Will Novak pass Rafa?

El Dude

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No mention of Olympics of course, I wonder why since all Big 3 have put it up there with the slams... Surely it merits at the minimum a mention in the secondary category. Maybe you will add it if Djokovic and Federer win it. :rolleyes:

The weeks at number one is nowhere near close the slam record get over it. The only reason why some people are now hyping it up is because it’s obvious that Nadal will end up with the slam record so Federer and Djokovic fans have to fall back on something else. It’s important but nowhere near the slams, not even close. :rolleyes:

Oh, shut up. I've talked about weeks at #1 being important for years. Not at all interested in playing your childish shit-flinging games.

Olympic gold is a nice record, but one shared by few all-time greats. I see it more as a nice add-on than a criteria for GOATness (or greatness).
 
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Nadalfan2013

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Oh, shut up. I've talked about weeks at #1 being important for years. Not at all interested in playing your childish shit-flinging games.

Olympic gold is a nice record, but one shared by few all-time greats. I see it more as a nice add-on than a criteria for GOATness (or greatness).

Oh please people still talk about the Steffi Graf’s “Golden” Grand Slam and it was all the way back in the 80s so surely we can talk about it when comparing Nadal Djokovic and Federer since they all tried to win it?

As for weeks at number one I didn’t say it wasn’t important but it’s nowhere near close the slam titles, those are far above everything so please don’t put them in the same category all right? Someone can have 5000 weeks at number one but if they didn’t win a slam they are seen as a failure and undeserving. The 2 stats are not even close.
 

Nadalfan2013

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If you want to dismiss the Olympics why not also the AO since it wasn’t big in the past as tons of players like Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Navratilova, Evert, etc. skipped it often! So maybe we should eliminate it in GOAT debates? If they knew that it would eventually become important then they most likely would have played it more often back then so why should they be disadvantaged?

What about Masters 1000 or YE#1 which weren’t a thing in the past? What about hardcourt which is fairly a new surface in Tennis history should we eliminate it? You can’t pick and choose what you want to eliminate.

The bottom line is everyone knows around here why you put the weeks at number one so highly and why you didn’t mention the Olympics so stop thinking that we are stupid. You are so pathetic and scared that Nadal will end up as GOAT so you always try to twist things. And I’m including Bonaca and Cali in this, obviously they are much worse.
 
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El Dude

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Oh please people still talk about the Steffi Graf’s “Golden” Grand Slam and it was all the way back in the 80s so surely we can talk about it when comparing Nadal Djokovic and Federer since they all tried to win it?

As for weeks at number one I didn’t say it wasn’t important but it’s nowhere near close the slam titles, those are far above everything so please don’t put them in the same category all right? Someone can have 5000 weeks at number one but if they didn’t win a slam they are seen as a failure and undeserving. The 2 stats are not even close.

Sure, talk about it all you want. I just don't think its all that important, but a nice add-on.

"Nowhere near close" is hyperbolic. Slam titles is the sexy stat and the place to start, but then you look at rankings, which give a better gauge of overall dominance. It is obvious that you under-sell it because Rafa doesn't look as good, which is one of the reasons you're hard to take seriously - you don't even try to be objective and only want to play the game of "My dad is stronger than your dad." That's a child's game.
 

El Dude

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If you want to dismiss the Olympics why not also the AO since it wasn’t big in the past as tons of players like Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Navratilova, Evert, etc. skipped it often! So maybe we should eliminate it in GOAT debates? If they knew that it would eventually become important then they most likely would have played it back then so why should they be disadvantaged? What about Masters 1000 or YE#1 which weren’t a thing in the past? You can’t pick and choose what you want to eliminate.

You're hopeless. At least try to be objective and hold an intelligent conversation.
 

Nadalfan2013

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Obviously you don’t watch Tennis because that’s what experts and people talk about the slam race, the weeks at number one is nowhere near close in terms of importance it has nothing to do with me. I brought up very intelligent points about the Olympics vs other stats that are not “all-time” but you don’t have an intelligent answer.

We’ve been talking on all these forums over and over and over about the slam race and how it is BY FAR the most important thing, but now all of a sudden because Nadal is in a good place you guys are trying to change things it’s so pathetic and desperate. :lol6:
 

El Dude

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Obviously you don’t watch Tennis because that’s what experts and people talk about the slam race, the weeks at number one is nowhere near close in terms of importance it has nothing to do with me. I brought up very intelligent points about the Olympics vs other stats that are not “all-time” but you don’t have an intelligent answer.

We’ve been talking on all these forums over and over and over about the slam race and how it is BY FAR the most important thing, but now all of a sudden because Nadal is in a good place you guys are trying to change things it’s so pathetic and desperate. :lol6:

One of my favorite Mark Twain quotes: "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

But seriously, I would be wasting my time trying to have a serious discussion with you. I am fairly certain that you aren't at all interested in trying to actually address such questions about greatness and such with any degree of seriousness, only propping up Nadal and trying to prove why he is the Bestest Ever. Same old story. To be frank, I find fanboyism boring. I'd rather actually discuss and analyze tennis, not whose daddy has a bigger wiener.
 
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the AntiPusher

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With 20 Slams in the books (and counting), Rafa still has two significant problems to being crowned for GOAT: 100+ fewer weeks at #1 than Roger and Novak, and no YEC. The latter is forgivable if he surpasses the other two in Slam count by at least 2-3 and accrues another 50+ weeks at #1. But as much as Slam titles are the sexy (and most important) marker of greatness, weeks at #1 aren't far behind - they measure overall dominance in a way that Slam titles don't fully account for. YECs matter, too, but aren't deal-breakers.

Novak's only problem is Slam count. Given the overall strength of his resume, especially considering that he's a lock to surpass Roger in weeks at #1 and may end up with 350 or more, I think all he really needs to do is equal the leader to earn the crown.

Roger will likely never be considered lone GOAT again, unless he wins another Slam and does so in glorious fashion - say, beating one of the other two en route. But he'd also need the other guys to slow down, like immediately.

Barring any of the above happening, it will likely always be debatable. Chances are Rafa isn't going to get the necessary weeks and YEC, and Novak probably won't surpass the other two in Slam titles, so there will be Fedal champions who will use that against him. Even if Roger somehow manages to win another one, he'd need the other guys to stop winning Slams soon, and that doesn't seem likely.

So we could imagine a scenario where Rafa finishes with 22-23 Slams, ~100 titles, and fewer than 250 weeks at #1, and no YECs. Novak finishes with 20-21 Slams, ~100 titles, and 350 weeks. Roger finishes with 20 Slams, 110 titles, and 310 weeks. Even factoring in head-to-heads, peer dominance, and other factors, it isn't a clear call. Their final resumes are likely going to be close, and as long as it is close there's going to be disagreement.
Since YEC is a bit watered down title and not a true season ending title that has a lot of status..e.g. Tsitipus and Zverev are the past two champions.
 
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tented

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Roger will likely never be considered lone GOAT again, unless he wins another Slam and does so in glorious fashion - say, beating one of the other two en route. But he'd also need the other guys to slow down, like immediately.

And we just permanently lost @DarthFed ... ;)
 

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I imagine he was rather well-endowed. But what about Ivo? God only knows.
618170C3-0253-483F-BD4B-553B35E092D1.gif
 
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rafanoy1992

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A Rafa-Novak final would be grand. Unlike 2015, Rafa is in good enough form that a Novak victory would be well-earned, and Novak is in good enough form that Rafa would actually be challenged by him. It would also be the most important slam for Novak to win to pass Rafa, as not only would he be adding to his tally, but he would be taking away a win from Rafa.

That said, I think it is a foregone conclusion that Rafa passes Roger, and Novak passes Rafa. It is the way of things: records are broken. I just think that Rafa really wants to pass Roger and will do what it takes to stay fit enough to do so, and likewise with Novak. So we'll probably end with:

Novak 22
Rafa 21
Roger 20

Steering back this thread to the original purpose. El Dude actually had the closest prediction so far (this post was made around Feb 2020). The only thing now is can Djokovic win 5 more slams after the age of 33.5 years old? Looking at his body language throughout 2020, he can do it but man it will be really really tough task to accomplish. But, hey if he does accomplish it, he will earned it for sure.

Now, here's my predictions of the final tally between the Big Three:

Most likely outcome (my opinion only):

Nadal - 22
Djokovic - 20 or 21
Federer - 20

Here's my other prediction:

Nadal - 21
Federer - 21
Djokovic - 20
 
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Bonaca

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Just thought how lucky can one guy be.

Not able to reach AO F 20.
Wimbledon cancelled, good opportunity for Novak gone.
USOpen title stolen from Novak, and many idiots out there still arguing Novak would have lost to Busta or Diva. At least Moxie was honest enough to admit Novak would have most likely won.

And the biggest idiot of all wrote Novak is the biggest beneficiary of these crazy circumstances.
How stupid can one racist be?


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Kieran

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Just thought how lucky can one guy be.

Not able to reach AO F 20.
Wimbledon cancelled, good opportunity for Novak gone.
USOpen title stolen from Novak, and many idiots out there still arguing Novak would have lost to Busta or Diva. At least Moxie was honest enough to admit Novak would have most likely won.

And the biggest idiot of all wrote Novak is the biggest beneficiary of these crazy circumstances.
How stupid can one racist be?


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Novak blew it, son. Blew it big time. Rafa was absent, and Novak had a bunch of gormless rookies, but his greed overwhelmed him, he was desperate to win the USO and French, and he bashed a ball into a poor lineswoman's windpipe, deservedly got banned, then arrived at the FO with his coach loudly writing cheques that Novak couldn't cash. I sense a little desperation in the Serb, a not untypical neediness. Saw it in the Astrial tour (or whatever the heck it was called), and saw it in New York. I don't blame him for the Astral Plane thingy because he apparently followed the Croatian covid rules, and he was trying to do something good, in his usual needy fashion, but - he played 3 slams this year, won 1.

Rafa played 2, won 1.

Rafa always seems to have a better ratio on these things than the other two... :unsure:
 

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Novak blew it, son. Blew it big time. Rafa was absent, and Novak had a bunch of gormless rookies, but his greed overwhelmed him, he was desperate to win the USO and French, and he bashed a ball into a poor lineswoman's windpipe, deservedly got banned, then arrived at the FO with his coach loudly writing cheques that Novak couldn't cash. I sense a little desperation in the Serb, a not untypical neediness. Saw it in the Astrial tour (or whatever the heck it was called), and saw it in New York. I don't blame him for the Astral Plane thingy because he apparently followed the Croatian covid rules, and he was trying to do something good, in his usual needy fashion, but - he played 3 slams this year, won 1.

Rafa played 2, won 1.

Rafa always seems to have a better ratio on these things than the other two... :unsure:

Always matters from which side you look at things oldie.
From bobo side it is unbelievable luck.


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All this talk of GOAT debates, one thing to keep in mind that every generation/era had different measures of excellence and dominance.

Even up to the Borg/Connors era nobody talked about the pursuit of the Most Majors, if that was the case, everybody would have played all 4 Majors, and the reality is other tournaments were considered far more prestigious than the AO. Borg and Connors rarely played the AO. Add that there were competing pro circuits back in the early days of Open tennis, even up to the days of Johnny Mac and Lendl you had ITF (?) and the WCT tours, so that there wasn't one standardized tour for the top pros. Rosewall and Laver, while admittedly older, had to skip even Wimbledon a couple of years due to their Pro tour commitments and then there was 1973 when most of the top players boycotted Wimbledon. When I was young, the WCT YE champ title was a huge deal, eclipsing the AO as far as I can remember. WCT title doesn't even exist anymore. Add 4 or 5 years of World Team Tennis in the mid to late 70's which prompted many players from entering the French Open (even undefeated in clay Chrissie Evert!)

To muddy the waters even more, Roy Emerson held the record with 12 career Majors. His Majors were won when the Pros were barred from playing them, and 10 of them were after Rod Laver, as an amateur, had achieved the Calendar Year Grand Slam in 1962 (defeating Emerson in 3 of those finals) turned pro. Unlike Laver who won the Grand Slam again as a pro in the Open Era in 1969, Emerson never won another Major after the Open era.

So rightly or wrongly the perception was never universally held that Roy Emerson was one of the all time greats. It seemed in his heyday talk was still of Pancho Gonzales, Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall, Lew Hoad, etc and before them, Bill Tilden, Don Budge. Of course we will never know because the Pros were banned from playing during the Salad years of Emerson's Major romp. He was the exception as most players like Laver made their mark by doing well in the Majors and then turned pro to make more money. As an "Amateur" Emerson carved out a pretty lucrative financial career, even turning down initial pro offers because he would have to take a paycut. LOL

Still Emerson, it's pretty impressive that he was 11-0 from 1963-67 of Majors Finals played. I mean, wow.

The person who made the public pursuit of Roy's 12 Majors was Pete Sampras. He more than anyone made it the holy grail of tennis. IT was the Sampra era that every top player regularly played all the Majors and was expected to and it became the ultimate standard. So when Pete finally surpassed Emerson's record many annointed him as the GOAT. Of course the irony was it was far from a consensus that Emerson was a GOAT contender when he held the record.

So now we have the Rafa, Federer, Novak era where the cumulation of Majors is the ultimate barometer of tennis greatness. Federer made no bones he wanted to catch Sampras. This has been the only era that all 3 top contenders have won Majors across all 4 tournaments, not to diminish it, but they've all had at least 60 opportunities to do that. Compare their Major appearances to all the players that came before them and it's jaw dropping the difference in Majors entered. Even Jimmy Connors who before them had the longest top level pro career with a 22 years played a total of 57. JImmy Connors was ranked #1 for 5 straight years from 1974-1978 and yet he missed 5 FO's and 3 AO's. Can you imagine a top player today skipping 8 Majors for non injury related reasons?

Of course you start throwing other criteria (understandably) into the mix and the adherents of the Big 3 will choose the criteria for the most part that favors their player.

So my point is while now Majors won seems paramount , it's a fairly new development in the long history of tennis.
 
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Fiero425

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All this talk of GOAT debates, one thing to keep in mind that every generation/era had different measures of excellence and dominance.

Even up to the Borg/Connors era nobody talked about the pursuit of the Most Majors, if that was the case, everybody would have played all 4 Majors, and the reality is other tournaments were considered far more prestigious than the AO. Borg and Connors rarely played the AO. Add that there were competing pro circuits back in the early days of Open tennis, even up to the days of Johnny Mac and Lendl you had ITF (?) and the WCT tours, so that there wasn't one standardized tour for the top pros. Rosewall and Laver, while admittedly older, had to skip even Wimbledon a couple of years due to their Pro tour commitments and then there was 1973 when most of the top players boycotted Wimbledon. When I was young, the WCT YE champ title was a huge deal, eclipsing the AO as far as I can remember. WCT title doesn't even exist anymore. Add 4 or 5 years of World Team Tennis in the mid to late 70's which prompted many players from entering the French Open (even undefeated in clay Chrissie Evert!)

To muddy the waters even more, Roy Emerson held the record with 12 career Majors. His Majors were won when the Pros were barred from playing them, and 10 of them were after Rod Laver, as an amateur, had achieved the Calendar Year Grand Slam in 1962 (defeating Emerson in 3 of those finals) turned pro. Unlike Laver who won the Grand Slam again as a pro in the Open Era in 1969, Emerson never won another Major after the Open era.

So rightly or wrongly the perception was never universally held that Roy Emerson was one of the all time greats. It seemed in his heyday talk was still of Pancho Gonzales, Rod Laver, Ken Rosewall, Lew Hoad, etc and before them, Bill Tilden, Don Budge. Of course we will never know because the Pros were banned from playing during the Salad years of Emerson's Major romp. He was the exception as most players like Laver made their mark by doing well in the Majors and then turned pro to make more money. As an "Amateur" Emerson carved out a pretty lucrative financial career, even turning down initial pro offers because he would have to take a paycut. LOL

Still Emerson, it's pretty impressive that he was 11-0 from 1963-67 of Majors Finals played. I mean, wow.

The person who made the public pursuit of Roy's 12 Majors was Pete Sampras. He more than anyone made it the holy grail of tennis. IT was the Sampra era that every top player regularly played all the Majors and was expected to and it became the ultimate standard. So when Pete finally surpassed Emerson's record many annointed him as the GOAT. Of course the irony was it was far from a consensus that Emerson was a GOAT contender when he held the record.

So now we have the Rafa, Federer, Novak era where the cumulation of Majors is the ultimate barometer of tennis greatness. Federer made no bones he wanted to catch Sampras. This has been the only era that all 3 top contenders have won Majors across all 4 tournaments, not to diminish it, but they've all had at least 60 opportunities to do that. Compare their Major appearances to all the players that came before them and it's jaw dropping the difference in Majors entered. Even Jimmy Connors who before them had the longest top level pro career with a 22 years played a total of 57. JImmy Connors was ranked #1 for 5 straight years from 1974-1978 and yet he missed 5 FO's and 3 AO's. Can you imagine a top player today skipping 8 Majors for non injury related reasons?

Of course you start throwing other criteria (understandably) into the mix and the adherents of the Big 3 will choose the criteria for the most part that favors their player.

So my point is while now Majors won seems paramount , it's a fairly new development in the long history of tennis.

I agree! The WCT was more than huge with a history that matches any major if you're in the know! The WCT Championship in Dallas was HUGE, made even bigger with a push to start what we take for granted today; "advertising the event" beforehand and actually "televise" it live back in '72! It really helped that the finalists took it to the limit going 5 sets; Laver and Rosewall at the top of the game! Tennis just wasn't that big yet; the boom occurring a couple years later when Evert and Connors won big in '74! Tennis exploded with everyone wanting to play! That fueled the economy on its own with tennis-wear becoming "street-wear" everyone had to buy even if they didn't play the game! Private clubs were being built, people taking lessons, rackets and balls flying out the door of stores! TV ratings so high a few summers in the 70's, all 3 networks could be playing a tournament at the same time over the weekend! Back then, the B-Tour for the men who competed on clay, the Grand Prix finals were played on Monday nights over the summer and shown on PBS IIRC! Those were the days! :partying-face:
 
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Nadalfan2013

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#1: Rafael Nadal: 20 slams + Gold medal + 10-6 & 10-4 in slams vs Fedovic

#2: Roger Federer: 20 slams + Silver medal + 4-10 & 6-11 in slams vs Nadovic

#3: Novak Djokovic: 17 slams + Bronze medal + 11-6 & 6-10 in slams vs Fedal