What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[calitennis127]

And then Dr. David Samadi here, showing that contrary to Moxie’s silly claims Sweden is doing better than the rest of Europe. All that lockdowns do is slow the process of herd immunity that will have to take place eventually:

 

[calitennis127]

Lol....so you are absolutely, positively, 100% sure that there is nothing genuine in those remarks? Why are you so sure of that? You should consider the possibility that someone could grant Trump's handling of this crisis a compliment and mean it. Also, I find it funny that you think Trump has the kind of leverage you are suggesting he does, where he can just deny assistance to a state because he is personally mad at someone for saying something about him. There is simply no way that he could do that in this situation. Even if he is politically at odds with a certain governor, he is in no position politically to just say "no, I'm not sending you supplies because I'm mad at you." He can get off the phone and curse about someone, but he is not in a position PR-wise where he can play the kind of emotional games that you have in mind.

Finally, your repeated contention that Trump's ego is "fragile" is a cliche among Democrats but I don't see it the same way at all. For one thing, Trump endured the most vicious and widespread media assault on a presidential candidate in American history, and he managed to prevail in the end over a political dynasty candidate who was heavily favored and had a massive political machine behind her. You don't do something like that and be mentally weak. If Trump was as easily shaken as you suggest, he would have stopped running in the Republican primary when the Republican establishment savaged him, let alone the general election when establishment Republicans and Democrats came together with the media to try to stop him from getting elected.

Furthermore, as president, Trump has endured non-stop investigative harassment from the Democrats and their allies in the FBI and DOJ. A mentally fragile wimp would not have been able to endure this kind of police state harassment while also fulfilling the basic duties of being president.

The reality is that you simply do not like Trump's style of communicating (which, again, is your prerogative), but you should not extrapolate from that that he is an "insecure" or "fragile" wimp. In fact, his style of attacking and bluffing is - ironically enough - very similar to what rappers do, as 50 Cent told Larry King in an interview. Do you think rappers have "fragile" egos? I doubt it.

April post ignored by Moxie here. In the past two weeks, 50 Cent has given a semi-endorsement to Trump and just now Lil Wayne endorsed him. Yes, I knew what I was talking about when I referenced 50 Cent's interview with Larry King:

 

[Moxie]

I don't know the stats in America, but largely this virus is killing and badly affecting those with underlying issues, and of course, the elderly. And among the elderly, the death rates aren't humongous among those who actually catch the virus. We always have this question about the role of Covid in deaths - my own dad was in a nursing home until he passed away in December 2018. Had he caught Covid and died he'd have been classified as having died from a "Covid related death", but really, Covid would have had little or nothing to do with it. A car backfiring in the car park might have affected him as badly, unfortunately. He was 83, and of course though this was a personal tragedy for us, we knew he wasn't taken from us too early.

This is something that Britbox and I have been discussing since the beginning: how do we classify these deaths? Not every country uses the same measure. If we leave off the politics of it, I still think it will take a long time to make an accurate accounting, and even then, I don't think we'll get one. Decisions were made on the fly as to how to judge cause of death, and I doubt there will ever be enough paperwork to sort it out, worldwide, or even country by country. I take your point about your dad, and obviously that's not an easy thing to say. I have a friend who's mother, 97, was living well and at home, but went into hospital for a minor condition, in March, in England, got COVID and died of it. Yes, she was 97, but she'd been fine. She died of COVID. Another case that is interesting, and won't ever be listed is COVID, is another friend's brother. He was hale and happy, though he'd had cancer some 20 years prior. This was late January in Los Angeles...well before we knew it would have been in the US. He got a sudden, virulent, pneumonia. He died within a few days. In retrospect, the doctors believe it was COVID, but it will never be counted as such.

A point worth making is that, when a virus emerges it can be incredibly deadly, as was the one that first came to the US. But that's not useful for a virus, if it wants to survive. If it kills off its hosts too quickly, it will die out before it spreads. So it mutates into a less virulent form. People get less sick, and spread it more effectively. This is what masks and lockdowns are about, because it still kills people, but meanders around better.

But Covid is a decisive factor in many deaths among the elderly, but this is unavoidable, even though it's unfortunate. I know also that underlying issues are largely helping Covid's cause. Obesity, diabetes, poor diet, smoking etc, and if I maybe indelicate for a moment, in American some of these are as much an epidemic as Covid.

It's not indelicate to say that, but I will point out that obesity, poor diet, diabetes are the diseases generally of the poor. Smoking, too, but that's more Europe's problem. If you're poor, it's cheap to eat at McDonald's. Lovely organic and fresh food is expensive. So easy to be thin and eat well when you have money. That is still a tragedy in my country.

In terms of the stat that "black and brown people, and those who are poor" are more affected, I don't know what the numbers are, but there maybe many reasons for this. In Ireland, the least affected area is a wealthy suburb of Dublin, and one reason might be that the people who live there have jobs where they work from home. They don't have to get on the bus or train, they don't have to run the social gamut of facing queues anywhere. They switch on the computer and go to work, in their study. Working class people are not able to avail of this. In fact, I know many people who work from home and I find they're the ones more anxious to see a lockdown, and I put it to them that it's very handy for them, they lose no income, they in fact gain by staying at home, whereas for others, the economy crashing has been catastrophic on so many levels.

You're absolutely right that it's nice for white collar workers, who tend to be white people, to be able to work from home, Zoom into meetings and stay safely ensconced. But some people only get paid if they show up and work: taxi/Uber drivers, delivery people, construction workers, (and obviously all of the hospital workers and first responders, but that includes the people that are guards and cleaning people at hospitals.) So who are most of those people that don't get to work from home? They're minorities and immigrants. Do they die in larger numbers because they have pre-existing conditions based on poverty levels? Yes. But is it also because they have to go to work, they have to get on public transportation? I can hear that you're sympathetic to this, but it is also why all of us need to be cautious, about masking and staying at home, when we can...because others don't have the option.

I get accused of being like Trump for saying this, but I dismiss this nonsense.

Other interesting things I'm considering lately is the initial surges in Italy and Spain, where as you know, the people are so tactile. I was in Italy 3 times this year, the first time at the end of February, the early stages of panic in the west, and I noticed how they still greeted each other with multiple kisses and hugs. My Roman friend was annoyed by this, she lives in Dublin now many years and she can't believe that they were still doing that then. They were still doing it in July. My sister lives in Madrid for 30 years and she says the same. Also, the Spanish have this strange policy of suppressing the immune system by insisting that people wear masks outdoors too, even in 40 degrees heat. That's strange, and I'd imagine counter-productive...

I don't think you're like Trump. I appreciate the view from outside of the US, when folks like you and @Federberg can see things with a different nuance.

As to Italy and Spain and your last, I do think cultural norms make a difference. Which is why I say the Swedes have been doing so well: they don't tend to go into each others' houses, and they obey the rules, even when only suggested. I don't know that wearing a mask "suppresses the immune system." Where'd you get that from?

 

[Moxie]

This is the Stanford scientist who the media are attacking for being anti-lockdown. Trump added him to the coronavirus task force, albeit too late. It would have been much better to follow his advice than Fauci’s from the start:

You may be surprised that I gave this a "like," but I'm not as doctrinaire as you like to think. I absolutely do think that between never seeing our aging grandparents, especially if they are not well, and protecting them to the point of dying alone is wrong.

I also agree that not sending kids to school to the point that it puts an unacceptable onus on their parents, in terms of dealing with their own work, and to the detriment of children's education and well-being, it definitely has to be worked out.

 

[calitennis127]

I have no idea why you need to make this conversation about white guy v woman of color.

Because it is highly ironic that the left demonizes old white males but has turned Fauci into a god, even though he personifies old white male privilege if anyone ever did, having been ensconced in a cushy government job for 50 years. Straight white males are bad, except when they are Democrats, in which case they are wonderful (almost always). Andrew Cuomo has become the heartthrob of Democratic-voting white suburban women in New York because of his rambling monologues about Italian family dinners, "PPE," and "fighting the virus" while Trump is president.

That said, I did once post a video of Bill Maher (who I generally loathe) and you immediately jumped to saying that I was quoting a straight white male to make my case, and that was somehow bad. So, to put it mildly, I find it funny that the Western media has turned Fauci into a heroic figure while Dr. Gupta in the UK is relegated to a much lower status on the totem pole simply because she isn't saying what the left wants her to.

I think they were having an interview, not a debate. Her opinion was the lead on it. She did actually say that she could see why there was a lockdown early, while we got a bead on what was going on. That's what everyone said was wise.

She said she didn't particularly favor that approach, although she could see why someone would advocate it back in March (even though she personally hadn't favored it in March). But now she clearly thinks the lockdowns are insane - and they are. Even if you want to say that there was a case to be made for them back in March, we now know with hindsight that they were a horrible and unnecessary mistake. And they should not be perpetuated.

I think we've all said that the thing to do, based on what we know, is to protect the most vulnerable and try to get back to life as much as we can, even before there is a vaccine. What is the conflict here, as you see it?

Are you serious? Listen to what Dr. Gupta says from the 6-minute mark onward. She directly advocates the approach of herd immunity leading to what she calls "endemic equilibrium." The idea of reaching herd immunity has been advocated by Dr. Atlas and every time he has suggested it the left-wing media have demonized him and attacked him. Fauci has also repeatedly voiced his opposition to that idea. What Gupta says about the lockdowns is that they don't create the solution; they simply delay it. When have you ever heard Fauci say that?

Dr. Gupta's recommendations stand in direct conflict with those of Fauci, the American Democratic Party, and the left in Western Europe. Her views would earn her the title of "science denier" by the Twitter armies in the United States.

 

[Kieran]

This is something that Britbox and I have been discussing since the beginning: how do we classify these deaths? Not every country uses the same measure. If we leave off the politics of it, I still think it will take a long time to make an accurate accounting, and even then, I don't think we'll get one. Decisions were made on the fly as to how to judge cause of death, and I doubt there will ever be enough paperwork to sort it out, worldwide, or even country by country. I take your point about your dad, and obviously that's not an easy thing to say. I have a friend who's mother, 97, was living well and at home, but went into hospital for a minor condition, in March, in England, got COVID and died of it. Yes, she was 97, but she'd been fine. She died of COVID. Another case that is interesting, and won't ever be listed is COVID, is another friend's brother. He was hale and happy, though he'd had cancer some 20 years prior. This was late January in Los Angeles...well before we knew it would have been in the US. He got a sudden, virulent, pneumonia. He died within a few days. In retrospect, the doctors believe it was COVID, but it will never be counted as such.

A point worth making is that, when a virus emerges it can be incredibly deadly, as was the one that first came to the US. But that's not useful for a virus, if it wants to survive. If it kills off its hosts too quickly, it will die out before it spreads. So it mutates into a less virulent form. People get less sick, and spread it more effectively. This is what masks and lockdowns are about, because it still kills people, but meanders around better.

It's not indelicate to say that, but I will point out that obesity, poor diet, diabetes are the diseases generally of the poor. Smoking, too, but that's more Europe's problem. If you're poor, it's cheap to eat at McDonald's. Lovely organic and fresh food is expensive. So easy to be thin and eat well when you have money. That is still a tragedy in my country.

You're absolutely right that it's nice for white collar workers, who tend to be white people, to be able to work from home, Zoom into meetings and stay safely ensconced. But some people only get paid if they show up and work: taxi/Uber drivers, delivery people, construction workers, (and obviously all of the hospital workers and first responders, but that includes the people that are guards and cleaning people at hospitals.) So who are most of those people that don't get to work from home? They're minorities and immigrants. Do they die in larger numbers because they have pre-existing conditions based on poverty levels? Yes. But is it also because they have to go to work, they have to get on public transportation? I can hear that you're sympathetic to this, but it is also why all of us need to be cautious, about masking and staying at home, when we can...because others don't have the option.


I don't think you're like Trump. I appreciate the view from outside of the US, when folks like you and @Federberg can see things with a different nuance.

As to Italy and Spain and your last, I do think cultural norms make a difference. Which is why I say the Swedes have been doing so well: they don't tend to go into each others' houses, and they obey the rules, even when only suggested. I don't know that wearing a mask "suppresses the immune system." Where'd you get that from?

No, I say wearing a mask outdoors in 40 degrees heat would suppress your immune system. In Spain they must be struggling to breathe, being constantly muzzled. Wearing a mask indoors is something I can see the point of.

As for the 97 year old, her “underlying condition” was unfortunately her age. Had she been 27, she’d almost certainly be fine. But I agree, the cause of death was Covid, but at that age there’s a miserable inevitability encroaching. An ex girlfriend, her mother is 92, in a nursing home with dementia, caught Covid and her family couldn’t visit. She beat Covid, and is still among us. So even among the age group most likely to be badly affected, it’s not a given that they die.

I agree about how we measure stats. An interesting thing I saw on the news is that Sweden had a lower than normal death rate from flu in 2019, they just didn’t have it as bad, and so a lot of the elderly deaths they had this year may have - again, I’ll be indelicate but I hope you know I don’t mean to be insensitive - dodged a bullet last year.

As for people who are poorer, there is no solution to this. We can’t make everyone rich, but nor can all jobs be done from home. Everybody who must go out needs to take precautions. There are going to be huge difficulties for families in small apartments and as I say, this is why I wish in Ireland we had behavioural psychologists on our expert team, to advise on just how these lockdowns will play out. I don’t even think we have an epidemiologist on it. We just have the same person leading it who - during the cervical smear scandal where many women have unnecessarily died- told the government not to do an inquiry, he’d write up a report. And we have a political class that’s wholly and without exception bland, blind and careless.

It’s an interesting truth you mention, about how the virus will become less virulent just sheerly out of self interest. The missus has been saying similar and she feels it’s less potent now than the first wave. It makes sense, and it also makes it urgent that we listen to people like professor Gupta from Oxford, among many other experts, who say we need now to accept it, quit being in denial, and live with it..

 

[calitennis127]

As an addendum to Kieran’s discussion of old people at risk: the elderly are now dying in nursing homes from something other than Covid. These lockdowns are cruel to them:

 

[britbox]

Out of interest guys, imagine this scenario...

You're 80, 90+ years old and in a nursing home. Would you seriously want to be protected from seeing sons/daughters, grandchildren for your own health?

I certainly wouldn't. What sort of life are we giving these old folks when they can't even see family members? What do they have left? I'd rather hug one of my kids than serve a term of solitary confinement for the remainder of the days.

 

[Horsa]

Out of interest guys, imagine this scenario...

You're 80, 90+ years old and in a nursing home. Would you seriously want to be protected from seeing sons/daughters, grandchildren for your own health?

I certainly wouldn't. What sort of life are we giving these old folks when they can't even see family members? What do they have left? I'd rather hug one of my kids than serve a term of solitary confinement for the remainder of the days.

I agree. Unless I'd got dementia that bad I didn't understand what was going on around me most of the time anymore I'd want to see my family even if I couldn't hug them. (I'm hoping I never get like that as it's a very destructive illness. It takes you before you go because you're just not the same anymore. Your family don't really get the chance to say "Goodbye!". It's very distressing for everyone & hard to deal with especially as you get very argumentative & do dangerous things & accidentally drive your family away.)

They're having the same kind of existence everyone else is having at the moment but because sometimes people's abilities worsen as they age they can't do as much as everyone else. I'm not saying all of them will be able to do less than the rest of us. Some old people can do more than younger ones. Some are still as sharp as a tack & fit as a fiddle with all their senses more-or-less the same as it was when they were younger. though others aren't.

 

[tented]

Out of interest guys, imagine this scenario...

You're 80, 90+ years old and in a nursing home. Would you seriously want to be protected from seeing sons/daughters, grandchildren for your own health?

I certainly wouldn't. What sort of life are we giving these old folks when they can't even see family members? What do they have left? I'd rather hug one of my kids than serve a term of solitary confinement for the remainder of the days.

I suspect at least part of what the nursing homes are afraid of is getting sued, if visitors get sick. Perhaps have family members sign a waiver, not holding the nursing homes responsible?

The hug part is different, though, since it involves physical contact with someone with COVID. But if everyone wears a mask, stays a few feet apart, and visitors sign waivers, it should be OK, I think. This would be better than allowing zero interactions.

 

[britbox]

I suspect at least part of what the nursing homes are afraid of is getting sued, if visitors get sick. Perhaps have family members sign a waiver, not holding the nursing homes responsible?

The hug part is different, though, since it involves physical contact with someone with COVID. But if everyone wears a mask, stays a few feet apart, and visitors sign waivers, it should be OK, I think. This would be better than allowing zero interactions.

Possibly right on the first part. But that in itself is just way too American for me. Signing waivers to give your Mum a hug. Or in Mum's shoes, filling in forms to give your kids/grandkids a hug... something seriously wrong with society when we hit those buffers. If I was that age in a nursing home, with said rules, I'd be checking out.

 

[calitennis127]

Possibly right on the first part. But that in itself is just way too American for me. Signing waivers to give your Mum a hug. Or in Mum's shoes, filling in forms to give your kids/grandkids a hug... something seriously wrong with society when we hit those buffers. If I was that age in a nursing home, with said rules, I'd be checking out.

Tented is one of those Democratic Party sapheads who actually thinks that masks work, even though the CDC (a Democrat-run social activism organization) said itself in a recent study that 85% of Covid patients either always (71%) or often (14%) wore a mask.

The international mask-wearing movement is one of the dumbest moments in human history. This is almost like pre-Neanderthal level stupidity, although that may be an insult to the people around at that time. It is almost indescribable.

The main criminal organization in this whole Covid episode is the CDC, which should be defunded and eventually eliminated. It has influenced not just the U.S. but the whole world into thinking the virus is far more deadly than it is. And the CDC clearly is not devoted primarily to fighting infectious disease. It is essentially a wing of the Democratic Party focused on social activism more than disease, and the Covid hysteria has been a mass Democratic Party election operation where they took a rather benign disease and convinced all of humanity that it was a combination of the Black Plague and Spanish flu wrapped in one - all just to take out Trump. And they have lowered the bar so much for what qualifies as a Covid death that the 220,000 number is almost meaningless. It is not an accurate reporting of deaths from the Wuhan Nursing Home Virus.

This tells you all you need to know about how and why the CDC has deceived the USA and the world. It was all political from the start:

CDC employees made more than 8,000 political contributions since 2015. Only 5 went to Republican causes​

By
Curate RegWatch
-
July 17, 2020
https://regulatorwatch.com/reported_elsewhere/cdc-employees-made-more-than-8000-political-contributions-since-2015-only-5-went-to-republican-causes/

 

[britbox]

Interesting study on masks:

Horowitz: Danish newspaper reveals largest study on masks has been rejected by 3 medical journals

'The study and its size are unique in the world,' one study author told the paper

www.theblaze.com

It was a double blind "gold standard" medical review. They can't get the results published.

Wake up people...

 

[Horsa]

Interesting study on masks:

Horowitz: Danish newspaper reveals largest study on masks has been rejected by 3 medical journals

'The study and its size are unique in the world,' one study author told the paper

www.theblaze.com

It was a double blind "gold standard" medical review. They can't get the results published.

Wake up people...

I'm following the rules when out & about mainly for 2 reasons. These rules are enforceable by law & by wearing face coverings we're allowed more freedom. I want my freedom back A.S.A.P. but instead we're going to have it taken off us in our area. If I can get more freedom by wearing them I will. If we wear face coverings we're allowed to go in shopping centres & shops, get served in cafes & go on buses. If we don't wear face coverings we're only allowed to walk where no-one else will be & stay at home.

 

[Moxie]

No, I say wearing a mask outdoors in 40 degrees heat would suppress your immune system. In Spain they must be struggling to breathe, being constantly muzzled. Wearing a mask indoors is something I can see the point of.

Just because you think it might suppress the immune system doesn't make that a scientific assessment.

As for the 97 year old, her “underlying condition” was unfortunately her age. Had she been 27, she’d almost certainly be fine. But I agree, the cause of death was Covid, but at that age there’s a miserable inevitability encroaching. An ex girlfriend, her mother is 92, in a nursing home with dementia, caught Covid and her family couldn’t visit. She beat Covid, and is still among us. So even among the age group most likely to be badly affected, it’s not a given that they die.

This is where I think you are being insensitive. If my friend's mother hadn't gone into hospital at that specific moment, she well might be still at home making tea for herself, and getting along. I specifically mentioned her age to make the point that she did, actually, die of COVID. I'm not sure the point of your friend's mother who didn't die of it. Of course they don't all die, but if they die of COVID, and not natural causes, isn't this still an unfortunate death, even if they are old?

It’s an interesting truth you mention, about how the virus will become less virulent just sheerly out of self interest. The missus has been saying similar and she feels it’s less potent now than the first wave. It makes sense, and it also makes it urgent that we listen to people like professor Gupta from Oxford, among many other experts, who say we need now to accept it, quit being in denial, and live with it..

The question is how we learn to live with it. I think precautions still have to be taken, until there's a vaccine. Wear masks, physical distance, some businesses open, some limited, and all still observing some protocols. It's just sensible. And different protocols for different societies. But we can't all wake up tomorrow and pretend this isn't a thing.

 

[tented]

But that in itself is just way too American for me.

Lol, I felt that as I wrote it. But it is true.

 

[Moxie]

Possibly right on the first part. But that in itself is just way too American for me. Signing waivers to give your Mum a hug. Or in Mum's shoes, filling in forms to give your kids/grandkids a hug... something seriously wrong with society when we hit those buffers. If I was that age in a nursing home, with said rules, I'd be checking out.

As a person who is dealing with this in real time, I take your point about what is worth being cautious about, and where we should just let people see their loved ones. I'm here to tell you that there is some wiggle room, and I also agree that, if a person is in last stages of life, or demented, the kindest thing to do is to allow the family access. When your beloved relative is in late-stages of life, or in the sadness of dementia, who gives a f*%k if you give them COVID, as opposed to not seeing them, or holding them, or being with them when they die? This is one of the things that has changed from early stages. Between filming work, and elderly relatives, I have had cause to be in a lot of hospitals and nursing homes lately, or to at least be aware of their rules. The protocols vary wildly, but the effort is towards care and kindness, and is not nearly so draconian as it was in Mar-June.

 

[Kieran]

Just because you think it might suppress the immune system doesn't make that a scientific assessment.

Well, this is true, and we all should be on guard against reporting anecdotal stories as if they've been laboratory tested, but from what I'm hearing in Madrid, and not just from my sister but her sporty hunky sons, is that people wearing masks in 40 degrees heat outdoors is causing them problems because they're feeling choked up, removing the masks to gasp for air. This isn't just people of my sisters age but also young sporty bucks. This is not healthy if you're battling a respiratory virus. Wearing masks outdoors is not seen as being necessary in most places, and certainly not in such heat.

This is where I think you are being insensitive. If my friend's mother hadn't gone into hospital at that specific moment, she well might be still at home making tea for herself, and getting along. I specifically mentioned her age to make the point that she did, actually, die of COVID. I'm not sure the point of your friend's mother who didn't die of it. Of course they don't all die, but if they die of COVID, and not natural causes, isn't this still an unfortunate death, even if they are old?

Now, I apologise if you feel I was insensitive because as I said in the following paragraph, I wasn't saying these things to be indelicate or insensitive, and I'm very mindful of how our personal situations are, and how many friends and family are in this terrible situation - and it is terrible, and her death was of course unfortunate - I certainly didn't say it wasn't. I'm rooting for all our elderly that they'll be safe, I know so many people who have parents and grandparents in this exact age group and I wish them many more happy hears among their loved ones.

But this unfortunately is the science with regards to Covid - that "had she been 27, she’d almost certainly be fine." If we're to discuss this honestly on an open forum, we need to be able to say this, and I agree that that - as I said in my post - the cause of her death was Covid, but her age was a factor which left her more vulnerable to it. My point in mentioning my friends mother who survived it is the same point I made in a previous post, which is that even among the elderly, there is a good chance they'll survive an encounter with this terrible virus.

The question is how we learn to live with it. I think precautions still have to be taken, until there's a vaccine. Wear masks, physical distance, some businesses open, some limited, and all still observing some protocols. It's just sensible. And different protocols for different societies. But we can't all wake up tomorrow and pretend this isn't a thing.

I would hope there's nobody who thinks Covid isn't a thing, although we all know these people exist. We can't help them. How to live with it is the question - I think Dr. Gupta gave a reasonable example of how, and why we have to. We come to terms with its existence, the possibilities of catching it, how to avoid, who are more vulnerable, and we get on with things. We don't lockdown for flu, even though the mortality rates there are more staggering than most people knew before Covid. For the elderly and vulnerable, we do what they always tried to do in my dads nursing home, which was lockdowns every few weeks because some threatening bug or other was in the home, so we try cocoon the elderly and vulnerable more often, and the rest of society gets on with it, as we used to.

 

[Kieran]

I suspect at least part of what the nursing homes are afraid of is getting sued, if visitors get sick. Perhaps have family members sign a waiver, not holding the nursing homes responsible?

The hug part is different, though, since it involves physical contact with someone with COVID. But if everyone wears a mask, stays a few feet apart, and visitors sign waivers, it should be OK, I think. This would be better than allowing zero interactions.

Out of interest guys, imagine this scenario...

You're 80, 90+ years old and in a nursing home. Would you seriously want to be protected from seeing sons/daughters, grandchildren for your own health?

I certainly wouldn't. What sort of life are we giving these old folks when they can't even see family members? What do they have left? I'd rather hug one of my kids than serve a term of solitary confinement for the remainder of the days.

These are real time problems in nursing homes and made worse by Covid. As I said above, when my dad was in a home, lockdowns were regular because bugs were often getting in, viruses, flu etc, so we accepted lockdowns in the nursing home as a matter of fact. With Covid, it almost seems permanent, and we know the tragedy of young kids being able to glimpse granny through a window, but hugs are forbidden. Signing a waiver would actually be not too much of a hardship if it meant safe physical contact could be made, but yeah, it's another sign of the times. I can live with this one, though, if it meant seeing my old lad for an hour, making him smile, because for old folks in nursing homes, surrounded by staff wearing space suits, it's a very disconcerting and upsetting experience. Those suffering from dementia especially are getting worse without the routine of contact with their familiar faces....

 

[Federberg]

As a person who is dealing with this in real time, I take your point about what is worth being cautious about, and where we should just let people see their loved ones. I'm here to tell you that there is some wiggle room, and I also agree that, if a person is in last stages of life, or demented, the kindest thing to do is to allow the family access. When your beloved relative is in late-stages of life, or in the sadness of dementia, who gives a f*%k if you give them COVID, as opposed to not seeing them, or holding them, or being with them when they die? This is one of the things that has changed from early stages. Between filming work, and elderly relatives, I have had cause to be in a lot of hospitals and nursing homes lately, or to at least be aware of their rules. The protocols vary wildly, but the effort is towards care and kindness, and is not nearly so draconian as it was in Mar-June.

Following on from this, it's worth pointing out that the caution relating to care homes is because the research shows that most of the outbreaks were caused by workers coming in to the care homes. Take New York for example, the recent record is pretty good because care workers are being extensively tested. There are examples everywhere in the United States showing that where mask wearing is combined with the use of masks the spread of the virus is substantially reduced. What I don't get is why this successfully employed strategy is not consensus. Just look at Far Eastern countries that do this as a matter of course. It's truly bizarre. I was a huge supporter of lockdowns in March-April. But as I said then this was supposed to enable countries to build capacity to test, trace and isolate. Lockdowns with no strategy to ramp up capacity is just economic destruction with no plan as far as I'm concerned. It's insanity. I think with proper procedures we shouldn't have lockdowns anymore. Why is this so hard for some countries to implement? There are African countries with substantially less resources that seem to be on top of this. It's quite shocking what we're seeing around the world. It's inexcusable