What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83


Here is Moxie, a New York State Democrat, condemning Sweden for its approach when her state had the highest COVID death rate in the world under Governor Meatball. If you eliminated the Democrat-run states from the U.S., its death count would be negligible.

The three main reasons that the death count is so high in the Democrat-run states are a) total incompetence with the stupid lockdowns and nursing home policy, b) suppression of hydroxychloroquine, and c) dishonesty in reporting Covid death totals. The 225,000 number is a total fraud that the Democrat-run CDC has conjured up to get at Trump, especially in states where Democrats have control. Their calculation is that Trump as president will take more blame than the Democratic governors, even though Trump has no control over those governors’ policy.

Oh, and then there’s Italy.....here you go Moxie. The left-wing Daily Beast is raising questions about why Italy followed the Fauci approach and is still seeing a return in cases. Moxie and everyone else who agrees with the lockdowns - why don’t you just admit that you were totally wrong this whole time and the lockdowns were stupid? Even the left-wing Daily Beast is admitting now that the left was wrong.

Italy Did Everything Right to Stop a Second Wave of the Coronavirus. So What Went Wrong?​


UNSTOPPABLE

Barbie Latza Nadeau

Correspondent-At-Large
Updated Oct. 22, 2020 6:27PM ET Published Oct. 22, 2020 6:53AM ET


“What's particularly troubling about the return of COVID in Italy is that the country has done everything experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci have been advising. Face masks in public places have been compulsory for months, social distancing is strongly enforced, nightclubs have never reopened, and sporting arenas are at less than a third of capacity. Children who are back at school are regularly tested and strictly social-distanced, and yet, the second wave seems completely unstoppable.”


 
Last edited:

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
Here is Moxie, a New York State Democrat, condemning Sweden for its approach when her state had the highest COVID death rate in the world under Governor Meatball. If you eliminated the Democrat-run states from the U.S., its death count would be negligible.

The three main reasons that the death count is so high in the Democrat-run states are a) total incompetence with the stupid lockdowns and nursing home policy, b) suppression of hydroxychloroquine, and c) dishonesty in reporting Covid death totals. The 225,000 number is a total fraud that the Democrat-run CDC has conjured up to get at Trump, especially in states where Democrats have control. Their calculation is that Trump as president will take more blame than the Democratic governors, even though Trump has no control over those governors’ policy.

Oh, and then there’s Italy.....here you go Moxie. The left-wing Daily Beast is raising questions about why Italy followed the Fauci approach and is still seeing a return in cases. Moxie and everyone else who agrees with the lockdowns - why don’t you just admit that you were totally wrong this whole time and they were stupid? Even the left-wing Daily Beast is admitting now that the left was wrong.

Italy Did Everything Right to Stop a Second Wave of the Coronavirus. So What Went Wrong?​


UNSTOPPABLE

Barbie Latza Nadeau

Correspondent-At-Large
Updated Oct. 22, 2020 6:27PM ET Published Oct. 22, 2020 6:53AM ET


“What's particularly troubling about the return of COVID in Italy is that the country has done everything experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci have been advising. Face masks in public places have been compulsory for months, social distancing is strongly enforced, nightclubs have never reopened, and sporting arenas are at less than a third of capacity. Children who are back at school are regularly tested and strictly social-distanced, and yet, the second wave seems completely unstoppable.”



I was in Rome in July/August and Sicily in September and wearing masks outdoors wasn't compulsory. In fact, nobody wore them, which sounds wise, since the inability to breathe outdoors in 40 degrees heat might suppress immunity.

Ireland have gone into lockdown not because cases/deaths are out of control, or the hospitals are overrun, but because our government have changed tack: we tried to flatten the curve in March - now we decide to flatten the country.

We have clueless, cowardly politicians who are not thinking of the negative effects of lockdowns, but instead are listening to scientists who are projecting doom-laden scenarios. In Ireland, we wasted the summer, and now they're hoping this six week lockdown will end up with us all having a Very Merry Christmas, and a Lockdown New Year. They have no exit strategy and no clue as to how to marry their own words - "we have to learn to live with Covid" - to real life situations inflicted by them which will kill people in other ways. Domestic abuse went through the roof during the previous lockdown, child abuse, alcohol abuse, personal debt, job losses, a whole raft of crucial hospital appointments for people who had life threatening non-Covid conditions were missed, and we have nothing to show for it.

Just a curious stat - the average age of death in Ireland in 2019 was 82. The average age of Covid-related deaths is 83...
 
  • Like
Reactions: calitennis127

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
I think with Sweden, a large part of their economy is export based, so that would naturally suffer, regardless of whether or not they did as most other countries did. I'm open to correction on this, but I've read it from a few sources.

Sweden's goal from the beginning - rightly or wrongly - was to play the long game on Covid, based upon their experts views on the behaviour of viruses. They felt the virus has to run through the population but they could slow its spread through certain measures. They're not the same measures as everyone else (who also largely agree the virus is not going away so we best live with it), but if we see that their death rates now are going in the opposite direction to everyone else, it's probably insufficient of the bloke who wrote the article to write the final paragraph as he did, without adding another option, which is that maybe they're getting it right, after all?

We should always read "so far" in articles critiquing the virus response, because Covid is a long game, but also, we should learn about a regions population density, the proportion of its population which are in the Covid crosshairs, before we decide who did badly, who did better. Britain apparently has 20 times the number of people in the Covid peril zone than Ireland has, so obviously its death rate might reflect this. It's more densely populated, by many times. New Zealand gets a lot of kudos for how they handle it, but I think this is nonsense. They have a land mass almost 4 times the size of Ireland, with about 2/3 or 3/4 of the population of my beautiful green isle. There are also factors regarding how we measure Covid deaths. There are a lot of ways in which data can be viewed.

I'm not saying Sweden is right in this regard, but I think it's far too early for anyone to say. They haven't chosen this route willy-nilly, and as we still see experts flummoxed by the virus, they have a right to choose their own experts over other countries.


Kieran, I am really disappointed with you in this case. As a Roman Catholic, you should see things more clearly than this. You are being far too generous to the irrational and utterly wicked Covid advocates. They have no facts and no logic behind their approach. They are utter fools inflicting evil on mankind, particularly the poorest of the world. The main victims of the lockdowns will be the poorest people, especially in the Third World. If you are a great Catholic, as you claim, would you say that Christ would approve of government leaders causing massive hunger for the world’s poor in the name of fighting a disease less dangerous than the flu?

Why don’t you side with your fellow Irishman Dr. Martin Feeley, who says that the lockdowns are an absurdity and that Covid is actually less dangerous than the flu?



Draconian’ restrictions around Covid-19 condemned by HSE doctor​

Clinical director critical of media and public ‘obsession’ with daily case numbers​



Dr Martin Feeley says any assessment of Ireland’s strategy should take into account the cost to people’s quality of life. Photograph: Nick Bradshaw
Paul Cullen Health Editor
Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 00:50


 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
Kieran, I am really disappointed with you in this case. As a Roman Catholic, you should see things more clearly than this. You are being far too generous to the irrational and utterly wicked Covid advocates. They have no facts and no logic behind their approach. They are utter fools inflicting evil on mankind, particularly the poorest of the world. The main victims of the lockdowns will be the poorest people, especially in the Third World. If you are a great Catholic, as you claim, would you say that Christ would approve of government leaders causing massive hunger for the world’s poor in the name of fighting a disease less dangerous than the flu?

Why don’t you side with your fellow Irishman Dr. Martin Feeley, who says that the lockdowns are an absurdity and that Covid is actually less dangerous than the flu?



Draconian’ restrictions around Covid-19 condemned by HSE doctor​

Clinical director critical of media and public ‘obsession’ with daily case numbers​



Dr Martin Feeley says any assessment of Ireland’s strategy should take into account the cost to people’s quality of life. Photograph: Nick Bradshaw
Paul Cullen Health Editor
Sat, Sep 12, 2020, 00:50



You perhaps haven’t read my post just above this one, and I’m not clear that you read my post that you quoted. Read that one again, then read my post which is sandwiched between your two posts.

As for “if you are a great Catholic, as you claim,” I’ve actually always admitted I’m the opposite to being a great Catholic...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
You perhaps haven’t read my post just above this one, and I’m not clear that you read my post that you quoted. Read that one again, then read my post which is sandwiched between your two posts.

As for “if you are a great Catholic, as you claim,” I’ve actually always admitted I’m the opposite to being a great Catholic...


I think we hit submit at just about the same time. But yes, I liked your previous post. I think it’s on point, certainly when it comes to the average age of death from Covid. The fact that it is higher than life expectancy (usually in the 80s) raises major questions about the honesty in reporting cause of death.
 

Horsa

Equine-loving rhyme-artist
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
4,865
Reactions
1,308
Points
113
Location
Britain
If this is the future, it's depressing...
I'd agree, though for a long time the news was nearly always bad.
The news was also nearly always sad.
It would be nice if we could get back the old social norms.
It would be nice if the world wasn't always full of storms.
It would be nice if we could go back to living like they did in history.
It would be nice if normal life wasn't such a mystery.
It would be nice if we didn't have to treat everyone as if they had B.O.
It would be good if we could just go where we had to or wanted to go.
It would be nice if in public we didn't always have to cover our face.
This new normal at first was extremely hard to embrace.

Oops! I really must stop thinking in rhyme. Sorry! It happens sometimes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
Okay, let's try an experiment here: whose side will Moxie take - the white male scientist in the U.S. (Fauci) or the woman of color Sunetra Gupta at Oxford (who just happens to be the world's preeminent infectious disease epidemiologist)?

She will of course take the side of Fauci, the old white male, simply because he is a Democrat beloved by Democrats. But Dr. Gupta is completely anti-lockdown and in clear agreement with the Trump/Scott Atlas approach of opening up while protecting the vulnerable.

Professor Gupta makes the case very coherently.....


Prof Sunetra Gupta: Protect the vulnerable, don't lock down again | SpectatorTV​


Oct 2, 2020


 
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Horsa

Equine-loving rhyme-artist
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
4,865
Reactions
1,308
Points
113
Location
Britain
I was in Rome in July/August and Sicily in September and wearing masks outdoors wasn't compulsory. In fact, nobody wore them, which sounds wise, since the inability to breathe outdoors in 40 degrees heat might suppress immunity.

Ireland have gone into lockdown not because cases/deaths are out of control, or the hospitals are overrun, but because our government have changed tack: we tried to flatten the curve in March - now we decide to flatten the country.

We have clueless, cowardly politicians who are not thinking of the negative effects of lockdowns, but instead are listening to scientists who are projecting doom-laden scenarios. In Ireland, we wasted the summer, and now they're hoping this six week lockdown will end up with us all having a Very Merry Christmas, and a Lockdown New Year. They have no exit strategy and no clue as to how to marry their own words - "we have to learn to live with Covid" - to real life situations inflicted by them which will kill people in other ways. Domestic abuse went through the roof during the previous lockdown, child abuse, alcohol abuse, personal debt, job losses, a whole raft of crucial hospital appointments for people who had life threatening non-Covid conditions were missed, and we have nothing to show for it.

Just a curious stat - the average age of death in Ireland in 2019 was 82. The average age of Covid-related deaths is 83...
I hope you enjoyed your holidays. I don't wear a face mask. I wear a face shield instead as I can breathe in face shields but not face masks. The only disadvantages to face shields are they rub my nose if I have them on too long, (as do my spectacles but I need them) & I sound funny with the face shield on.

I was fuming when I 1st realised that we were told we had to have a good reason to be out. I thought they don't have the right to take our freedom off us. (I was really looking forward to vocally conducting a 1940's sing-along for a 1940's day at work on V.E. Day which had to be cancelled. I love getting other people to sing & seeing people enjoy themselves.) I thought we should just "Keep calm & carry on" at the time. I realise now that they had to do something about the situation. I just had a lot on at the time we went into lockdown. I realise a lot of people got Coronavirus & died which is very sad. (You're from Ireland? I heard some parts of Ireland look similar to the Highlands of Scotland which I love. Have you ever been to Connemara? I'd love to go there & see the ponies in the wild. I love Scots/Irish music & most of my ancestors are Scots/Irish.)

I'd agree with the 1st & last 2 sentences of your 3rd paragraph. I just want to get back to normal A.S.A.P.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Kieran

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
I hope you enjoyed your holidays. I don't wear a face mask. I wear a face shield instead as I can breathe in face shields but not face masks. The only disadvantages to face shields are they rub my nose if I have them on too long, (as do my spectacles but I need them) & I sound funny with the face shield on.

I was fuming when I 1st realised that we were told we had to have a good reason to be out. I thought they don't have the right to take our freedom off us. (I was really looking forward to vocally conducting a 1940's sing-along for a 1940's day at work on V.E. Day which had to be cancelled. I love getting other people to sing & seeing people enjoy themselves.) I thought we should just "Keep calm & carry on" at the time. I realise now that they had to do something about the situation. I just had a lot on at the time we went into lockdown. I realise a lot of people got Coronavirus & died which is very sad. (You're from Ireland? I heard some parts of Ireland look similar to the Highlands of Scotland which I love. Have you ever been to Connemara? I'd love to go there & see the ponies in the wild. I love Scots/Irish music & most of my ancestors are Scots/Irish.)

I'd agree with the 1st & last 2 sentences of your 3rd paragraph. I just want to get back to normal A.S.A.P.
I loved my holidays, thanks. Italy were on our "green list" of countries to travel to without facing quarantine at either end. Rome was empty in July, so it was strange, but still of course, beautiful. Brought it home to me how much I miss living near a city. The Italians wore masks indoors but not outside, which suited me. I'd been told by an Italian friend that by the time I'd get to Sicily I'd have to wear a mask everywhere and just take it off when I plonk on the beach towel. I didn't wear a mask anywhere at all, mainly because I wasn't indoors at all.

I don't mind change or new normals if they're necessary, I can adjust and am blessed to not have caught this horrid virus, and hopefully I won't. But I'm not happy with the Irish government handling of this at all, particularly with their punitive and unjust - and unjustified - lockdown which began last week...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Horsa

Horsa

Equine-loving rhyme-artist
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
4,865
Reactions
1,308
Points
113
Location
Britain
I loved my holidays, thanks. Italy were on our "green list" of countries to travel to without facing quarantine at either end. Rome was empty in July, so it was strange, but still of course, beautiful. Brought it home to me how much I miss living near a city. The Italians wore masks indoors but not outside, which suited me. I'd been told by an Italian friend that by the time I'd get to Sicily I'd have to wear a mask everywhere and just take it off when I plonk on the beach towel. I didn't wear a mask anywhere at all, mainly because I wasn't indoors at all.

I don't mind change or new normals if they're necessary, I can adjust and am blessed to not have caught this horrid virus, and hopefully I won't. But I'm not happy with the Irish government handling of this at all, particularly with their punitive and unjust - and unjustified - lockdown which began last week...
You're welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed your holidays. I guess you don't live near "Dublin's fair city" then. Only wearing masks indoors sounds good as they stop you breathing well sometimes. It's good that you managed to stay outdoors most of the time.

I don't mind changes either when they're necessary as I can adapt too. Luckily, me, my Mother & Sister haven't caught this virus either & fingers crossed we won't. I was just gutted because some of the fun, creative & vocal sides of my job had to be knocked off because of lockdown & I ended up just doing online training & research tasks & an equine history research & report writing task as well as knitting & quilting tasks. I missed everyone. I'm not happy with how our gov. handled the lockdown either especially the text message we were sent which sounded rather threatening & came at the wrong time for us. I don't mind missing out on doing unimportant normal things because of the virus but sometimes doing important normal things was hard or impossible with these restrictions or I had to do things differently.
 
Last edited:

Horsa

Equine-loving rhyme-artist
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
4,865
Reactions
1,308
Points
113
Location
Britain
I'm fed up with these new rules.
I'm sick of all the fools
Who won't wear a mask.
They don't get taken to task
For not using the anti-covid tools.

The people I mention won't give others personal space.
They don't wear anything on their face.
Then the Coronavirus rates go up.
In cafes you can no longer sup
As you end up in a very high risk place.

I wish this virus would go away.
Then people could go about their day.
We could all have our freedom back.
Social lives we wouldn't lack.
We'd have more to do to keep boredom at bay.
 

Horsa

Equine-loving rhyme-artist
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
4,865
Reactions
1,308
Points
113
Location
Britain
The thing about this virus is it's been hogging the news.
Everybody though seems to have different views.
Hardly anything else seems to be going on in the world.
Whereas before bad & sad news always got unfurled.
Instead on rules & data about Covid we have to muse.
 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,700
Reactions
14,878
Points
113
I think with Sweden, a large part of their economy is export based, so that would naturally suffer, regardless of whether or not they did as most other countries did. I'm open to correction on this, but I've read it from a few sources.

Sweden's goal from the beginning - rightly or wrongly - was to play the long game on Covid, based upon their experts views on the behaviour of viruses. They felt the virus has to run through the population but they could slow its spread through certain measures. They're not the same measures as everyone else (who also largely agree the virus is not going away so we best live with it), but if we see that their death rates now are going in the opposite direction to everyone else, it's probably insufficient of the bloke who wrote the article to write the final paragraph as he did, without adding another option, which is that maybe they're getting it right, after all?

We should always read "so far" in articles critiquing the virus response, because Covid is a long game, but also, we should learn about a regions population density, the proportion of its population which are in the Covid crosshairs, before we decide who did badly, who did better. Britain apparently has 20 times the number of people in the Covid peril zone than Ireland has, so obviously its death rate might reflect this. It's more densely populated, by many times. New Zealand gets a lot of kudos for how they handle it, but I think this is nonsense. They have a land mass almost 4 times the size of Ireland, with about 2/3 or 3/4 of the population of my beautiful green isle. There are also factors regarding how we measure Covid deaths. There are a lot of ways in which data can be viewed.

I'm not saying Sweden is right in this regard, but I think it's far too early for anyone to say. They haven't chosen this route willy-nilly, and as we still see experts flummoxed by the virus, they have a right to choose their own experts over other countries.
I did post this in counter to Cali's post about how great Sweden is doing, without any nuance. I absolutely agree with you that Covid is a long game and that "so far" could always be added. I also firmly agree that we have to look at many different factors by country before we give a full-throated yea or nay to their response. I have said this before about different countries, and about different states in the US. Cali is mostly interested in bolstering his original position, not in really looking at the fine points. Which is why he chooses to call me a partisan, when I have actually called for reason within situation.

Agreed that NZ had a bunch of things in their favor for containing the virus. And Sweden hasn't been fully "do what you like." You have to take into account that Swedes tend to be rather conformist and obedient, so their govenment didn't feel that they needed so many mandates, as much as suggestions. By the same token, they have had more deaths and problems than some like to claim. It's an approach, the one they've taken, and it's worth looking at. But when you have a country that is smaller and more monolithic in its approach to life and attitude towards social responsibility (they are very serious about social responsibility,) you might be ok with a more hands-off policy, counting on your citizens to react appropriately. In a large country, with a more diverse population, you have to handle it differently. Everyone is learning on the job with this, but politicizing it really doesn't help.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,700
Reactions
14,878
Points
113
Okay, let's try an experiment here: whose side will Moxie take - the white male scientist in the U.S. (Fauci) or the woman of color Sunetra Gupta at Oxford (who just happens to be the world's preeminent infectious disease epidemiologist)?

She will of course take the side of Fauci, the old white male, simply because he is a Democrat beloved by Democrats. But Dr. Gupta is completely anti-lockdown and in clear agreement with the Trump/Scott Atlas approach of opening up while protecting the vulnerable.

Professor Gupta makes the case very coherently.....


Prof Sunetra Gupta: Protect the vulnerable, don't lock down again | SpectatorTV​


Oct 2, 2020



I have no idea why you need to make this conversation about white guy v woman of color. I think they were having an interview, not a debate. Her opinion was the lead on it. She did actually say that she could see why there was a lockdown early, while we got a bead on what was going on. That's what everyone said was wise. I think we've all said that the thing to do, based on what we know, is to protect the most vulnerable and try to get back to life as much as we can, even before there is a vaccine. What is the conflict here, as you see it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
I did post this in counter to Cali's post about how great Sweden is doing, without any nuance. I absolutely agree with you that Covid is a long game and that "so far" could always be added. I also firmly agree that we have to look at many different factors by country before we give a full-throated yea or nay to their response. I have said this before about different countries, and about different states in the US. Cali is mostly interested in bolstering his original position, not in really looking at the fine points. Which is why he chooses to call me a partisan, when I have actually called for reason within situation.

Agreed that NZ had a bunch of things in their favor for containing the virus. And Sweden hasn't been fully "do what you like." You have to take into account that Swedes tend to be rather conformist and obedient, so their govenment didn't feel that they needed so many mandates, as much as suggestions. By the same token, they have had more deaths and problems than some like to claim. It's an approach, the one they've taken, and it's worth looking at. But when you have a country that is smaller and more monolithic in its approach to life and attitude towards social responsibility (they are very serious about social responsibility,) you might be ok with a more hands-off policy, counting on your citizens to react appropriately. In a large country, with a more diverse population, you have to handle it differently. Everyone is learning on the job with this, but politicizing it really doesn't help.

The swedes had a lot of care home deaths, which account for the larger percentage in a lot of countries, my own included. It’s a tragedy but it’s not the plague we all thought it was. We walk a fine line here, because it’s obviously brutal and much more dangerous than flu, so we can’t dismiss it either. Precautions and restrictions of some sort are necessary, but what they should be, we’ve yet to hear a unified, decisive and definitive reply from the scientists.

The American situation is curious to me, because like rape allegations and corruption, everything in America gets devalued to become a piece on a chessboard in your culture wars, which unfortunately are as contagious and dangerous as the virus. So obviously your divisions are more political than anything else, which leads me to wonder just what kind of power the president actually has over states that are not run by his party. What powers do governors, mayors, senators, etc, have in their positions of state leadership.

Honest question, by the way, because so many states have had different results with Covid, and I wonder if that’s to do with the variables, population density etc, age groups, factors such as underlying conditions, and not just to do with policy?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Horsa

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
Okay, let's try an experiment here: whose side will Moxie take - the white male scientist in the U.S. (Fauci) or the woman of color Sunetra Gupta at Oxford (who just happens to be the world's preeminent infectious disease epidemiologist)?

She will of course take the side of Fauci, the old white male, simply because he is a Democrat beloved by Democrats. But Dr. Gupta is completely anti-lockdown and in clear agreement with the Trump/Scott Atlas approach of opening up while protecting the vulnerable.

Professor Gupta makes the case very coherently.....


Prof Sunetra Gupta: Protect the vulnerable, don't lock down again | SpectatorTV​


Oct 2, 2020




She’s very good. She was always on “the other team”, not Neil Ferguson and the imperial college, and I remember reading about her projections in March and they stood starkly and diametrically opposed to his typically insane and hysteria inducing exaggerations, and she’s been proven correct. She makes a very thought provoking point about “endemic equilibrium”, which may sound terrifying but makes absolute sense, and which we’ll have no choice but to eventually achieve this anyway. We can’t stay permanently in denial about this virus and the fact that it’s not going away...
 

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
By the way, I think these sniffer dogs might be a game changer:

 

Moxie

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
43,700
Reactions
14,878
Points
113
The swedes had a lot of care home deaths, which account for the larger percentage in a lot of countries, my own included. It’s a tragedy but it’s not the plague we all thought it was. We walk a fine line here, because it’s obviously brutal and much more dangerous than flu, so we can’t dismiss it either. Precautions and restrictions of some sort are necessary, but what they should be, we’ve yet to hear a unified, decisive and definitive reply from the scientists.

The American situation is curious to me, because like rape allegations and corruption, everything in America gets devalued to become a piece on a chessboard in your culture wars, which unfortunately are as contagious and dangerous as the virus. So obviously your divisions are more political than anything else, which leads me to wonder just what kind of power the president actually has over states that are not run by his party. What powers do governors, mayors, senators, etc, have in their positions of state leadership.

Honest question, by the way, because so many states have had different results with Covid, and I wonder if that’s to do with the variables, population density etc, age groups, factors such as underlying conditions, and not just to do with policy?
I agree that we walk a fine line discussing what kind of deaths are "acceptable," because it hasn't all been in nursing homes, by a long stretch. It's also impossible to say that "it's not the plague we all thought it was," because we can't know how bad things might have been had no precautions been taken. I agreed with the idea of a lockdown, at least in some places, while we bought time to learn more. Which is also why I don't agree with keeping things too restricted now, as we do have to keep people and businesses solvent, and we DO know more, including how to be cautious. There is a real point to be made that the solution can't be made worse than the virus.

It's unfortunate that the virus and the approach to it has been politicized so outrageously in the US. (And there is certainly blame on both sides.) To answer your question about who controls local policy, it is the governors of the states and mayors of the cities. Senators and Representatives, on the Federal level, can pass stimulus and otherwise legislate, but it's generally more down to governors and mayors. However, as to the bolded above, you hit on something that I think is a problem: Trump shouldn't just sway states that his party "controls." The President's power is not to mandate from on high on this, but to lead us and unite us in a crisis, which he has failed to do. I don't blame him for every mixed message that we got, but he certainly has made it a lot about himself, as he does in all things. That's my opinion.

As to your last question, about variables, I think that's the really complicated part, as it is across the globe. In this country, people that have been disproportionately sickened and have died also tend to be Black and brown people, and those who are poor. (One reason I say we can't just put it down to the elderly and those with pre-existing health problems.) However, here, in states where they have less-dense populations and fewer of the other circumstances that made the initial outbreaks so quick and sharp, those were the ones that ignored any protocols and got great outbreaks later, and I think that was much to do with policy...those that took the laissez-faire approach. We are 48 contiguous states, and if we don't work together, that's a problem, in terms of a contagious virus. That's where the decision from the top to be more divisive than unifying was a failure, IMO.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Kieran

Kieran

The GOAT
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
17,039
Reactions
7,329
Points
113
I agree that we walk a fine line discussing what kind of deaths are "acceptable," because it hasn't all been in nursing homes, by a long stretch. It's also impossible to say that "it's not the plague we all thought it was," because we can't know how bad things might have been had no precautions been taken. I agreed with the idea of a lockdown, at least in some places, while we bought time to learn more. Which is also why I don't agree with keeping things too restricted now, as we do have to keep people and businesses solvent, and we DO know more, including how to be cautious. There is a real point to be made that the solution can't be made worse than the virus.

Well, the "fine line" I'm referring to is the line between where we may "take the virus more seriously" and where we "should dismiss this as just a flu," because both lines may have good things said for them, but to dismiss the virus out of hand as not threatening is as dangerous as the cure most governments prefer, such as blanket lockdowns. The virus is serious, even occasionally among the young, though the statists indicate that there are certain demographics more vulnerable than others
It's unfortunate that the virus and the approach to it has been politicized so outrageously in the US. (And there is certainly blame on both sides.) To answer your question about who controls local policy, it is the governors of the states and mayors of the cities. Senators and Representatives, on the Federal level, can pass stimulus and otherwise legislate, but it's generally more down to governors and mayors. However, as to the bolded above, you hit on something that I think is a problem: Trump shouldn't just sway states that his party "controls." The President's power is not to mandate from on high on this, but to lead us and unite us in a crisis, which he has failed to do. I don't blame him for every mixed message that we got, but he certainly has made it a lot about himself, as he does in all things. That's my opinion.
Thanks for that, sister! I agree about Trump, he's too volatile and partisan to unite or inspire both sides of the political divide. He's just too trigger happy of the lip to be taken seriously, because so many of his pronouncements, tweets and reactions don't seem like they're the product of careful or nuanced thought. To be kind about it. :face-with-tears-of-joy:
As to your last question, about variables, I think that's the really complicated part, as it is across the globe. In this country, people that have been disproportionately sickened and have died also tend to be Black and brown people, and those who are poor. (One reason I say we can't just put it down to the elderly and those with pre-existing health problems.) However, here, in states where they have less-dense populations and fewer of the other circumstances that made the initial outbreaks so quick and sharp, those were the ones that ignored any protocols and got great outbreaks later, and I think that was much to do with policy...those that took the laissez-faire approach. We are 48 contiguous states, and if we don't work together, that's a problem, in terms of a contagious virus. That's where the decision from the top to be more divisive than unifying was a failure, IMO.

I don't know the stats in America, but largely this virus is killing and badly affecting those with underlying issues, and of course, the elderly. And among the elderly, the death rates aren't humongous among those who actually catch the virus. We always have this question about the role of Covid in deaths - my own dad was in a nursing home until he passed away in December 2018. Had he caught Covid and died he'd have been classified as having died from a "Covid related death", but really, Covid would have had little or nothing to do with it. A car backfiring in the car park might have affected him as badly, unfortunately. He was 83, and of course though this was a personal tragedy for us, we knew he wasn't taken from us too early.

But Covid is a decisive factor in many deaths among the elderly, but this is unavoidable, even though it's unfortunate. I know also that underlying issues are largely helping Covid's cause. Obesity, diabetes, poor diet, smoking etc, and if I maybe indelicate for a moment, in American some of these are as much an epidemic as Covid.

In terms of the stat that "black and brown people, and those who are poor" are more affected, I don't know what the numbers are, but there maybe many reasons for this. In Ireland, the least affected area is a wealthy suburb of Dublin, and one reason might be that the people who live there have jobs where they work from home. They don't have to get on the bus or train, they don't have to run the social gamut of facing queues anywhere. They switch on the computer and go to work, in their study. Working class people are not able to avail of this. In fact, I know many people who work from home and I find they're the ones more anxious to see a lockdown, and I put it to them that it's very handy for them, they lose no income, they in fact gain by staying at home, whereas for others, the economy crashing has been catastrophic on so many levels.

I get accused of being like Trump for saying this, but I dismiss this nonsense.

Other interesting things I'm considering lately is the initial surges in Italy and Spain, where as you know, the people are so tactile. I was in Italy 3 times this year, the first time at the end of February, the early stages of panic in the west, and I noticed how they still greeted each other with multiple kisses and hugs. My Roman friend was annoyed by this, she lives in Dublin now many years and she can't believe that they were still doing that then. They were still doing it in July. My sister lives in Madrid for 30 years and she says the same. Also, the Spanish have this strange policy of suppressing the immune system by insisting that people wear masks outdoors too, even in 40 degrees heat. That's strange, and I'd imagine counter-productive...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie

calitennis127

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
4,947
Reactions
459
Points
83
This is the Stanford scientist who the media are attacking for being anti-lockdown. Trump added him to the coronavirus task force, albeit too late. It would have been much better to follow his advice than Fauci’s from the start:





 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Moxie