US Politics Thread

[britbox]

Based on that observation, should we discount the Nuremberg trials as well? That's the inevitable path based on your opinion...

No it's not. I'm saying if the court actually served the purpose it was created for then you'd have people on both sides being tried rather than just the side who "lost" a particular war.

That doesn't mean the Germans should be exonerated... but I don't recall anybody in that court facing charges after two atomic bombs were dropped on civilian populations either.

It's basically a facility to imprison leaders of a losing army... nothing more, nothing less.

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[Federberg]

No it's not. I'm saying if the court actually served the purpose it was created for then you'd have people on both sides being tried rather than just the side who "lost" a particular war.

That doesn't mean the Germans should be exonerated... but I don't recall anybody in that court facing charges after two atomic bombs were dropped on civilian populations either.

It's basically a facility to imprison leaders of a losing army... nothing more, nothing less.

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I don't have a problem with that point. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were atrocities. But answer me this... are you really saying that there was no genocide in Bosnia? If you are, where do you get the evidence for that assertion?

 

[britbox]

So are you saying that Serbs did not ethnically cleanse Bosnians? Again I'm asking.. In the West we've seen war crimes tribunals for people like Karadic

Well, it wasn't a one way street for sure... Any civil war involves horrific actions.

I don't have a problem with that point. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were atrocities. But answer me this... are you really saying that there was no genocide in Bosnia? If you are, where do you get the evidence for that assertion?

I'm not, no. You're missing my point. I'm saying only those on the losing side ever face charges...

 

[Federberg]

Well, it wasn't a one way street for sure... Any civil war involves horrific actions.


I'm not, no. You're missing my point. I'm saying only those on the losing side ever face charges...

Ok... so are you saying that there was genocide committed against the Serbs? I'm fairly sure that the Nazi's with Croatian collusion were guilty of atrocities against the Serbs in World War 2, but my question is about the Yugoslav civil war. Are you saying that there were atrocities on a similar scale committed against the Serbs?

 

[britbox]

No, I'm not saying that.

 

[teddytennisfan]

No it's not. I'm saying if the court actually served the purpose it was created for then you'd have people on both sides being tried rather than just the side who "lost" a particular war.

That doesn't mean the Germans should be exonerated... but I don't recall anybody in that court facing charges after two atomic bombs were dropped on civilian populations either.

It's basically a facility to imprison leaders of a losing army... nothing more, nothing less.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

the thing about it - in addition to the fact that the ''winners'' get to set up the 'rules' -- which is inevitable in the aftermath of a war...

is in the case of the nuremberg trials -- while it was CORRECT to put on trial the NAZIS - and fascists -- it also covered up or put aside the OTHER facts that LED to the aggression by the germans...

which is this:

that PRIOR to hitler's ''anschluss" to austria - where he began his central europe conquest - and austria basically gave up without a fight..france was taken in under 2 weeks, in fact just days, and so forth...

PRIOR to this -- STALIN of russia - REPEATEDLY warned about his intent -- but against russia...

and asked churchill and the allied nations to forestall the coming intent...

he was IGNORED . after his repeated appeals to create an alliance around germany to force hitler to abandon the - by-then - well-known possibility of his going expansionist.

THIS is the NEVER-MENTIONED part of western ''story -telling" about hitler's ''betrayal" and launching a drive into russia...

in that the RIBBENTROP-MOLOTOV ''non-aggression" pact signed by russia and germany (before hitler turned around and discarded it) -
was OFFERED BY RUSSIA with germany since the WEST would not listen to russia's warnings...therefore russia had no choice but to simply have a ''one-on-one" treaty ...which of course we know hitler violated and went ahead to invade russia.

THIS PART of the story is what POLAND blames RUSSIA "for sacrificing poland" (and continues to blame russia until today) ...

but what is also NOT covered in ''war crimes complicity" that LED to HITLER'S european conquest is this:

POLAND ITSELF -- before hitler expanded to france and to russia --
in the mid-1930's HAD A TREATY with HITLER of also ''non-aggression" BUT that allowed hitler to EXPAND TO CZECHOSLOVAKIA AND UKRAINE AND BELARUS

in which POLAND WOULD GET A PIECE of the pie.

in other words - POLAND was as GUILTY in the beginning of being a FASCIST state interested in expansionism WITH germany as its ''ally" ...

but TODAY -- =poland only cries ''victim only" . and poland was COMPLICIT in having hitler ''pass through poland" on teh way to conquering ''eurasia" -- meaning RUSSIA...

which poland HISTORICALLY considers as "should be polish ruled".

do people understand the OTHER unmentioned ''war crimes"?

and TODAY which country is literally the MOST RUSSOPHOBIC of them all?

NONE OTHER THAN POLAND -- dreaming about some ''past glory polish empire" -- that was nothign of the sort. but uses BOTH COLLABORATION with fascist powers (such as with hitler or kiev ukrainians today when it is convenient) OR by turns playing VICTIM

after getting what it deserved for playing backstabber to 'the glory of noble poland".

that's a LITTLE-understood part of the 'story" .

that's why when PUTIN was INVITED by the polish president YEARS AGO to warsaw for a public ceremony to honor fallen SOVIET soldiers in liberating poland from the nazis (a NATURAL consequence since russia OF COURSE had to pass OVER polish land to get to berlin as they drove the germans back to their land and destroy their armies) -

the polish president had LAID A TRAP to publicly humiliate his GUEST -- by declaring that RUSSIA was also RESPONSIBLE FOR war crimes against the polish people...

at which Putin Snapped right back:

"I was hoping that as your guest we would honor the fallen from fascism -- but if people want to talk about war crimes -- let us not forget that poland took chunks of CZECHOSLOVAKIA AND UKRAINE AND BELARUS IN ALLIANCE with Germany"...


OOOPPPS......

TODAY -- practically ALL fallen GERMAN NAZI soldiers IN russia are HONORED with cemeteries and monuments -- carefully taken care of by locals and municipalities...

same as in CRIMEA -- to the fallen ITALIAN fascists and german nazis there lying at rest...it surprised many europena local politicians especially from italy at finding that out in their visits...

RUSSIAN AND SOVIET fallen in POLAND -- their monuments are being systematically torn down...

although TWO polish towns REFUSED to obey the national directives...

 

[Federberg]

No, I'm not saying that.

In that case I'm rather confused about your intervention yesterday. If ethnic cleansing was happening then NATO was morally obligated to become involved in that war. That doesn't absolve the West from any crimes they may have committed elsewhere. And to my thinking blaming HRC for that stretches logic past breaking point

 

[teddytennisfan]

i will add that the warnings of russia and repeated calls for cooperation to destroy TERRORISTS TODAY are SIMILARLY IGNORED

by the SAME ''ALLIED POWERS" -- USA, UK, FRANCE --

THAT before the expansion of hitler -- they ALSO ignored Stalin's calls for cooperation against the rising threat of FASCISM from hitler and mussolini.

and the SAME as in world war 2 -- it was basically RUSSIA AND THE SOVIETS that DESTROYED hitler ONCE he entered the USSR territory --

by the time the ALLIES gave russia the ''lend-lease" program with military armaments -- by around 1943 -- russia ALREADY destroyed hitler's greatest armies in russia and had already been driving germans BACK to berlin and thus reached berlin

and it was at THAT point -- that the allies -- churchill above all -- that telegrammed stalin to ''slow down" to give the allies a CHANCE TO ''CONQUER" AND ''liberate" normandy , italy and denmark , netherlands, etc...

STALIN GAVE them their wish even if -- HAD THE RUSSIANS chosen -- they could have EASILY reached the atlantic in just 3 more days.

today -- PUTIN - russia HAS AGAIN been repeated;uy calling for cooperative effort to destroy TERRORISTS...

it would in fact be a SIMPLE matter to do - nd ISIL would be QUICKLY erased from the face of the earth -- wherever they try to run...even in central asia, northwest china, indonesia, where-ever...

BUT WHICH COUNTRIES AGAIN REFUSE to cooperate LIKE they did in world war 2?

that's right -- the SAME WESTERN GANG that pretend they uphold 'human rights and rule of law and justice and freedom for all".

WHILE RUSSIA basically is fighting the terrorists THEY created -

just as russia and soviets defended from and fought and destroyed the NAZIS and fascists

CHURCHILL AND BRITISH ELITES actually SHARED sentiments WITH in the lead-up to the war...THINKING that by letting hitler UNLEASH his power TOWARDS russia

it would so weaken both germany and russia -- the ''ALLIES" WOULD walk in and grab the ''victor's rewards"

THAT is the real story of world war TWO continuing TODAY.

 

[teddytennisfan]

In that case I'm rather confused about your intervention yesterday. If ethnic cleansing was happening then NATO was morally obligated to become involved in that war. That doesn't absolve the West from any crimes they may have committed elsewhere. And to my thinking blaming HRC for that stretches logic past breaking point

BLAMING HILLARY FOR NUDGING BILLIE TO BOMB SERBIA ...IS CORRECT.


as the former PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA put it -- RUDD -- in SOCHI, VALDAI CLUB discussion 2 weeks ago:

"INDIVIDUAL LEADERS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE...their, our decisions DO affect how society is shaped".

same in BUSH ordering the invasion of IRAQ...
Same as HILLARY telling her husband "'do it" -- and so BOMBS fall on the heads of serbians.

conclusion -- WAR CRIME.

 

[Federberg]

BLAMING HILLARY FOR NUDGING BILLIE TO BOMB SERBIA ...IS CORRECT.


as the former PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA put it -- RUDD -- in SOCHI, VALDAI CLUB discussion 2 weeks ago:

"INDIVIDUAL LEADERS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE...their, our decisions DO affect how society is shaped".

same in BUSH ordering the invasion of IRAQ...
Same as HILLARY telling her husband "'do it" -- and so BOMBS fall on the heads of serbians.

conclusion -- WAR CRIME.

Now you're just raving

 

[teddytennisfan]

I AM extremely happy that the young other lesser-talked about german talent STRUFF has defeated WAWRINKA who i do not like,.

i am nasty - i know. but i like who i like and don't.

 

[teddytennisfan]

Now you're just raving

NO -- i am stating something that is CORRECT.

a lawyer that tells his client to go ahead and steal and they'll find a way to do it ''legally" -- is a THIEF like his client and BOTH should be jailed.

SAME as hillary telling her husband "'do it" -- bomb serbians. over there

thousands of miles away -- under the 'legal cover" of 'NATO membership".

if your wife tells you to ''do it-get the money because no on'es looking and i want my new pearl necklace" -- your wife is as much the criminal as you are.

 

[Moxie]

Ok... so are you saying that there was genocide committed against the Serbs? I'm fairly sure that the Nazi's with Croatian collusion were guilty of atrocities against the Serbs in World War 2, but my question is about the Yugoslav civil war. Are you saying that there were atrocities on a similar scale committed against the Serbs?

In fairness, it was a civil war, and many appalling things happened from all sides. However, the Serbs were the ones in control in the former Yugoslavia, and the atrocities they committed were on the larger scale. Genocide was not committed against the Serbs. They were the ruling group.

Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War is a link that talks numbers, and also parses the definition of "genocide" v. "ethnic cleansing" (and "murderous ethnic cleansing." Creepy, but apparently it's a thing.)

But there is something in what britbox says, which is that the losers are punished, the winners absolved. As is often said, "History is written by the winners." No war leaves anyone's hands clean. WWII was perhaps the last obvious war where one side was so much more in the right, and still there are the atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's all just gotten messier after that.

 

[Federberg]

NO -- i am stating something that is CORRECT.

a lawyer that tells his client to go ahead and steal and they'll find a way to do it ''legally" -- is a THIEF like his client and BOTH should be jailed.

SAME as hillary telling her husband "'do it" -- bomb serbians. over there

thousands of miles away -- under the 'legal cover" of 'NATO membership".

if your wife tells you to ''do it-get the money because no on'es looking and i want my new pearl necklace" -- your wife is as much the criminal as you are.

You have proof that HRC did that? I doubt it. Bill was dragged into that war by Blair, that's a fact. But why am I mentioning facts, you don't seem to want to have any sort of relationship with reality

 

[Federberg]

In fairness, it was a civil war, and many appalling things happened from all sides. However, the Serbs were the ones in control in the former Yugoslavia, and the atrocities they committed were on the larger scale. Genocide was not committed against the Serbs. They were the ruling group.

Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War is a link that talks numbers, and also parses the definition of "genocide" v. "ethnic cleansing" (and "murderous ethnic cleansing." Creepy, but apparently it's a thing.)

But there is something in what britbox says, which is that the losers are punished, the winners absolved. As is often said, "History is written by the winners." No war leaves anyone's hands clean. WWII was perhaps the last obvious war where one side was so much more in the right, and still there are the atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's all just gotten messier after that.

Can't argue with that. Let's not forget about what happened in a haste to be objective though. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Moxie]

Can't argue with that. Let's not forget about what happened in a haste to be objective though. That's all I'm saying.

That's true. There were actual crimes committed and prosecuted. That there are other faults doesn't excuse them.

 

[teddytennisfan]

it was , moxie, a 'civil war' -- in INTENTION by outside powers - namely NATO.

it was germany that was the ''trigger" -- directed by USA ''behind nato" - (we already know how germany is basically USA territory -- evne their journalists admit that and ask any german -- ) -

by ''privately" ''guaranteeing croatia and bosnia support if they declare independence from yugoslavia"...

and so - in their provinces of croatia and bosnia -- where there were serbians -- they enaged in atrocities against serbians to remove them from their homes,etc...and declare them ''non-citizens' of the self-decalred ''independent bosnia and croatia and herzegovina" --

exactly as it was intended to happen by orders from germany by orders through nato from washington.

this STANDARD american strategy all over the world moxie.

THAT wsa how VIETNAM became divided...the usa ''giving guarantees" to ''south vietnam" which NEVER really existed until the USA put puppets and replaced them one after another as convenience dictated...and the vietnam war of defense was really about the vietnamese taking their country BACK AS A UNIFIED country

from the ''civil war" that the USA and france created by ''dividing" the country with ''support " for what were in fact ILLEGITIMATE westeren supported ''democratic" governments.

the same pattern as in yugoslavia...

so -- when people -- brought up in ''western stories" - including wikipedia -- say ''civil war" -- BE SURE to understand that it is CONCOCTED by the west...

that's what they are NOW trying to foment in syria...which was a UNIFIED country -- for centuries really --

these PHOENICIANS from ancient times who always comprised of various tribes and religions but are legendary as the great merchants and traders of ancient times and the meeting place of cultures

east, south, north, west...

and the west createst a terrorist presence - then brands it as 'civil war' and then blames it on ''the bad leaders" -- and then says "assad must go"

just like they said "milosevic must go, the serbians must go".

and then -- ''no fly zones to protect the poor suffering ones"

and then regime change, carving up the country into smaller units -- easier to rule

under a NEW ''big umbrella''

WHICH They can NATO AND EU -- which take orders from washington.

nice nifty arrangement ain't it?

 

[teddytennisfan]

You have proof that HRC did that? I doubt it. Bill was dragged into that war by Blair, that's a fact. But why am I mentioning facts, you don't seem to want to have any sort of relationship with reality

i don't PERSONALLY have proof of that..

you have to do your own reading -- and find the actual quotes...and she did. in reports it was she herself that confirmed it.

 

[Moxie]

i don't PERSONALLY have proof of that..

you have to do your own reading -- and find the actual quotes...and she did. in reports it was she herself that confirmed it.

No. If you claim a quote, you need to cite it. Otherwise, no one has to believe it, and we don't have to do our own research. You have to back it up, or back off of it.

 

[Moxie]

it was , moxie, a 'civil war' -- in INTENTION by outside powers - namely NATO.

it was germany that was the ''trigger" -- directed by USA ''behind nato" - (we already know how germany is basically USA territory -- evne their journalists admit that and ask any german -- ) -

by ''privately" ''guaranteeing croatia and bosnia support if they declare independence from yugoslavia"...

and so - in their provinces of croatia and bosnia -- where there were serbians -- they enaged in atrocities against serbians to remove them from their homes,etc...and declare them ''non-citizens' of the self-decalred ''independent bosnia and croatia and herzegovina" --

exactly as it was intended to happen by orders from germany by orders through nato from washington.

this STANDARD american strategy all over the world moxie.

THAT wsa how VIETNAM became divided...the usa ''giving guarantees" to ''south vietnam" which NEVER really existed until the USA put puppets and replaced them one after another as convenience dictated...and the vietnam war of defense was really about the vietnamese taking their country BACK AS A UNIFIED country

from the ''civil war" that the USA and france created by ''dividing" the country with ''support " for what were in fact ILLEGITIMATE westeren supported ''democratic" governments.

the same pattern as in yugoslavia...

so -- when people -- brought up in ''western stories" - including wikipedia -- say ''civil war" -- BE SURE to understand that it is CONCOCTED by the west...

that's what they are NOW trying to foment in syria...which was a UNIFIED country -- for centuries really --

these PHOENICIANS from ancient times who always comprised of various tribes and religions but are legendary as the great merchants and traders of ancient times and the meeting place of cultures

east, south, north, west...

and the west createst a terrorist presence - then brands it as 'civil war' and then blames it on ''the bad leaders" -- and then says "assad must go"

just like they said "milosevic must go, the serbians must go".

and then -- ''no fly zones to protect the poor suffering ones"

and then regime change, carving up the country into smaller units -- easier to rule

under a NEW ''big umbrella''

WHICH They can NATO AND EU -- which take orders from washington.

nice nifty arrangement ain't it?

Are you trying to say that it was not a civil war? That the former Yugoslavia was artificially broken up by outside forces? That seems like a tinfoil in your hat version. Remembering that no one gave two snaps about Yugoslavia before they started killing each other.