US Politics Thread

Billie

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So what do we think of Obama's legacy? In all 8 years of his term, USA was involved in one war after the other (becoming the first US president to do so), sold most military weapons than any other US president before him, kept Guantanamo open, had the biggest surveillance scandal on his hands, developed drone killing.

https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-news/gold-war-120120161

http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-...n-budget-a-legacy-of-war-and-reaction/5565396

http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-br...urce=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles
 
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teddytennisfan

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So what do we think of Obama's legacy? In all 8 years of his term, USA was involved in one war after the other (becoming the first US president to do so), sold most military weapons than any other US president before him, kept Guantanamo open, had the biggest surveillance scandal on his hands, developed drone killing.

https://www.bullionvault.com/gold-news/gold-war-120120161

http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-...n-budget-a-legacy-of-war-and-reaction/5565396

http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-br...urce=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

wello -- Bllie -- where or how does one really begin with this worthless piece of crap sold and selling himself as some kind of '''i am the gift of god to humanity"?

SHOULD ONE start with the 2007-08 ''too big to fail" HELP;ING hand of sUPER duper B.O to the architects of financial plunder?

hmm - how about champion of humanely DRONING civilians to death especially in africa?

ehhh -- what about a couple of once-=prosperous stable countries that wouldn't bow and therefore had to be destroyed? like libya and syria --

waiiiittt -- surely one shouldn't forget to give B O credit for showing the world HOW to BE ALLIES with AL QAEDA, ISIL, DAEASH and call them and their offshoots 'moderate rebels/" ?

OH My -- SUPER DUPER B O has some ''record" to SHOW OFF! my my my............
 

Moxie

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So what do we think of Obama's legacy? In all 8 years of his term, USA was involved in one war after the other (becoming the first US president to do so), sold most military weapons than any other US president before him, kept Guantanamo open, had the biggest surveillance scandal on his hands, developed drone killing.

Which war would you cite that Obama initiated? That's not really fair. And I don't know what you mean about being "the first US president to do so." Guantanamo may not be closed, but he didn't open it as a detention center, but he has been reducing the number of inmates there. So that one's not really on him. Also not sure where he has the biggest surveillance scandal, so please explain that one. And drone warfare is new. I don't like it either.
 

Billie

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He is the first US president to spend all of his 8 years in term involved in a war with one country or another. Read the articles. He promised he would close Guantanamo in the first year of his service, never mind reducing prisoners, like we know how many there are at any point. The mass surveillance and spying started before Obama, that's true, but the leaks happened during his regime. https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying

Good that you don't like drone killings, I wonder why they keep doing it? Just look at the Middle East and chaos there: ruined countries, millions killed, millions refugees, like never before.

And military operations, spending, contracts, those are all OK with you? Not good arguments for Nobel Peace Prize, don't you think? But then again they jumped at it so soon. Do you think he should be nominated for it now? So much money spent on military when you have 2 neighbours who are pretty friendly to you: Canada especially and Mexico, who wouldn't dare do anything to anger the USA. Why they need so much military? There is really no better use for all those trillions of dollars?

And if the US president really can't do much and has to accept wars (even if we don't really know that those were initiated by him or not) then what good is he for?
 
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Moxie

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He is the first US president to spend all of his 8 years in term involved in a war with one country or another. Read the articles. He promised he would close Guantanamo in the first year of his service, never mind reducing prisoners, like we know how many there are at any point. The mass surveillance and spying started before Obama, that's true, but the leaks happened during his regime. https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying

Good that you don't like drone killings, I wonder why they keep doing it? Just look at the Middle East and chaos there: ruined countries, millions killed, millions refugees, like never before.

And military operations, spending, contracts, those are all OK with you? Not good arguments for Nobel Peace Prize, don't you think? But then again they jumped at it so soon. Do you think he should be nominated for it now? So much money spent on military when you have 2 neighbours who are pretty friendly to you: Canada especially and Mexico, who wouldn't dare do anything to anger the USA. Why they need so much military? There is really no better use for all those trillions of dollars?

And if the US president really can't do much and has to accept wars (even if we don't really know that those were initiated by him or not) then what good is he for?
I'll remind you again that the wars that the US finds itself in are the wars inherited from George W. Bush. But I'm fully with you that the US spends too much on the military. I don't really think that's a construct preferred from the left, so it won't get better under Trump, and he has said so. And, yes, I agree that many of those dollars could be better spent, including on taking care of the veterans coming back from those ill-conceived wars. A President can only do so much. Particularly if he is endlessly blocked by an obstructionist Congress. A version of universal healthcare is not a bad legacy. As a Canadian, I expect you would agree with that.
 

Federberg

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I wasnt particularly enthused about Obama at the start, I would have preferred the banks to cop a bit more in the aftermath of the financial crisis, but I warmed to him over time because of the obstacles he faced. He could have made a better fist of working with Congress but it's become clear that the GOP were determined to block him at every turn. I think that he will go down in history as a transformative President, but how history will view him is dependent on how successful Trump and Congress are in dismantling his policies. In terms of foreign policy the legacy isn't great, but his imprint on American society will probably last for generations. Probably the greatest orator of our lifetime though, not sure anyone can take that away from him
 
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teddytennisfan

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He is the first US president to spend all of his 8 years in term involved in a war with one country or another. Read the articles. He promised he would close Guantanamo in the first year of his service, never mind reducing prisoners, like we know how many there are at any point. The mass surveillance and spying started before Obama, that's true, but the leaks happened during his regime. https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying

Good that you don't like drone killings, I wonder why they keep doing it? Just look at the Middle East and chaos there: ruined countries, millions killed, millions refugees, like never before.

And military operations, spending, contracts, those are all OK with you? Not good arguments for Nobel Peace Prize, don't you think? But then again they jumped at it so soon. Do you think he should be nominated for it now? So much money spent on military when you have 2 neighbours who are pretty friendly to you: Canada especially and Mexico, who wouldn't dare do anything to anger the USA. Why they need so much military? There is really no better use for all those trillions of dollars?

And if the US president really can't do much and has to accept wars (even if we don't really know that those were initiated by him or not) then what good is he for?


Billie-- you see CRUDENESSS is quite characteristic of many americans. in all matters that actually matter.

on the other hand -- below is a video of the ALEXANDROV ENSEMBLE...
THEY perished -- a national treasure of Russia - ART , TRUE ARTISTIC achievement...unlike the CRUDE entertainment promoted by the americans --

the soloist =- mister OSIPOV -- i believe may have actually survived , if i am correct , as he could not leave his family for the plane trip that was tragic -- to go to syria -- as his wife was about to give birth, if i am correctly,

in any case -- this is the very ensemble -- musicians, dancers, singers, - plus the truly humanitarian russian doctor that keeps returning to syria to help - and many others that perished -- all 92 of them -- last week -- that many american bloggers LAUGH ABOUT.

in any case -- the russians understand BETTER than ANY american what TRUE love of country means...

with them singing FOR america what americans are so UNWORTHY OF .
==============
GOD BLESS AMERICA ANTHEM AS SUNG BY THE RUSSIANS -- on behalf of the CRUDE americans, let us say...
==================

watch
 

teddytennisfan

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C09C5T7UAAExCiR.jpg:large






it might be CRAIG MURRAY -- the venerable former ambassador from UK that described it as it:
OBAMA'S ''legacy" and reputation

''SWINGS BETWEEN the SEWER and the GUTTER"
 
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teddytennisfan

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russia-insider.com
Obama's Russian Exit - a Storm of Delusion, Pettiness, and Deceit

British Former Ambassador to Kazakhstan Craig Murray

(Craig Murray Blog) 6 hours ago | 1,389 29


I had promised myself and my family that on this holiday I would do nothing but relax. However events have overtaken my good intentions.

I find myself in the unusual position of having twice been in a position to know directly that governments were lying in globe-shaking events, firstly Iraqi WMD and now the “Russian hacks”.

Anybody who believes the latest report issued by Obama as “proof” provides anything of the sort is very easily impressed by some entirely meaningless diagrams.
William Binney, who was Technical Director at the NSA and actually designed their surveillance capabilities, has advised me by email.

It is plain from the report itself that the Russian groups discussed have been under targeted NSA surveillance for a period longer than the timeframe for the DNC and Podesta leaks.

It is therefore inconceivable that the NSA would not have detected and traced those particular data flows and they would be saved. In other words, the NSA would have the actual hack on record, would be able to recognise the emails themselves and tell you exactly the second the transmission or transmissions took place and how they were routed.

They would be able to give you date, time and IP addresses. In fact, not only do they produce no evidence of this kind, they do not even claim to have this kind of definite evidence.


Secondly, Bill points out that WikiLeaks is in itself a top priority target and any transmission to WikiLeaks or any of its major operatives would be tracked, captured and saved by NSA as a matter of routine. The exact route and date of the transmission or transmissions of the particular emails to WikiLeaks would be available. In fact, not only does the report not make this information available, it makes no claim at all to know anything about how the information was got to WikiLeaks.

(it was handed to the author -- Mister Murray by a disgruntled DNC insider -- therefore is a LEAK -- not a HACK)


Of course Russian hackers exist. They attack this blog pretty well continually – as do hackers from the USA and many other countries. Of course there have been attempted Russian hacks of the DNC. But the report gives no evidence at all of the alleged successful hack that transmitted these particular emails, nor any evidence of the connection between the hackers and the Russian government, let alone Putin.

There could be no evidence because in reality these were leaks, not hacks.

The report is, frankly, a pile of complete and utter dross. To base grave accusations of election hacking on this report is ludicrous.

Obama has been a severe disappointment to all progressive thinkers in virtually every possible way. He now goes out of power with absolutely no grace and in a storm of delusion and deceit.

His purpose is apparently to weaken Trump politically, but to achieve that at the expense of heightening tensions with Russia to Cold War levels, is shameful.

The very pettiness of Obama’s tongue out to Putin – minor sanctions and expelling some diplomatic families – itself shows that Obama is lying about the pretext. If he really believed that Russia had “hacked the election”, surely that would require a much less feeble response.

By refusing to retaliate, Russia has shown the kind of polish that eludes Obama as he takes his empty charisma and presentational skills into a no doubt lucrative future in the private sector.
 
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teddytennisfan

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CRAIG MURRAY -- former British Ambassador - and the person who received the LEAKS From a disgruntled DNC insider
and handed them to WIKILEAKS...

"
Obama has been a severe disappointment to all progressive thinkers in virtually every possible way.

He now goes out of power with absolutely no grace and in a storm of delusion and deceit.




The very pettiness of Obama’s tongue out to Putin – minor sanctions and expelling some diplomatic families – itself shows that Obama is lying about the pretext.

By refusing to retaliate,
Russia has shown the kind of polish

that eludes Obama
as he takes his empty charisma and presentational skills into a no doubt lucrative future in the private sector.
 

teddytennisfan

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RUSSIAN DUMA parliament - speaker :

"WHAT THIS MAN displays is AGONY...
and it is not the agony of even a merely lame duck loser --
but the AGONY of A DEAD thing. RIP".
 

teddytennisfan

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strategic-culture.org
Obama’s Failed Presidency
or-38414.jpg

I’m a former lifelong Democrat, stating here a clear and incontestable fact: Barack Obama is a failed President.

It’s true not just because of the sad realities such as that «Top Ex-White House Economist Admits 94 % Of All New Jobs Under Obama Were Part-Time» — or, as the economists Alan Krueger and Lawrence Katz wrote in the original of that study: «94 percent of the net employment growth in the U.S. economy from 2005 to 2015 appears to have occurred in alternative work arrangements». («Alternative work arrangements» referred there to Americans who were involuntarily working only part-time jobs — they simply couldn’t find full-time, though that’s what they wanted.) In other words: Obama’s failure isn’t just because of America’s increasingly sales-clerk, and burger-flipping, workforce.

And Obama’s failure is also not just because «Poverty Rose In 96 % Of U.S. House Districts, During Obama’s Presidency». (However, that reality turned out to be decisive in Hillary Clinton’s loss to Donald Trump on November 8th, as Nate Cohn pointed out in The New York Times on December 23rd, headlining, «How the Obama Coalition Crumbled, Leaving an Opening for Trump». Hillary was running on Obama’s poor record.)

Obama’s failure is also because of other important reasons. Among them is the uncounted thousands of people who were killed in, and the uncounted millions of people who became refugees from, the places where Obama (or else his installed regimes) bombed and caused the residents to either die or flee.

George W. Bush’s destructions of Iraq and even Afghanistan were now bei
ng followed by the destructions of Libya by Obama and Sarkozy, and of Syria by Obama and Saud and Thani and Erdogan, who armed the tens of thousands of jihadists and sent them into Syria to overthrow and replace Assad — and Bush’s destructions were followed also by Obama’s keeping in power the barbaric junta-regime that replaced the democratically elected Honduran Presiden Manuel Zelaya on 28 June 2009 shortly after Obama entered the White House (and this junta-regime, in turn, caused Honduras’s murder-rate to soar 50% to become the world’s highest, which then caused hundreds of thousands of Hondurans to flee and become undocumented U.S. immigrants, against which Donald Trump campaigned).

The Obama regime has thus created far more misery outside America, than inside it.
Failures such as those didn’t cost Hillary Clinton many (if any) votes (because most voters didn’t even know about these foreign-affairs matters), but those failures were actually even bigger than Obama’s failures in purely domestic U.S. policy matters (which voters do know about). Trump campaigned against ‘illegal immigrants’, but he never even called attention to those people’s fleeing the hells that the U.S. regime had created in not only Honduras but earlier in Guatemala and El Salvador — coups and U.S.-trained death squads.

In noting Obama’s failures, I’m not a Republican; I’m no one who is condemning Obama for his allegedly being a ‘Marxist' ‘Muslim’, or some other imaginary distraction from the reality (a reality which is too Republican for Republicans to be able to criticize — so, they’ve insteadignored that reality, and cited fake ‘reasons’ against him, including ‘death panels’ and other fabrications, which Republicans then forgot about after their fraudulent allegations against him became clear, to all but insane people, as being just Republican lies).

Obama is a failure not because he wasn’t sufficiently conservative or ‘Christian' (as Republicans had constantly accused him of having been), but instead because he wasn’t sufficiently progressive (nowhere close to being a progressive) — and, in many ways, he was actually far more conservative than any of his duplicitous campaign-rhetoric had pretended him to be.

He’s an extraordinarily gifted liar
— he was phenomenally successful at that.


And I am not blaming Obama for congressional Republicans’ having been more obsessed with making him be a failed President, than they were interested in making America be a successful nation.

Republicans lie at least as much as he does, just not nearly as skillfully. (They especially can’t feign compassion as skillfully as he.)


This article thus does not blame him for what the overt Republicans were doing to cripple the little good he had actually tried to achieve — such as closing Guantanamo. It’s only about Obama’s failure.

Obama’s failure was all his own — it’s not because of the good things that Republicans had blocked him from doing;

it is instead because of the horrible things (such as his failed TPP, TTIP and TISA trade-treaties, and his successful 2011 killing of Gaddafi, and 2014 coup in Ukraine) that were central to his actual agenda

— a conservative, even reactionary, agenda, which favored the interests of the hundreds of billionaires who control U.S.-based international corporations, above the interests of the 300+ million American people, whom the U.S. President is supposed to be serving.


I voted for Barack Obama both times, because both of his opponents («Bomb bomb bomb Iran» McCain in 2008, and «#1 geopolitical foe» Romney in 2012) were clearly determined to focus America’s enormous military expenditures away from exterminating the jihadists and their Saudi funders, toward instead conquering Iran (McCain) and Russia (Romney), and also because Republicans — throughout at least the period extending from 1910 to 2010 — consistently had, in fact, produced a record of far less success with the U.S. economy, than did Democrats, and especially because neither McCain nor Romney had repudiated the very worst President in U.S. history (at least prior to Obama) and his atrocious record of lies and needless bloodshed and invasions: George W. Bush — Bush’s Party instead reaffirmed that monstrous President.

And, consequently, I never expected Barack Obama to turn out to have been, quite possibly, even a worse President than Bush. Nobody expected that — except Republicans, for whom Bush wasn’t bad enough to satisfy them (and certainly not bad enough for them to apologize for — so, they did not apologize for him).

Here, then, is Obama’s astounding record of failure:

«From a Democracy to a Plutocracy»

«Understanding President Obama’s Strategy to Force Cutting Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid»

«Obama Finally Lays His Cards on the Table»

«Barack Obama Is Now Completing His Long-Held Plan to Subvert the Democratic Party»

«Obama: ‘I Don’t Care About the Public’s Welfare’».

As that last one documented, the Obama ‘Justice’ Department scored an all-time low number both of financial institution fraud prosecutions, and of white-collar-crime prosecutions. Obama came into power immediately after an economic crash that was loaded especially with financial-institution frauds. He protected the banksters.

So, financial-executive-fraud prosecutions didn’t soar, like they should have; instead they plunged. Like Obama told the Wall Street bigs, near the start of his regime, on 27 March 2009, in private, inside the White House: «My administration is the only thing between you and the pitchforks. … I’m not out there to go after you. I’m protecting you… I’m going to shield you». And that’s what he did.

And, on 20 September 2016, Dave Johnson of the Campaign for America’s Future, headlined «Banks Used Low Wages, Job Insecurity To Force Employees To Commit Fraud», so there was no way that the employees could keep their jobs except to do the crimes that they were being virtually forced by their bosses to do.

The criminality was actually at the very top — where Obama had promised «I’m protecting you». So, the TARP’s Inspector General urged, on 26 October 2016 (since the President was refusing to prosecute those people), «that Congress remove the insulation around Wall Street CEOs and other high-level officials by requiring the CEO, CFO and certain other senior executives to sign an annual certification that they have conducted due diligence within their organization and can certify that that there is no criminal conduct or civil fraud in their organization».

The Special Inspector General of TARP, Christy Goldsmith Romero, was proposing this, as being the way to make prosecutions, of these top-level fraud-executives, so easy that the Obama Administration’s claims — that there was no top-level fraud that could be prosecuted — would be an even more blatant, absurdly false, lie, than it had been.

If this country were Ukraine, or even Russia, then Americans (trained by decades of a CIA-controlled ‘free press’) would say «Oh, of course those countries are corrupt, but America isn’t like that». But, at least under Barack Obama, ‘we’ were that. This was America — and ‘our’ President was protecting the elite fraudsters, instead of prosecuting them.

Nonetheless, anyone who would say that the American people are not better off now than they were at the end of Bush’s disastrous Presidency would be either misinformed or lying, because there’s lots of data showing that, finally, eight years after Bush, Americans are better off than they were at the end of Bush’s miserable eight years (even though not yet better off than Americans were prior to Bush’s 2007-2008 crash). And the Administration published on December 15th its record of ‘successes’ «The 2017 Economic Report of the President» which was real but not adjusted for the fact that Obama came into office at the pit of the economic crash, which means that such ‘successes’ are almost inevitable, hardly a credit to Obama.

But yet, the reality stands, that the Obama economic recovery was the weakest in the entire post-World-War-II period. Plus, the federal debt doubled on his watch, even while, as that Economic Report mentioned only in passing: «The United States has seen a faster increase in inequality in recent decades than any of the major advanced economies, and despite the historic progress made over the last eight years, the level of U.S. inequality remains high». Normally, after an economic crash, economic inequality reduces; but under Obama it remained at or near its pre-crash high.

It was an economic record (and an invasion and coup record) of which any Republican President could justifiably have been proud (since conservatives favor inequality, a caste system) — but no Democrat could (except fake ones — such as Obama and the Clintons).
 

teddytennisfan

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Putin vs. Obama: Pictorial Comparisons
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Red Square
1/14/2014, 1:45 pm
Cube_Hand.gif

Given that presidential hopefuls are already gearing up for the 2016 election, we'd like to remind you to vote for Vladimir Putin in the Democratic primaries. Any way you look at it, Putin is still cooler than Obama and more experienced than Hillary.

To this effect, we collected, edited, and formatted different versions of pictorial Putin-Obama comparisons that are being circulated on the Internet, bringing them to one easily accessible infographic:

Obama_Putin_Differences.jpg


UPDATE:

In order to help toughen President Obama's image on the international arena, the White House released photographs of a shirtless, muscular U.S. President engaged in various manly activities.

Manly Obama pictures released to counter shirtless Putin




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Capt. Commie
1/14/2014, 1:58 pm
18436_1320965892.jpg

Most excellent comparison Comrade Red Square. If only Putin would be more like Dear Leader, the world would be a much better place.



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Khruelchev
1/14/2014, 2:20 pm
4000.jpg

Comrades, it troubles me that someone is more manly that glorious leader. That is, until I remember that Michelle is that man. We can be assured Vlad the Perforator is now double-teamed by this most excellent party approved, and manly, combo.



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StimulusMaximus
1/14/2014, 2:42 pm
Detroit-Defaults.jpg

Thank goodness he was re-elected to continue this glorious transformation!

28729





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Red Walrus
1/14/2014, 10:06 pm
32069_1365298199.jpg

file.php
file.php




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ThePeoplesComrade
1/15/2014, 3:30 am
3921_1316187538.jpg

IMAGE
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Anyer Marx
1/15/2014, 9:36 am
29977_1355311452.jpg

Yea, but can Putin high-kick like a Radio City Rockette? NO!

28742





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RedDiaperette
1/15/2014, 10:48 am
41380_1378144733.jpg

And note how he has thoroughly subdued large desk:

file.php





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Comrade 9
1/15/2014, 12:13 pm
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file.php




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Putin's Mistress
1/15/2014, 2:47 pm
PutinsMistress-0020302c-080x080.gif

Obama-With-Fig-Leaf--Putin-With-Modesty-Leaf-0002aAa-600x396.jpg


Obama is a flaccid leader, Putin has a stiff spine, if I may say so euphemistically. Assad knows. The Iranians know.

I should know -- I'm Putin's Mistress.

--Putin's Mistress

INTERRUPTION--

--No you're not -- I AM:


SpyMasterAnnaChapmanAvatar-080x080.jpg


Don't you read The People's Cube or Esquire Magazine? And I know far more than you know, but if I were to tell you, then I'd have to shoot you (or have Pootie Poo do it for me).

--Spymaster Anna Chapman.



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Captain Craptek
1/15/2014, 7:05 pm
31784_1483309380.jpg

Yes, yes...But no one can do the Teleprompter Head-Spin like Dear Leader!


28750





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Red Walrus
1/15/2014, 11:35 pm
32069_1365298199.jpg

file.php




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Red Square
1/16/2014, 1:32 am
Cube_Hand.gif

This reminds me of our earlier pictorial comparisons:

Reagan, Bush, and Obama: A Story in Three Pictures

Reagan_Bush_Obama.jpg




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Comrade 9
1/16/2014, 12:18 pm
3463.gif

file.php




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Red Walrus
1/16/2014, 1:04 pm
32069_1365298199.jpg

file.php




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Red Square
2/19/2014, 11:59 pm
Cube_Hand.gif

UPDATE:

Allen West just posted our "Putin vs. Obama" pictorial comparison on his website and Facebook page.

I wrote this comment: "Thanks for the glorious ushanka tip, Comrade Colonel! I will transmit this to Vladimir."

But I don't think he'll see it - there are over 1,500 comments on his FB post already... Plus 13,000 likes and 4,500 shares.

http://allenbwest.com/2014/02/putin-vs-obama/

29327



When we met with Allen West last year, he could neither confirm nor deny that he was reading The People's Cube. Now we know.

Here is Colonel West with Mrs. Red Square and the People's Cube at CPAC 2013.

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Federberg

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^I have to say I'm encouraged @Moxie, this shows that it was all just campaign rhetoric. I didn't like the way he campaigned but if he's actually going to implement solid policies then let's give him a chance to do so. I particularly liked his tweets on the whole ethics debacle yesterday, and now the legislators are quietly shelving it. Good on him!
 
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teddytennisfan

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just to remind MOXIE -- who is addr3essing me -- after DEMANDING that i should not address her....

I NEVER liked TRUMP -- to me BOTH democrats and republicans are two sides of the SAME american hubristic "we own the world" imperial totalitarian ''country'' pretending to be a 'democracy".

my postings about ''i bomb ya" is to show what a HOLLOW man he is and democrats are...

republicans are the ''in your face" -- democrats are the ''behind your back".

same thing.

TRUMP WILL have his TURN.
 

mrzz

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Actually, @Moxie, I think the only poster who actually supported Trump was Cali. A lot of posters spent a lot of time debating (and criticizing) Clinton, but I would guess just because that were the direction the discussion went. Most of us probably do not support neither one nor the other. (if there is any sense to non Americans to take side on this...)

And now we have @Federberg clearly jumping ship. These banking people... (insert your favorite emoticons here).
 
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Federberg

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Actually, @Moxie, I think the only poster who actually supported Trump was Cali. A lot of posters spent a lot of time debating (and criticizing) Clinton, but I would guess just because that were the direction the discussion went. Most of us probably do not support neither one nor the other. (if there is any sense to non Americans to take side on this...)

And now we have @Federberg clearly jumping ship. These banking people... (insert your favorite emoticons here).

Lol! :lol6: First of all, not jumping ship. I was never on the Clinton ship, I was more of a never Trumper! But... and we bankers are a pragmatic lot... now he's here, there's nothing we can do about it. So let's try to make an omelette out of all the broken eggs. To be honest, I think there's a fair chance he could get himself impeached and you won't find me crying about it. But we have to take the emotions out of it and see what he's going to do. This is the real world after all
 
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teddytennisfan

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You have officially jumped the shark with the above, Teddy.

Now, back to grown-up discussion: The National Review has something to say. For those of you reasonable types who thought you could like Trump, how are you feeling now?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443251/donald-trump-abandons-movement-campaign-promises



MOXIE talking abotu grown-up discussion is like a toddler playing mommy and daddy.

it is better to go for moxie to tennis and talk about which of the known -- therapeutic exempted DOPED players are going to break their own records in 2017 -- at least THAT is an open secret everyone just likes to pretend is about ''holy, pure'' sports.
 

teddytennisfan

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HUGE DEBATE...

note:

BINNEY -- former NSA official -- is THE Original designer of the NSA architecture itself and therefore speaks from real authority about how the system actually works.
watch
 
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