What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

Federberg

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You've posted a few 5G articles. What are your thoughts?
I've been inundated with WhatsApp messages and conspiracies about 5G. It's utterly insane here. You heard about the 5G towers that were attacked right? I honestly don't know what to think, but it's become a focus of attention that's for sure. It worries me that there doesn't seem to have been much research done to confirm human and animal safety. All for the mighty dollar?? Insane. When will we ever learn...
 

britbox

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I've been inundated with WhatsApp messages and conspiracies about 5G. It's utterly insane here. You heard about the 5G towers that were attacked right? I honestly don't know what to think, but it's become a focus of attention that's for sure. It worries me that there doesn't seem to have been much research done to confirm human and animal safety. All for the mighty dollar?? Insane. When will we ever learn...
Yeah, I saw they burned one down in Liverpool. Not sure of the health element though - I'll have to read more about it. Just be mindful though, that there was similar chatter re: 3G and 4G... although probably to a far lesser degree.
 

Federberg

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Yeah, I saw they burned one down in Liverpool. Not sure of the health element though - I'll have to read more about it. Just be mindful though, that there was similar chatter re: 3G and 4G... although probably to a far lesser degree.
Yup. But my understanding is that there's a quantum more radiation coming from these 5G networks. There's even a WhatsApp clip going around of a guy walking around with sensors (seemed like a Geiger counter but that doesn't make sense for microwaves [?]) showing where the 5G network had been laid in an UK urban setting. I've also watched some lectures from concerned academics. They seem worried, so hard for me not to be
 

britbox

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Yup. But my understanding is that there's a quantum more radiation coming from these 5G networks. There's even a WhatsApp clip going around of a guy walking around with sensors (seemed like a Geiger counter but that doesn't make sense for microwaves [?]) showing where the 5G network had been laid in an UK urban setting. I've also watched some lectures from concerned academics. They seem worried, so hard for me not to be
There might be valid concerns mate... they do seem in a hell of a rush with this... but equally there have been some weird wild theories being flung around about 5G and Coronavirus. Unfortunately, some of the wacky nonsense totally clouds more legitimate concerns.
 

Federberg

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There might be valid concerns mate... they do seem in a hell of a rush with this... but equally there have been some weird wild theories being flung around about 5G and Coronavirus. Unfortunately, some of the wacky nonsense totally clouds more legitimate concerns.
Y I'm less concerned about the 5G corona virus link
 

calitennis127

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Just as in many places in the USA.....many hospitals in the UK are vacant.

NHS hospitals have four times more empty beds than normal

 

Federberg

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Just as in many places in the USA.....many hospitals in the UK are vacant.

NHS hospitals have four times more empty beds than normal

I think this is an expected outcome of the pandemic. It forces resource prioritisation towards covid-19 and the delay of other vital operations. It's the system overload everyone was talking about. Is there a particular point you're making? Just trying to understand
 

calitennis127

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I think this is an expected outcome of the pandemic. It forces resource prioritisation towards covid-19 and the delay of other vital operations. It's the system overload everyone was talking about. Is there a particular point you're making? Just trying to understand

There are two points:

1) There are hospitals all over the place that are empty. This runs counter to the narrative that hospitals are at risk of overflowing with COVID patients. Blaming this all on a "re-prioritization" is a copout. I'm not talking about empty orthopedic clinics. We're talking about empty hospitals all over the place that are going so far as to lay off workers.

2) The patterns here are highly suspicious. This very short article raises those questions.

Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone?
Except for treating Covid-19, many hospitals seem to be eerily quiet.

 

Federberg

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There are two points:

1) There are hospitals all over the place that are empty. This runs counter to the narrative that hospitals are at risk of overflowing with COVID patients. Blaming this all on a "re-prioritization" is a copout. I'm not talking about empty orthopedic clinics. We're talking about empty hospitals all over the place that are going so far as to lay off workers.

2) The patterns here are highly suspicious. This very short article raises those questions.

Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone?
Except for treating Covid-19, many hospitals seem to be eerily quiet.

but this was expected Cali. I'm not sure what the suspicions are. This is precisely what experts predicted. Imagine going in for a heart operation and you get infected by the virus. It's a lethal combination. This is the problem with a novel virus where there are no known palliatives. You can go in for one thing and be killed by something else. Not every country has the sheer resource scale of China which was able to select isolate hospitals for non-covid cases. Also remember that a significant proportion of medical practitioners are being infected by the virus as well. It's complex
 
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calitennis127

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but this was expected Cali. I'm not sure what the suspicions are. This is precisely what experts predicted.

This is not what the experts predicted. What they predicted was hospitals overrun by COVID patients without sufficient staffing at the hospitals to assist them.....what we are seeing pan out is the opposite of that narrative. Hospitals all over the place are vacant and hospitals are laying off workers more than they are desperately looking for more staff.

Imagine going in for a heart operation and you get infected by the virus. It's a lethal combination.

That certainly could be a lethal combination - if that's what was happening.

Also remember that a significant proportion of medical practitioners are being infected by the virus as well. It's complex

It certainly is, and part of the complexity are the ramifications of this guideline from the CDC to doctors on reporting deaths as COVID:

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as "probable" or "presumed." In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely."

Now, be honest, that is a major invitation to falsification.

 

Jelenafan

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Excerpt:
"In the French study, doctors looked back at medical records for 181 patients with Covid-19 who had pneumonia and required supplemental oxygen. About half had taken hydroxychloroquine within 48 hours of being admitted to the hospital, and the other half had not.
Publisher of hydroxychloroquine study touted by Trump says the research didn't meet its standards

Publisher of hydroxychloroquine study touted by Trump says the research didn't meet its standards

The doctors followed the patients and found there was no statistically significant difference in the death rates of the two groups, or their chances of being admitted to the intensive care unit.
The study also raised important safety concerns about hydroxychloroquine.
In the study, eight patients who took the drug developed abnormal heart rhythms and had to stop taking it.
Abnormal heart rhythms are a known side effect of hydroxychloroquine, which has been used for decades to treat patients with diseases such as malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis."
 
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Federberg

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This is not what the experts predicted. What they predicted was hospitals overrun by COVID patients without sufficient staffing at the hospitals to assist them.....what we are seeing pan out is the opposite of that narrative. Hospitals all over the place are vacant and hospitals are laying off workers more than they are desperately looking for more staff.
not sure what you read, but it's exactly what was predicted. No doubt there have been many pieces on this. But this is what you get when you get an overload of health care systems
 

Federberg

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That certainly could be a lethal combination - if that's what was happening.
Well that's not happening because the vast majority of non-covid cases are being deferred. I know several people who have had medical prodedures delayed indefinitely. I'm not quite sure what conspiracy people are looking for. I'm tempted to pose the question, what exactly should governments do? Just ignore the pandemic, and have business as usual? What exactly is this alternative that some people are arguing for? I'm really confused
 

Federberg

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Ha! for some reason I thought I was debating with @Jelenafan now that I realise it's Cali this debate is not interesting to me anymore...
 
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calitennis127

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not sure what you read, but it's exactly what was predicted. No doubt there have been many pieces on this. But this is what you get when you get an overload of health care systems


Okay, great. Then send me a link to a piece predicting vacant hospitals all over the United States and the UK during the coronavirus pandemic. You know you're dancing around the ultimate point.....which is that there are far fewer people being treated for COVID-19 than you want to admit. The idea was to free up bed space and equipment for COVID-19 patients. But now those patients aren't there. Why is that?
 

calitennis127

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Well that's not happening because the vast majority of non-covid cases are being deferred. I know several people who have had medical prodedures delayed indefinitely.

This isn't just about hip replacement surgeries and getting breast implants. That is a straw man argument.

I'm tempted to pose the question, what exactly should governments do? Just ignore the pandemic, and have business as usual? What exactly is this alternative that some people are arguing for? I'm really confused

Okay, then I'll help you out a bit. The alternative is to not cause tens of millions of people to go unemployed, with all the attendant social and economic consequences. You may want to consider that alternative.
 

Federberg

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This isn't just about hip replacement surgeries and getting breast implants. That is a straw man argument.



Okay, then I'll help you out a bit. The alternative is to not cause tens of millions of people to go unemployed, with all the attendant social and economic consequences. You may want to consider that alternative.
not really engaging here. I'm just going to point out something you have done repeatedly. You have not provided an alternative you've pointed out an aspirational outcome. I want you to be brave here. Man up and tell us, with specificity, what your alternative plan would have been. HOW do you deal with this pandemic without causing massive unemployment. Show us all you're as smart as you think you are and come up with an answer for us please
 

calitennis127

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I want you to be brave here. Man up and tell us, with specificity, what your alternative plan would have been. HOW do you deal with this pandemic without causing massive unemployment. Show us all you're as smart as you think you are and come up with an answer for us please

Sure. I’m not sure what level of specificity you are looking for, but I do think that the extra precautions being taken in public places right now (distancing, constant hand washing, and even masks) would have been sufficient to ward off extreme outbreaks without putting everyone out of work. In fact, Hong Kong did that 23 days ago and they have been fine. They have not had a single new death and their cases keep going down. I’m sure Moxie will be devastated to see this graph but here goes:



And then there’s this reality.....coronavirus has either not impacted or barely impacted any part of the U.S. outside of NYC. You are assuming it to be far worse than it has been: