US Politics Thread

[Obsi]

America might call itself capitalist but it's just another socialist construct by other means

Bullshit.

Read and educate yourself https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism

 

[calitennis127]

Agreed, but the sole purpose for AntiFA is to combat neo-fascist groups as far as I understand. So while as a standalone proposition they would look like Militant to me.... I'll simply say this... "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Well your understanding is incorrect. The purpose of Antifa is to violently intimidate anyone who does not agree with the leftist political agenda. They have attacked people and vandalized property in numerous cities including Portland, Berkeley, Oakland, and DC.

 

[calitennis127]

I cannot believe you've brought me to this! But....

I agree with @Obsi!

It's not a counter-example mate... fascism is the right wing version that most closely relates to totalitarianism, while communism is the leftist equivalent. Read the Road to Serfdom! And I agree with him, people mistake communism and fascism as opposites but the circle is the appropriate description

How in the world was Mussolini's Italy "totalitarian"? It was admired by American proponents of the New Deal.

 

[mrzz]

How in the world was Mussolini's Italy "totalitarian"? It was admired by American proponents of the New Deal.

One thing has little bearing on the other. There were not that much democratic institutions on Mussolini's Italy, and those that were there were controlled by force by his partisans. Yes, there were worst regimes in that department, but the word fits well. The term "fascism" did not became universally associated with radical political views for nothing.

 

[Federberg]

Well your understanding is incorrect. The purpose of Antifa is to violently intimidate anyone who does not agree with the leftist political agenda. They have attacked people and vandalized property in numerous cities including Portland, Berkeley, Oakland, and DC.

Cali's back! Where were you mate?

My understanding - and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - is that they've morphed into that now. I do agree that's what they seem to be doing now, but that's not how they started

 

[Federberg]

I can see the next major error the Federal Reserve is going to make already. With this terrible hurricane season hitting two of the largest states it looks like GDP growth is going to be negatively impacted at just the moment super low unemployment was prompting the Fed to look seriously at an extended hiking cycle. This bad weather will probably convince the Fed to slow down future hikes, when all the reconstruction will encourage faster growth and severely pressure employment. Stand by for faster wage growth and a Fed that ends up behind the curve. I suspect by Q2 next year they'll be hiking aggressively just when one of the longest bull markets in recent times is getting long in the tooth. It's not going to be pretty! Amazing how history repeats itself (see post 87 crash) or better still rhymes...

 

[Nekro]

 

[Nekro]

 

[Federberg]

It's well documented I'm a never Trumper, but I must say, credit to him for finally realising that bipartisanship is the way to go. He's going to make me reduce my level of dislike at this rate. I'm not sure I'm ready for that!

Interestingly if he keeps on on this path, he might make the electorate start to think that a Democratic Congress with Trump in the executive might be the way to go. That could be a disaster for him as he'll most likely be impeached. Let's face it on the evidence that's been collected to date he should already have been facing impeachment charges

 

[britbox]

It's well documented I'm a never Trumper, but I must say, credit to him for finally realising that bipartisanship is the way to go. He's going to make me reduce my level of dislike at this rate. I'm not sure I'm ready for that!

Interestingly if he keeps on on this path, he might make the electorate start to think that a Democratic Congress with Trump in the executive might be the way to go. That could be a disaster for him as he'll most likely be impeached. Let's face it on the evidence that's been collected to date he should already have been facing impeachment charges

He'd never lose a case on the evidence as it stands right now.

 

[Federberg]

He'd never lose a case on the evidence as it stands right now.

I'm not sure we know what evidence has been collected so far mate. Mueller doesn't leak.

 

[Federberg]

The argument that Russia didn't affect the US election is becoming more and more untenable, with the social media revelations. Hope people are watching and taking note!

I have to say I'm hugely impressed by how Russia did this. Those of us in Europe were aware of their success in Eastern Europe but people in the US were far too arrogant or complacent to recognise the danger. I'm now waiting to see if Trump acknowledge this, of course he'll have to remove Putins cock from his mouth first. He did swear an oath to uphold American democracy and defend its constitution after all. It's getting to the stage where if he doesn't admit what happened (and he can do this without admitting conspiracy or collusion) it becomes a gross dereliction of duty and frankly an impeachable offence on its face!

 

[britbox]

I don't think Russia affected the result of the election any more than a million other organisations with a vested interest. It's a red herring.

Did they try and influence the election? Probably, almost certainly. Much like Exxon, Coca-Cola, Shell, KMart and various middle eastern donors paying into Hillary Clintons "charitable" foundation.

Did Russia win the election for Trump? I doubt it very much. Trump won because he gave a different message, got a ton of coverage and concentrated almost exclusively on the swing states that would win him the election. Clinton had around three times as much money as Trump to spend...so all her donors were trying to swing the election too. Hillary Clinton as a candidate was another big reason why Trump won the election,

The irony is how indignant people get where a foreign country puts some resources behind a candidate in some form or another when the Americans are the biggest culprit across the entire globe of interfering in other countries politics. Remember the Contras and Sandanistas in El Salvador? Panama? Venezuela now? The Ukraine? Jeez, Obama even made a trip to the UK to try and interfere with Brexit.... What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Sure, the Russians had a favoured candidate... but so what?

 

[Federberg]

Red herring was tenable right at the start of this investigation, I don't think it is anymore, it's a bit naive or disingenuous to say such a thing. And false equivalences like lobbyist influence don't make the counter argument any more cogent. It's particularly ironic that you're talking about the Clinton foundation in such a way when it turns out one of the falsities spread by Russian bots was to malign the work of said foundations - you've been infected by the kool-aid and you don't even know it. Looks like you've been turned yourself! By the way I think that's going to be one of the most difficult things for people to cope with. No one's ever happy to find out they've been duped!

But let's leave all that aside, you continue to persist with false data. Possibly the most exasperating one is that Clinton massively outspent Trump. But the reality is that it's media time that matters. Even media outlets acknowledge that Trump was allocated far more media time than any candidate, whether GOP or Clinton, that's just a fact, any honest observer would agree with that. On top of all that though, the media was complicit, as was Obama, and Comey, in pre-judging the election outcome that adversely impacted how Clinton was treated. Do I feel sorry for her? Well maybe a little, but that's not the point. Trump had all the advantages and the idea that there was a campaign against him is laughable. She was a shockingly bad candidate, the woman ain't good at politics. In fact it's hard to find a Democrat at the moment who is remotely competent at politics. Perhaps Joe Biden?

But for me, my biggest issue with your view point is that you persist in suggesting that because the US interferes with other countries elections we should just say... so what to Russian interference. You are much smarter than that. We should all be concerned that American polity is now so weak that it can be manipulated with the ease that the Russians have been able to do this. But for me it's about more than that. What I find astonishing is the utter inability of Americans to understand or even acknowledge what's still happening to them. It represents a danger to the entire world that the most powerful country on earth has become so fractured, weak and frankly stupid. So in summary I don't care about the moral turn about, yes I actually chuckle when I consider Central American or even African politicians shaking their heads at the irony of what's been done to the United States. But it's irrelevant. The worlds ultimate super power is now utterly pliable and if that doesn't make you uncomfortable it should

 

[britbox]

Well, first of all, the information on the Clinton Foundation came from her own website before the election. There was (and still is) a list of donors displayed, including heavy patronage from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai and a bunch of foreign countries.

One of the primary issue areas the Foundation covers is of course, the empowerment and health of women (unless your name is Monica Lewinsky). As I stated at the time, Saudi donations to a foreign charity with this as one of the core principles didn't add up for me. Sure, we'll stone women to death at home but pay millions into a foreign charity that has the empowerment and wellness of women as one of it's fundamental principles.

Sorry, something stinks. Anyone can join the dots... and it doesn't need a Russian social media bot to draw them.

Weapons sales to some of Clinton's donors were at record levels when she was secretary of state. The donations have dropped by 37% and are expected to drop even more since her failed presidential run.

So, if that's false data, then tell me what the correct data is? It's published on her own website.

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Clinton did massively outspend Trump - that's not false data either.

I already said Trump had massive coverage in the previous post - so that's not false data.
Trump was prime time TV, utilised Twitter (on which he already had a following). Every time he tweeted it was covered by media outlets (good, bad and ugly ones) - Whether you like Trump or not, he is far more watcheable than Hillary Clinton. He's a one man soap opera.

So, tell me, what false data am I persisting with?

---

The Red Herring for me is the mantra that Trump wouldn't have won the election without Russian help. You haven't said this specifically, but it looks like that's what your alluding to.

I don't have much doubt that the Russians tried to influence the election in any way the could... but I see their power as minimal when lined up against all the corporate, tech, media, defense corporations, other countries backing Clinton.

IF Trump was directly colluding with the Russians to falsify the election results, or working with them to hack the Clinton camp emails then he's toast. if that evidence comes out, then yes, I will have been duped. We'll have to watch this space...

Clinton was a bad candidate - you've said it yourself. I'd put this down as the biggest influence on results not some social media bots.

 

[britbox]

Cali's back! Where were you mate?

My understanding - and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - is that they've morphed into that now. I do agree that's what they seem to be doing now, but that's not how they started

AntiFA are infiltrating college campuses, leftist groups and now general protests. Dangerous group who won't debate anything and just go with direct action. Very divisive and the reaction is that you get a lot of previously docile people either rising with them or against them.

 

[Moxie]

AntiFA are infiltrating college campuses, leftist groups and now general protests. Dangerous group who won't debate anything and just go with direct action. Very divisive and the reaction is that you get a lot of previously docile people either rising with them or against them.

Just as long as you don't consider "docile people" to be the KKK and neo-fascists. I'm not sure by what source you say they're infiltrating college campuses, leftist groups and general protests, or to what extent. I know they exist, but, as a fairly regular participant in resistance actions, I saw more "Black Flag" in the past than I see "Antifa" now. They are basically the same people. They are a small and not especially influential anarchist movement. I really think you over-state their importance. Probably the same as the KKK and neo-Nazis. That we are a very divided country is true, but to put too much importance on these small extremist groups would be to misrepresent they way things are going down here.

 

[Federberg]

I'm hearing that there is currently legislation going through Congress to make silencers legal? Is this true??

 

[britbox]

Just as long as you don't consider "docile people" to be the KKK and neo-fascists. I'm not sure by what source you say they're infiltrating college campuses, leftist groups and general protests, or to what extent. I know they exist, but, as a fairly regular participant in resistance actions, I saw more "Black Flag" in the past than I see "Antifa" now. They are basically the same people. They are a small and not especially influential anarchist movement. I really think you over-state their importance. Probably the same as the KKK and neo-Nazis. That we are a very divided country is true, but to put too much importance on these small extremist groups would be to misrepresent they way things are going down here.

I'm obviously not referring to neo-facists or KKK, I'm referring to people on the centre ground who are getting pulled into the arms of extremist groups - in particular groups like AntiFA.

 

[britbox]

I'm hearing that there is currently legislation going through Congress to make silencers legal? Is this true??

Yep, it's true.