane's 1998 WC win, and not France's embarrassing first round exit in 2002 as defending champions without scoring a single goal (and obviously not winning a match), in a line-up that boasted Zidane, Pires, Deschamps, Vieira, Henry, Trezeguet, etc...that's why nobody brings up Zidane's red card in 2006. Now Messi, playing on a terrible team (a team that lost 6-1 to Spain without him 2 months ago), with zero talent beyond attackers (see my post above about that), is getting massacred for a potential first round exit when this happened to other players in far better line-ups. Note that Messi is 31, has slowed down considerably, and the only reason is still held to such ridiculous standards is he's managed to evolve into a playmaker who still scores a lot of goals, so people assume he's still the same player. It would have been better for him if he just faded away like most players in their 30's.

 

[Federberg]

Because there's no way you can be that clueless ("anyone can play consistently great playing for that Barcelona team") and due to complete lack of information about who played for Argentina in which tournament, which are not a matter of opinion, but flat out false claims.




Ummm mate, are you OK? I didn't accuse him of being a Trumpian. Jesus Christ. It was a metaphor because he's literally making up facts as if he's Donald Trump (ie putting words in my mouth about how I said Roger played at his best in the Wimbledon final). On moral grounds, I would legit never ever accuse anyone of being Trumpian unless I have evidence, as this would imply they're a clueless, racist piece of shit.




LOL @ "audience." There are like 3 people on this thread.



Oh my god, you're literally claiming that Pele was facing tougher defender in the 60's when it's a fact that they were A) worse athletes, B) less tactically disciplined, C) coaching, training methods, tactical awareness, etc... were not at all comparable to today, and most importantly, for the umpteenth time, EVERYTHING WAS MORE FAVORED TOWARDS ATTACKERS. Brazil won the 1970 World Cup deploying a 4-2-4 formation. Pele played the bulk of his career in the fucking Brazilian league, and the average for goals per game at that time was way way way way way more than it is today. I'm honestly baffled...

did you see what Hungary (or was it Sweden) did to him in 1960?

As for that Argentina team in 2014, sigh... so basically you're saying that I should ignore the fact that he had the core of the Spanish World Cup winning team in his Barcelona side. That had nothing to do with his success? How can you in the same breathe make so many excuses for his national team?

 

[brokenshoelace]

Sigh... I'm not missing the point. You are...

Not Messi. The team that Messi is playing. The only platform where he's had great success, where he's been enabled to show his best. He's been playing in an era where Spain has dominated. And he's had the good fortune to play with the best Spanish players. Those same Spanish players who have shown their quality at the international level. I would love to have seen what Diego would have done with the opportunities afforded to Messi. Lol! He would probably have blown it with off the field antics, but you know what I mean..

Buddy, what success has Spain had in the 2014 WC and 2016 European Championships? None, and that's because their golden generation si gone. Alonso and Xavi are gone. Puyol is gone. Villa is gone. Busquets remains and Iniesta is old. Yet, Messi still won the Champions League in 2015 (with only old Iniesta and Busquets from that generation, and yes he had Neymar and Suarez but we won't debate who had a bigger impact and who was the heart of the team especially in a relatively sub-par midfield that didn't dominate the way they used to), and won La Liga almost every year since.

This is why I assume you don't pay close attention to football, because you're stuck on out-dated narrative and don't seem to be too aware of the changes in Messi's teams.

 

[Federberg]

I'm glad you mentioned this and this because this proves my point about how people are swayed by results to judge individual players in a team sport.

In 1998, Zidane played in the opener for France, which they won but his performance was whatever. In the second game, against Saudi Arabia, Zidane received a red card for stomping on a Saudi player. He also received a further 2-match ban, missing the last game of the group stage, and France's second round match-up with Paraguay, which they won 1-0 after extra time due to a Laurent Blanc golden goal (I hated that rule). He returned in the quarter finals against Italy, which was a boring 0-0 draw that ended on penalties. It's funny, Roberto Baggio missed the following chance in extra time, which would have been a golden goal and would have changed football history (that's my point about judging player's legacies in a team game based on results, they have so little control over things. If Baggio scores this, which Zidane had zero say in, Zidane crashes out of the QF in the World Cup, at home, after missing 3 games due to a moment of madness, and he's let his nation down).



See what I mean about the margins? And this isn't tennis, where despite low margins, players are still in control...

So anyway, France qualify on penalties, and they face Croatia. They're down 1-0 (to fucking Croatia) and in the second half, Lillian Thuram (a wonderful defender) scores the only two goals for the national team (Zidane had nothing to do with either) to bail them out. Then of course, Zidane did what he did in the final.

Now, Zidane is one of the best players I've ever seen and aesthetically speaking, probably my favorite to watch. But see how results sway perception? People think he actually had a great 1998 WC when in truth, he was atrocious until the final. Messi had a better 2014 WC, dragged his team to the final, but he didn't have a Thuram to bail him out (going back to the guy's point in the post quoted above), hell, even his strikers let him down. Higuain's miss is this bad, in case you don't remember:



Here is Rodrigo Palacio missing this in extra time:



See while I'm an apologetic Messi apologist, I actually think the point I'm making makes sense and is hardly some elaborate excuse making scheme. Really, this shouldn't even be controversial or anything. Judging individual players by collective accomplishments alone shouldn't be absolute, and we should be perfectly capable of analyzing situations on a case-by-case basis rather than just throw around weird criteria such as "if you didn't win the World Cup you can't be the best."

Also, going back to Zidane, he had a much better World Cup in 2006, and carried France to the final, yet let them down in a moment of madness that somehow doesn't weigh heavily on his legacy and everybody praises him for dragging France to the final. Yet Messi, who wasn't so stupid as to fucking headbutt somebody in the final and let his whole country down, is somehow buried for the 2014 World Cup.

One last point re: Messi's failures. With every other player, people remember the highs. That's why everyone brings up Zidane's 1998 WC win, and not France's embarrassing first round exit in 2002 as defending champions without scoring a single goal (and obviously not winning a match), in a line-up that boasted Zidane, Pires, Deschamps, Vieira, Henry, Trezeguet, etc...that's why nobody brings up Zidane's red card in 2006. Now Messi, playing on a terrible team (a team that lost 6-1 to Spain without him 2 months ago), with zero talent beyond attackers (see my post above about that), is getting massacred for a potential first round exit when this happened to other players in far better line-ups. Note that Messi is 31, has slowed down considerably, and the only reason is still held to such ridiculous standards is he's managed to evolve into a playmaker who still scores a lot of goals, so people assume he's still the same player. It would have been better for him if he just faded away like most players in their 30's.

It almost seems like you're saying that we should ignore performance for your country because the margins are so slim. Somehow the greats have managed to show themselves on that stage. What makes me laugh is that you're so intent on making excuses for Messi at the international level but somehow everything Barcelona (Barcelona! Not Messi) has done is down to Messi? Come on man...