US Politics Thread

[shawnbm]

While I agree with you, about fines and probation. However, what Bragg brought was not a "new thing." Existing law. And it's been tried and convicted this way before, though not often. It's the underlying motivation for the crime which makes it a felony...buying the suppression of information from the voting public, a federal crime, and then fiddling the books to disguise the money, (misdemeanor, elevated by the previous.)

If we want to go about peeling that onion across-the-board, than you would be able to convict a lot of politicians over the decades. Politics is all about keeping secret personal indiscretions or little things here and there covered up or hidden so that they can succeed in politics. It is been done forever and ever. It is only a serious thing that can get you into trouble--like perjury in a legal proceeding to save yourself from civil liability or being an insurrectionist. In the modern era it is hard to get away with because of constant surveillance and the worldwide web, but I'm convinced that hundreds of federal and state politicians, if not more, have done things similar to what he did and no one even thought about that rising to the level of a crime or decided to waste judicial resources on going after someone who misstates something on a financial document that is given to a lender.

Does Pres. Biden wish to win the election? If he does, this should lead him to put intense pressure on the governor of New York to pardon his opponent. He would win a lot of votes doing that. But I don't think he will do that, since he pushed and lauded Bragg for getting into the position to file this in the first place. This is absolutely nothing, and frankly I think it will be overturned on appeal. When to what Pres. Ford did with respect to Pres. Nixon – – a far more significant and serious series of wrongs than what we see with respect to Stormy and the hiding of accounting entries.

 

[shawnbm]

These are class E felonies in the state of NY. Trump is a first time offender and will NOT be sentence to jail time for his "white collar" crime. He will loose his right to vote in the state of Florida and cannot carry a firearm but he still has the US Secret service detailing him everywhere he goes. He CAN'T pardon himself because these are felonies at the state level.

The charges in Georgia where he is on trial for trying to reverse the election results and attacking democracy is a higher level class charge.

The Georgia charges are more serious, but also much more difficult to prove. Mens rea is always tough when you have no direct evidence, only circumstantial and inferential.

 

[Federberg]

Because the amount of innocent ppl killed in Gaza is proportionately infinitely worse. Ukraine and the west were warned to stop expanding NATO around Russia and wouldn't listen. Ukraine were told to reject the peace deal by Boris Johnson as Biden's puppet. They brought this on themselves. Zelenskyy also asked for a war on an interview with Trump. That's not genocide in Ukraine.

not quite sure where you're getting your information from. Ukraine has been at war with Russia since 2014. It is not a part of NATO. I really don't know how what Israel is doing worse. The Russians have killed, raped and kidnapped a magnitude more people than anything Israel has done. But I guess we live in a world where people are so entrenched in their positions I don't really have any hope of convincing you of the facts

 

[the AntiPusher]

The Georgia charges are more serious, but also much more difficult to prove. Mens rea is always tough when you have no direct evidence, only circumstantial and inferential.

Shawn, I don't know if it's more difficult to prove because they have the evidence ( the phone call and all the other details that lead to the indictments..) look at all the indited individuals especially Rudy..plus look at the ones who has been turned or flipped to get a plea deal. It may not be as solid as the hush money trial but it's pretty solid. Really depends on the judge.

 

[the AntiPusher]

If we want to go about peeling that onion across-the-board, than you would be able to convict a lot of politicians over the decades. Politics is all about keeping secret personal indiscretions or little things here and there covered up or hidden so that they can succeed in politics. It is been done forever and ever. It is only a serious thing that can get you into trouble--like perjury in a legal proceeding to save yourself from civil liability or being an insurrectionist. In the modern era it is hard to get away with because of constant surveillance and the worldwide web, but I'm convinced that hundreds of federal and state politicians, if not more, have done things similar to what he did and no one even thought about that rising to the level of a crime or decided to waste judicial resources on going after someone who misstates something on a financial document that is given to a lender.

Does Pres. Biden wish to win the election? If he does, this should lead him to put intense pressure on the governor of New York to pardon his opponent. He would win a lot of votes doing that. But I don't think he will do that, since he pushed and lauded Bragg for getting into the position to file this in the first place. This is absolutely nothing, and frankly I think it will be overturned on appeal. When to what Pres. Ford did with respect to Pres. Nixon – – a far more significant and serious series of wrongs than what we see with respect to Stormy and the hiding of accounting entries.

There's no way Biden is going to intervene in state politics especially to pardon a 34 Felonies convicted Trump to get a few extra votes..most folks has already made their minds up about these two aged and flawed dinosaurs.

 

[Fiero425]

The Georgia charges are more serious, but also much more difficult to prove. Mens rea is always tough when you have no direct evidence, only circumstantial and inferential.

WTF are you talking about? No direct evidence? Didn't Trump call down to GA. personally begging for help getting 11+ K votes? Am I having a senior moment & only believe in my head this man was soliciting an illegal act from the AG? IMO, this is like pleading "not guilty" w/ video showing him shooting someone!

 

[shawnbm]

I recall it well--I do not believe Trump meant it literally, but, rather, that he wanted everything looked at as he believed there was evidence of wrongdoing--and that video that went around at the time had a number of his supporters questioning what was going on in that heavily Democrat county that was captured on a video. He talks a lot of crap sometimes--it is not meant to be taken literally. So, a jury has to decide what his true intent was. Was there coercion to back up a criminal intent; i.e., I won't do this or that unless you fabricate votes in my favor as I have demanded? I am unaware of that. He lost the election and thought it was rigged before it even began. That much we do know.

 

[Moxie]

If we want to go about peeling that onion across-the-board, than you would be able to convict a lot of politicians over the decades. Politics is all about keeping secret personal indiscretions or little things here and there covered up or hidden so that they can succeed in politics. It is been done forever and ever. It is only a serious thing that can get you into trouble--like perjury in a legal proceeding to save yourself from civil liability or being an insurrectionist. In the modern era it is hard to get away with because of constant surveillance and the worldwide web, but I'm convinced that hundreds of federal and state politicians, if not more, have done things similar to what he did and no one even thought about that rising to the level of a crime or decided to waste judicial resources on going after someone who misstates something on a financial document that is given to a lender.

I think this is a weak argument: "everyone does it." It's one thing to try to paint yourself in a favorable light, and another to do illegal things to cover up real sins. And yes, some politicians get have gotten a pass from the press on ignoring the infidelities, back in the old days. And some have gotten away with completely corrupt behavior. Others have gone to jail for it.

I've mentioned John Edwards before, in this context, I think, so forgive me, but it's fairly recent, and pretty similar. Edwards used a $1M in campaign finance money to hush up his affair. The National Enquirerer brought it out...the affair. (Interesting that they colluded, instead, with Trump.) It came out later about where the money came from, and he was prosecuted for it, but acquitted. (In NC.) Still, it ended his political career. And rightly so. The affair came out in 2008, the trial was in 2012. The campaign finance violations came out around 2010. (He ran for President in 2008, but Obama had already won the nomination by the time the affair came out.)

So, this really is just Trump being singled out.

Does Pres. Biden wish to win the election? If he does, this should lead him to put intense pressure on the governor of New York to pardon his opponent. He would win a lot of votes doing that. But I don't think he will do that, since he pushed and lauded Bragg for getting into the position to file this in the first place. This is absolutely nothing, and frankly I think it will be overturned on appeal. When to what Pres. Ford did with respect to Pres. Nixon – – a far more significant and serious series of wrongs than what we see with respect to Stormy and the hiding of accounting entries.

It's an interesting notion to have Biden encourage a pardon of Trump. Take this particular case out of play in during the election. Anyway, what Ford did was pretty outrageous, but we lived in a time when they thought that prosecuting a former President would be too divisive and dangerous. That forcing him to resign was enough. (That's what Ford thought, is all I'm saying.) But even you agree that it wasn't right.

You can think that this case will be overturned on appeal, but the jury came back pretty quickly and decisively this time. And the judge and prosecutors were pretty careful in this one, so I don't think they'll find a technicality.

 

[Front242]

not quite sure where you're getting your information from. Ukraine has been at war with Russia since 2014. It is not a part of NATO. I really don't know how what Israel is doing worse. The Russians have killed, raped and kidnapped a magnitude more people than anything Israel has done. But I guess we live in a world where people are so entrenched in their positions I don't really have any hope of convincing you of the facts

No you don't have a hope of convincing me. I'm well aware this started in 2014 and not Feb 2022. The Ukrainians killed thousands of Russians before the media ever became interested with their virtue signalling. The Ukrainians are no better than the Russians. Watch some of the videos you won't see on mainstream media. It's laughable how the west have brainwashed people into thinking Russia are the biggest war criminals on the planet. Note the common denominator with all these "wars" and conflicts who are to blame for all the escalations and unnecessary deaths: USA. It's always been this way.

 

[Moxie]

I recall it well--I do not believe Trump meant it literally, but, rather, that he wanted everything looked at as he believed there was evidence of wrongdoing--and that video that went around at the time had a number of his supporters questioning what was going on in that heavily Democrat county that was captured on a video. He talks a lot of crap sometimes--it is not meant to be taken literally. So, a jury has to decide what his true intent was. Was there coercion to back up a criminal intent; i.e., I won't do this or that unless you fabricate votes in my favor as I have demanded? I am unaware of that. He lost the election and thought it was rigged before it even began. That much we do know.

Trump is a master of being vague enough for plausible deniability. He can make something sound like a threat, but then just say, "No, I only meant that you should look into possible impropriety." But just saying "he talks a lot of crap sometimes...not to be taken literally." Like when he says he'll be "dictator for a day?" That's excuse-making on his behalf, if you ask me.

Anyway, the NY jury had to decide that they could tell what his "intent" was, and they managed. I guess it depends on what kind of a case GA builds. And if Trump's lawyers can build a better counter-narrative than they did in NY, where they didn't present one at all. They just relied on "Cohen's a liar and a crook." Basically, the qualities that Trump liked him for in the first place. Remember he revered, and employed, Roy Cohn.

 

[Fiero425]

I recall it well--I do not believe Trump meant it literally, but, rather, that he wanted everything looked at as he believed there was evidence of wrongdoing--and that video that went around at the time had a number of his supporters questioning what was going on in that heavily Democrat county that was captured on a video. He talks a lot of crap sometimes--it is not meant to be taken literally. So, a jury has to decide what his true intent was. Was there coercion to back up a criminal intent; i.e., I won't do this or that unless you fabricate votes in my favor as I have demanded? I am unaware of that. He lost the election and thought it was rigged before it even began. That much we do know.

SEEK serious help! When did you start drinking the "Kool-Aid?"

 

[the AntiPusher]

I recall it well--I do not believe Trump meant it literally, but, rather, that he wanted everything looked at as he believed there was evidence of wrongdoing--and that video that went around at the time had a number of his supporters questioning what was going on in that heavily Democrat county that was captured on a video. He talks a lot of crap sometimes--it is not meant to be taken literally. So, a jury has to decide what his true intent was. Was there coercion to back up a criminal intent; i.e., I won't do this or that unless you fabricate votes in my favor as I have demanded? I am unaware of that. He lost the election and thought it was rigged before it even began. That much we do know.

Obviously you're a Trump supporter so I will respect you but your post is begging to be attacked..
Shawn, there are over 14 people indicted because he didn't "mean it literally". That's is a bit "RICH" Sir .

 

[Moxie]

Something that is very disturbing about Republicans and the right-wing media is the lack of respect for the system. I know that horse left the barn years ago, but it's still disturbing. And I know that the likes of MTG and Matt Goetz and JD Vance are full-on trying to tear the system down. But Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, and 2nd in line of succession to the Presidency, called it, " a shameful day in American history....This was a purely political exercise, not a legal one.”

This statement denigrates the jury in that trial, who by all accounts paid good attention, and came from various backgrounds, including one that said they got all of their news from Truth Social. It also makes a mockery of any notion that there actually IS a functioning system of justice in this country. Those comments are not merely partisan, they undermine our system of laws.

Right-wing media has been complaining of a "two-tiered system of justice," of late. Which is ironic, because the left, poor people, and people of color have been complaining of it, well, since forever. Donald Trump is rich, white, powerful, male and can afford the best lawyers money can buy. He also got a pretty heavy pass for his behavior in and out of court. He is the beneficiary of a two-tiered system of justice, not its victim. Did he have to rely on a public defender? Did he have to stay in jail because he couldn't make bail? Did he have to take a plea deal because his public defender is overworked, or because he got pressured by the DA? Did he get sent to Ricker's for acting out in court? He got a LOT of help, and even a lot of lead from the judge.

Here's what worries me: for those on the right, if you lose the election, you call the electoral process corrupt or "rigged." If Donald Trump loses a court case, it's not because the preponderance of the evidence was against him, it's because the judicial system is "rigged" against him. There is no more belief in the notion that the People have had their say, whether the electorate, or a jury of one's peers. If you don't like the answer, just call it a cheat. This is an undermining of our basic systems. I have been reluctant to buy the "hair on fire" rhetoric from the Dems that our whole democracy is at stake in this election. Until now. The Republicans, top down, seem absolutely willing to undermine it, say it means nothing, to tear it down.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Something that is very disturbing about Republicans and the right-wing media is the lack of respect for the system. I know that horse left the barn years ago, but it's still disturbing. And I know that the likes of MTG and Matt Goetz and JD Vance are full-on trying to tear the system down. But Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, and 2nd in line of succession to the Presidency, called it, " a shameful day in American history....This was a purely political exercise, not a legal one.”

This statement denigrates the jury in that trial, who by all accounts paid good attention, and came from various backgrounds, including one that said they got all of their news from Truth Social. It also makes a mockery of any notion that there actually IS a functioning system of justice in this country. Those comments are not merely partisan, they undermine our system of laws.

Right-wing media has been complaining of a "two-tiered system of justice," of late. Which is ironic, because the left, poor people, and people of color have been complaining of it, well, since forever. Donald Trump is rich, white, powerful, male and can afford the best lawyers money can buy. He also got a pretty heavy pass for his behavior in and out of court. He is the beneficiary of a two-tiered system of justice, not its victim. Did he have to rely on a public defender? Did he have to stay in jail because he couldn't make bail? Did he have to take a plea deal because his public defender is overworked, or because he got pressured by the DA? Did he get sent to Ricker's for acting out in court? He got a LOT of help, and even a lot of lead from the judge.

Here's what worries me: for those on the right, if you lose the election, you call the electoral process corrupt or "rigged." If Donald Trump loses a court case, it's not because the preponderance of the evidence was against him, it's because the judicial system is "rigged" against him. There is no more belief in the notion that the People have had their say, whether the electorate, or a jury of one's peers. If you don't like the answer, just call it a cheat. This is an undermining of our basic systems. I have been reluctant to buy the "hair on fire" rhetoric from the Dems that our whole democracy is at stake in this election. Until now. The Republicans, top down, seem absolutely willing to undermine it, say it means nothing, to tear it down.

Excellent post Moxie. The bottom line Trump was judged by a jury of his peers in Manhattan. It wasn't Harlem, the Bronx , Baltimore or Washington DC.yet the clown is still unhappy.

Years ago I said Trump was a dictator in waiting.. which may have seemed harsh but look at his power..No need to rehash is pletha of incidents yet I don't recall the right wing initiative sole purpose is to tear down the fabric of democracy. During the administrations of Ronald Reagan, George Bush 1 and 2 there was NEVER the call to tear it down. In essence they're saying get rid of the two party system and let's the US become Russia 2.0. I Always wondered how Rubio,Tim Scott Nikki Haley and the thin Indian guy who ran for president feel white privilege is gonna benefit them? Let's see if Tim Scott gets invited to any extreme far right rallies. Everyone who got in bed with Trump (Jeff Sessions, Kevin McCarthy, Ryan P the former head of the GOP, Mike Pence and others have gotten their careers totally "screwed" by Trump very well. I guess everyone but Stormy Daniels . Most likely it's gonna be an Insurrection 2.0 in January 25. Yet they still come to kiss the ring of their Master.

 

[Federberg]

I know it's Bill Maher, and I know he triggers some people. But please watch this. I think he's nailed an important point about the younger generation...

 

[Federberg]

 

[Moxie]

Following on to my above post, I saw Rep. Tom Cotton (R. Arkansas) on Meet the Press this morning. (He's reportedly on the shortlist for the VP nomination, though says he hasn't talked to Trump about it.) He whinged on about how unfair the Trump's trial was, how the judge was "compromised." (Apparently he donated $20 to the Biden campaign when he ran in 2020.) But, when asked if he would deem the judgement fair if Trump were to be acquitted on appeal, he refused to answer. He knew he was painted into a corner, but this is what they've done to themselves. The judicial system is only fair when it gives you the outcome you want. The elections are only fair when you get the win.

 

[Fiero425]

Following on to my above post, I saw Rep. Tom Cotton (R. Arkansas) on Meet the Press this morning. (He's reportedly on the shortlist for the VP nomination, though says he hasn't talked to Trump about it.) He whinged on about how unfair the Trump's trial was, how the judge was "compromised." (Apparently he donated $20 to the Biden campaign when he ran in 2020.) But, when asked if he would deem the judgement fair if Trump were to be acquitted on appeal, he refused to answer. He knew he was painted into a corner, but this is what they've done to themselves. The judicial system is only fair when it gives you the outcome you want. The elections are only fair when you get the win.

What a Fk'n embarrassment! This guy Cotton & all the rest being shills for Trump can't look any worse! They're like children pointing fingers feverishly at others to allow Trump to play the victim! "What about Hillary, what about Hunter, that judge and his daughter?" OMG, I hate these people so much! Unfortunately they're allowed to act like idiots b/c that's what their constituents seem to appreciate & want! Democracy is on the wane w/ them! I think they're looking forward to Trump's dictatorship!

 

[Moxie]

What a Fk'n embarrassment! This guy Cotton & all the rest being shills for Trump can't look any worse! They're like children pointing fingers feverishly at others to allow Trump to play the victim! "What about Hillary, what about Hunter, that judge and his daughter?" OMG, I hate these people so much! Unfortunately they're allowed to act like idiots b/c that's what their constituents seem to appreciate & want! Democracy is on the wane w/ them! I think they're looking forward to Trump's dictatorship!

They are such sheep, at this point, that they may actually be looking for a dictator. In effect, they have one. He says jump, and they say, "How high?" He doesn't even hold office now, and he controls them. They pretend not to care about his outrageous claims. I think it's a lot of head in the sand. Which is being generous.

 

[Moxie]

If find this frightening. Trump at a UFC event in full macho mode. This is Mussolini stuff, the extravagant machismo.