US Politics Thread

[Moxie]

I’m not doing that. I’m saying what I think about you - I’m saying that politically you’re tribal to the extent that you never seem to critique the left unfavourably. You argue their arguments for them, using their talking points. You’ve even been given a chance for self reflection with regards to the Democrats and why others might hate them and vote for Trump, and you’ve passed on it, several times. I think we discuss politics in good faith when we actually are open to praising the other side for what they get right, and criticising our own for their failings…

Well, you kind of are. You've turned a question about a biased video/a question about Biden's competency once again into a diatribe on my politics, and a mandate in terms of how I should respond on this thread. Apparently, I am not saying the secret word for entry into this conversation. Which is ironic, given that I'm one of the few Americans on this thread. No matter what I try to talk about, I get a brick wall from you. You should consider your own easy virtue on bias. Anyway, can we considered that I've heard all of your complaints and move on to addressing questions at hand?

Does that video that Front posted really make you believe that Biden is incompetent?

 

[Kieran]

Well, you kind of are. You've turned a question about a biased video/a question about Biden's competency once again into a diatribe on my politics, and a mandate in terms of how I should respond on this thread. Apparently, I am not saying the secret word for entry into this conversation. Which is ironic, given that I'm one of the few Americans on this thread. No matter what I try to talk about, I get a brick wall from you. You should consider your own easy virtue on bias. Anyway, can we considered that I've heard all of your complaints and move on to addressing questions at hand?

Does that video that Front posted really make you believe that Biden is incompetent?

Yeah, I’m biased. I’m biased against people who aren’t issues-based in their politics. I’m biased against the tribes. I’m biased against people who declare “I’m X Party,” and then close their mind to the ideas that Y Party have, that might be useful. I’m biased against the right, and I’m biased against the left. They only create and widen the divisions in society, and then get each tribe blaming the other tribe, senselessly.

It’s such a waste.

That video didn’t convince me of anything. I’ve seen other videos too. I think in a more sane world Joe Biden would be retired and spend the rest of his days in peace. I don’t think he’s up to five more years as American president. But there’s a terrible dearth of talent at the top of American politics, and that’s not good either…

 

[britbox]

A question to Americans...

What unites Americans? What does it mean to be an American? I'm thinking along the lines of common bond rather than anything relating to a perceived outside threat. (and by American, I mean those of the United States in this context)

 

[Moxie]

Yeah, I’m biased. I’m biased against people who aren’t issues-based in their politics. I’m biased against the tribes. I’m biased against the right, and I’m biased against the left. They only create and widen the divisions in society, and then get each tribe blaming the other tribe, senselessly.

And you're also biased in that you think people are tribal when they might not be, so be cautious there, ok?

That video didn’t convince me of anything. I’ve seen other videos too. I think in a more sane world Joe Biden would be retired and spend the rest of his days in peace. I don’t think he’s up to five more years as American president. But there’s a terrible dearth of talent at the top of American politics, and that’s not good either…

Personally, I think Biden is pretty fit for his age. I'm not sure about 4 more years. I think he could well be competent, but I, like many Americans, wish that we had a different scenario for our upcoming presidential elections.

As has been explained here before, I think, Joe Biden swept into the 2020 elections when it looked like no one else could defeat Trump. I think we all believed that he'd be a one-term president. Who knew that Kamala Harris could be made to be so repellent? The other thing that no one really expected is that Trump would run again. Grover Cleveland was the only president ever to win non-consecutive presidencies, and that was in 1892. I'm not sure who has ever even tried since. Surely not in living memory. Basically, when a President loses, as an incumbent, they don't try again. They've been rejected by the electorate. But Trump has his trump card: the election was "stolen"...he wasn't rejected. And some people still believe that. So we're in unchartered waters. This is why Biden has to run again.

 

[Front242]

How do I know that Obama's not really running the country and that Biden is clearly not? Because it's unlikely. Biden is the President, and there is an assumption that he's not a puppet President. We haven't gone all the way into a Banana Republic just yet. You can throw out there that Obama is pulling the strings, but without even a sniff of tangible evidence, you're being the bad part of the internet. Anyone can say anything. I can say that the Russians have dirt on Trump, and he's Putin's tool, but I wouldn't say that, because I have nothing to back that up. And I know that you think Biden is incompetent. You've made that quite clear. But that means also that you think our system of government doesn't work, which I rather resent. I have explained above that there are provisions for presidential incapacity.

Resent all you want. The truth hurts. He IS incompetent. He IS a laughing stock and he's a warmongering pos which makes things 10,000 times worse. Forget the damn provisions, he shouldn't be anywhere near the white house. Your system of government also clearly DOES NOT work. There's nothing democratic about trying to get the main opposition put in jail or not allowing him to compete for presidency. It's the polar opposite of democratic and disgraceful...

 

[Front242]

And you're also biased in that you think people are tribal when they might not be, so be cautious there, ok?

Personally, I think Biden is pretty fit for his age. I'm not sure about 4 more years. I think he could well be competent, but I, like many Americans, wish that we had a different scenario for our upcoming presidential elections.

As has been explained here before, I think, Joe Biden swept into the 2020 elections when it looked like no one else could defeat Trump. I think we all believed that he'd be a one-term president. Who knew that Kamala Harris could be made to be so repellent? The other thing that no one really expected is that Trump would run again. Grover Cleveland was the only president ever to win non-consecutive presidencies, and that was in 1892. I'm not sure who has ever even tried since. Surely not in living memory. Basically, when a President loses, as an incumbent, they don't try again. They've been rejected by the electorate. But Trump has his trump card: the election was "stolen"...he wasn't rejected. And some people still believe that. So we're in unchartered waters. This is why Biden has to run again.

Keep telling yourself he was rejected by the electorate and check out this great quote.

 

[Moxie]

A question to Americans...

What unites Americans? What does it mean to be an American? I'm thinking along the lines of common bond rather than anything relating to a perceived outside threat. (and by American, I mean those of the United States in this context)

That's a big question, or two big questions. I will answer it, if you promise to answer what those answers would be from the outside, in your opinion.

I think you asked them in the wrong order. Also, I'm not sure they can be separated. I'll give you an answer, but I think they blend together.

I think we feel very proud of the fact that we broke our colonial bonds and established a democracy. We identify with our Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Call it corny, but we do believe in that. This is belief in the American ideal. We're not there, but we always believe that we can get there. I do think that belief unifies us and defines us.

I think we've long believed in our Constitution and that it holds up. (Recent shakiness aside.)

We also identify as a nation of immigrants. That might sound complicated right now, but we are, and we know it.

I would say we self-define as a strong country. We believe, whether true or not, anymore, that we help hold up democracy in the world.

One thing that unites us is adversity. I know you said not "perceived" threat, but in actual threat, like Pearl Harbor, or 9/11, we were all in together. The last time we felt ourselves to be "One Nation, Indivisible," was after 9/11, IMO.

It's a start at an answer. I'd love it if @tented would kick in.

PS: We could also talk about "The American Dream," which we share, but it's complicated, and flawed. Different from the American Ideal. For another day.

 

[Moxie]

@Front242 Why does it even matter to you? He's not your President. I could litter this thread with comparable Trump ones, but why do you care?

 

[Front242]

@Front242 Why does it even matter to you? He's not your President. I could litter this thread with comparable Trump ones, but why do you care?

Of course it matters to me. It matters to the whole planet. This clown is bringing us closer and closer to WW3 every day. I'm no fan of Trump either but, given the choice between those 2, it's a no brainer to go for the guy who is not a warmonger and under whom the current conflicts/wars if people want to call them that would not be happening and as a result we also wouldn't be seeing the catastrophic cost of living we currently have.

Ps, litter the thread with clips of Trump all you want. He's many things but senile he is not. I was getting the msg across to you (or at least trying to) that Biden clearly is unfit to be president and is in major cognitive decline and it's very obvious.

 

[britbox]

That's a big question, or two big questions. I will answer it, if you promise to answer what those answers would be from the outside, in your opinion.

I think you asked them in the wrong order. Also, I'm not sure they can be separated. I'll give you an answer, but I think they blend together.

I think we feel very proud of the fact that we broke our colonial bonds and established a democracy. We identify with our Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Call it corny, but we do believe in that. This is belief in the American ideal. We're not there, but we always believe that we can get there. I do think that belief unifies us and defines us.

I think we've long believed in our Constitution and that it holds up. (Recent shakiness aside.)

We also identify as a nation of immigrants. That might sound complicated right now, but we are, and we know it.

I would say we self-define as a strong country. We believe, whether true or not, anymore, that we help hold up democracy in the world.

One thing that unites us is adversity. I know you said not "perceived" threat, but in actual threat, like Pearl Harbor, or 9/11, we were all in together. The last time we felt ourselves to be "One Nation, Indivisible," was after 9/11, IMO.

It's a start at an answer. I'd love it if @tented would kick in.

From the outside looking in, I believe your constitution is truly excellent (I'm in the middle of a study course on this particular subject) and gives hope to those who wish to break free from tyranny.

However, I think malignant forces undermined this a long time ago, and the most of the US are essentially living an illusion of freedom. The founding fathers knew this and came up with the best system possible to prevent it, but even that was shortlived.

The other part missing in the modern era seems to be that of the definition and understanding of the creator - defined in the declaration as Nature's God and the Laws of Nature. Have you ever look into the Laws of Nature?

 

[Moxie]

Of course it matters to me. It matters to the whole planet. This clown is bringing us closer and closer to WW3 every day.

In what way?

I'm no fan of Trump either but, given the choice between those 2, it's a no brainer to go for the guy who is not a warmonger

Certainly Trump is isolationist, but tell me how Biden is warmongering?

and under whom the current conflicts/wars if people want to call them that would not be happening and as a result we also wouldn't be seeing the catastrophic cost of living we currently have.

You're talking about two different things. Is Biden responsible for Ukraine or Gaza?

Also, what is really responsible for the increase in the cost of living? (Not sure how it's going in Ireland, but things have gotten a lot better in the US, in the last couple of months.) I'm not sure your cost of living is related to mine.

Ps, litter the thread with clips of Trump all you want. He's many things but senile he is not. I was getting the msg across to you (or at least trying to) that Biden clearly is unfit to be president and is in major cognitive decline and it's very obvious.

I'm not that cheap, and I have more respect for folks here that they can do their own homework. Or they've seen it already. Biden is not in the cognitive decline that you insist upon, IMO. You are relying upon memes that satisfy what you already want to believe. If I'm looking at an 81 year old Biden versus a 77 year old Trump, and gauging their relative fitness, Biden comes off better. Biden is slender, tall and erect. He's also a life-long politician who knows how to get things done. Trump is fat, eats poorly, is a heart-attack waiting to happening, he doesn't read, and he's incredibly divisive. He's also said he'll be a dictator for "a day." Wait until that day extends. You pull in for who you prefer, but I think buying into memes on the internet about how dotty Biden is is just what you want to hear. Likewise that Obama is really in charge, or whatever you're looking for. The truth is that the US is doing ok under Biden, and even a lot better than it was.

If you don't like Biden's policies, that's your right. I'm still interested to hear how he's such a warmonger.

 

[Moxie]

From the outside looking in, I believe your constitution is truly excellent (I'm in the middle of a study course on this particular subject) and gives hope to those who wish to break free from tyranny.

However, I think malignant forces undermined this a long time ago, and the most of the US are essentially living an illusion of freedom. The founding fathers knew this and came up with the best system possible to prevent it, but even that was shortlived.

I'd like you to illuminate on this. As I said, it's a big question, and vagaries aren't interesting.

The other part missing in the modern era seems to be that of the definition and understanding of the creator - defined in the declaration as Nature's God and the Laws of Nature. Have you ever look into the Laws of Nature?

Personally, I think it's anachronistic. What do you think it means?

 

[britbox]

I'd like you to illuminate on this. As I said, it's a big question, and vagaries aren't interesting.

Personally, I think it's anachronistic. What do you think it means?

The Federal Reserve is a good starting point. Nearly every President who tried to introduce a national greenback was assassinated. There is nothing Federal about the Federal Reserve that is truly Federal. It's a private company owned by private banks who print money and lend it to the government of the day at interest aka Ursury.

"I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe." - Lincoln

"The money power preys on the nation in times of peace, and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Lincoln

---

The Laws of Nature demonstrate how the principles of the world work. I showed you one of them previously (Law of Vibration) - you promised to look at it but never got back. That demonstrates creation, transmutation and destruction. This stuff is hard to understand as we've been programmed to have an attention span of minutes, decreasing to seconds. But here is a five minute one that shouldn't be too much trouble.



Most of the founding fathers were masons - the higher degrees are well aware of the principles. It's how so few control so many.

 

[Moxie]

The Federal Reserve is a good starting point. Nearly every President who tried to introduce a national greenback was assassinated. There is nothing Federal about the Federal Reserve that is truly Federal. It's a private company owned by private banks who print money and lend it to the government of the day at interest aka Ursury.

"I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe." - Lincoln

"The money power preys on the nation in times of peace, and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes." - Lincoln

---

The Laws of Nature demonstrate how the principles of the world work. I showed you one of them previously (Law of Vibration) - you promised to look at it but never got back. That demonstrates creation, transmutation and destruction. This stuff is hard to understand as we've been programmed to have an attention span of minutes, decreasing to seconds. But here is a five minute one that shouldn't be too much trouble.



Most of the founding fathers were masons - the higher degrees are well aware of the principles. It's how so few control so many.

Oh, crikey, here we go. Forget I asked. I thought we were going to have a conversation about your perception of the US from the outside perspective, not a rehash of your conspiracy theories. I guess I walked into that one.

 

[britbox]

Oh, crikey, here we go. Forget I asked. I thought we were going to have a conversation about your perception of the US from the outside perspective.

It is an outside perspective, and it's written in your Declaration. And the quotes are from Lincoln. You said you weren't interested in vague generalisations, so got more detail... and then a red mist appears where you won't look at the expanded detail. It's why I rarely engage with you these days, as you consistently demand more detail and then consistently take leave when it's presented.

 

[tented]

A question to Americans...

What unites Americans? What does it mean to be an American? I'm thinking along the lines of common bond rather than anything relating to a perceived outside threat. (and by American, I mean those of the United States in this context)

My gut reaction was “nothing“ because too often it seems that way. I think @Moxie answered well by citing the Constitution. While we differ in interpretations of certain sections, I’ve never known anyone (at least not personally) who has argued for its destruction.

But beyond that? Maybe nothing.

By far the most unity I’ve ever experienced was in the wake of 9/11. It was a short-lived feeling, but a kind of peacefulness amid the tragedy.

While Moxie is correct that we’re the proverbial melting pot, that very nature is so divisive. There is a level of identity-schizophrenia within the US. The person who wears an American flag T-shirt, is the same person who, when asked their nationality, will say they are English, or Irish, or Italian, or Eastern European, or whatever. They will *not* say they’re American, even though their grandparents were born here. We’re a country of non-American Americans.

 

[Kieran]

Personally, I think Biden is pretty fit for his age. I'm not sure about 4 more years. I think he could well be competent, but I, like many Americans, wish that we had a different scenario for our upcoming presidential elections.

As has been explained here before, I think, Joe Biden swept into the 2020 elections when it looked like no one else could defeat Trump. I think we all believed that he'd be a one-term president. Who knew that Kamala Harris could be so repellent?

I just changed that last line there for you, regarding Harris. A lot of people knew she’d could be so repellent. It was pointed out in the debates. And it is a worry that if Biden can’t last the pace, and I agree that it looks unlikely, you’ll get Claudine Gay again, but this time as president of your country.

Biden was never a good idea for president until he was the only hope to stop Trump, which says it all. In some sense he’s a one issue candidate, and his mandate is clear. I think he should focus hard on getting a palatable VP, because that’s going to be a meaningful battle ground in November..

 

[tented]

One of my brothers is a Republican, so there's that. He usually watches Fox and CNN, though more Fox, and we watch together when I visit, which is often. It can get heated, but we always bring it back down. And we do talk politics. I will say that he's been less inspired by the Republicans in power, given a lot of their reactions (or lack thereof) to the Jan. 6th attack on the Capitol, and also the continued insistence that the election was not legitimate.

Lol, yes, things can get heated if my father and I go too deeply into politics. I was pleasantly surprised a few months ago when I was visiting: a news story about Trump was on CNN, and my father said, “He thinks he can get away with anything, you know?” Ugh … yeah!

Trump was never the right fit for him anyway. I distinctly remember him telling me in 2016 he kept shifting his support from one Republican candidate to another, hoping like crazy the final candidate wouldn’t be Trump. Republicans are turning against Trump, albeit extremely slowly. If nothing else, they’re seeing his effect on other Republican candidates/races around the country. He has endorsed so many losers at this point, another factor my father has mentioned.

Obviously, living in NYC and working in the film business, I'm not really surrounded by Republicans in my daily life, but I do have a lot of old friends, and a whole branch of my family who are Republicans, and some evangelicals (family) who range from conservative to very conservative. I discuss politics with some of them. I have one great friend with whom one of the foundations of our friendship is that we love discussing politics together, and she fully liked and backed Trump. There have always been things we've disagreed on, and more so in the past few years, but we always listen to each other's side, with respect and every attempt at understanding where it's coming from.

That's a sample. But I don't live in the bubble that maybe you guys think I do in terms of opinions that are different from mine, and those are coming from people that I love and respect...people that I definitely can't feel "morally superior" to.

No, I know NYC is not the purely Democratic city some would believe, otherwise how would Giuliani and Bloomberg have been mayors?

 

[Kieran]

Of course it matters to me. It matters to the whole planet. This clown is bringing us closer and closer to WW3 every day. I'm no fan of Trump either but, given the choice between those 2, it's a no brainer to go for the guy who is not a warmonger and under whom the current conflicts/wars if people want to call them that would not be happening and as a result we also wouldn't be seeing the catastrophic cost of living we currently have.

Ps, litter the thread with clips of Trump all you want. He's many things but senile he is not. I was getting the msg across to you (or at least trying to) that Biden clearly is unfit to be president and is in major cognitive decline and it's very obvious.

It’s always the case that we rely on America for protection in wars, and this hasn’t changed. I wouldn’t criticise Biden at all in this regard..

 

[tented]

One of my brothers is a Republican, so there's that. He usually watches Fox and CNN, though more Fox, and we watch together when I visit, which is often. It can get heated, but we always bring it back down. And we do talk politics. I will say that he's been less inspired by the Republicans in power, given a lot of their reactions (or lack thereof) to the Jan. 6th attack on the Capitol, and also the continued insistence that the election was not legitimate.

Obviously, living in NYC and working in the film business, I'm not really surrounded by Republicans in my daily life, but I do have a lot of old friends, and a whole branch of my family who are Republicans, and some evangelicals (family) who range from conservative to very conservative. I discuss politics with some of them. I have one great friend with whom one of the foundations of our friendship is that we love discussing politics together, and she fully liked and backed Trump. There have always been things we've disagreed on, and more so in the past few years, but we always listen to each other's side, with respect and every attempt at understanding where it's coming from.

That's a sample. But I don't live in the bubble that maybe you guys think I do in terms of opinions that are different from mine, and those are coming from people that I love and respect...people that I definitely can't feel "morally superior" to.

One more point I’ll make: so as not to come across as a “Never Republican-er“ I have also told my father that during the Trump Administration I missed George W. — completely true! I would have taken him or any other Republican as President those four years — even Ted Cruz.