US Politics Thread

[britbox]

In that case I'm rather confused about your intervention yesterday. If ethnic cleansing was happening then NATO was morally obligated to become involved in that war. That doesn't absolve the West from any crimes they may have committed elsewhere. And to my thinking blaming HRC for that stretches logic past breaking point

Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide aren't one and the same. There's a wider scope to ethnic cleansing than just killing people.

 

[britbox]

In that case I'm rather confused about your intervention yesterday. If ethnic cleansing was happening then NATO was morally obligated to become involved in that war. That doesn't absolve the West from any crimes they may have committed elsewhere. And to my thinking blaming HRC for that stretches logic past breaking point

NATO have no moral obligations to get involved in any war outside of their member states regardless of ethnic cleansing... otherwise they'd be in a perpetual state of war all around the globe.

NATO's premise for getting involved was that the war was seen as a threat to regional stability.

 

[Moxie]

Ethnic Cleansing and Genocide aren't one and the same. There's a wider scope to ethnic cleansing than just killing people.

I hope I didn't start something ugly by mentioning that there is a difference. I don't think "ethnic cleansing" comes with a 'wider scope.' It's more about displacement than actual murder, by the definition that I offered you, but it's not without its murderous side. But let's not fool ourselves...it comes from a deeply racist/ethnicist place, which is already really bad. In the case of the Balkans wars, it did involve rape, murder, destruction of mosques...it's not SO different from genocide. I'm astonished that you're willing to parse the difference. You might want to re-think that.

 

[britbox]

I hope I didn't start something ugly by mentioning that there is a difference. I don't think "ethnic cleansing" comes with a 'wider scope.' It's more about displacement than actual murder, by the definition that I offered you, but it's not without its murderous side. But let's not fool ourselves...it comes from a deeply racist/ethnicist place, which is already really bad. In the case of the Balkans wars, it did involve rape, murder, destruction of mosques...it's not SO different from genocide. I'm astonished that you're willing to parse the difference. You might want to re-think that.

I think ethnic cleansing has a much wider scope than murder and rape. Displacing people through fear and the perceived threat of violence would also be included in my definition. War is very ugly as I'm sure you'll agree... rape, murder and destruction is part of it. It's part of every war unfortunately... certainly not limited to the Balkans. Show me a war where any of the above atrocities don't take place?

 

[Moxie]

I think ethnic cleansing has a much wider scope than murder and rape. Displacing people through fear and the perceived threat of violence would also be included in my definition. War is very ugly as I'm sure you'll agree... rape, murder and destruction is part of it. It's part of every war unfortunately... certainly not limited to the Balkans. Show me a war where any of the above atrocities don't take place?

I believe I said that already. And I don't think "ethnic cleansing" gets a pass, just because it falls short of the official definition of "genocide," especially when it involves murder and rape. And destruction of religious institutions. It's a pretty fine line, and I wouldn't personally defend it.

 

[britbox]

I believe I said that already. And I don't think "ethnic cleansing" gets a pass, just because it falls short of the official definition of "genocide," especially when it involves murder and rape. And destruction of religious institutions. It's a pretty fine line, and I wouldn't personally defend it.

I'm not defending it!

 

[Billie]

I believe I said that already. And I don't think "ethnic cleansing" gets a pass, just because it falls short of the official definition of "genocide," especially when it involves murder and rape. And destruction of religious institutions. It's a pretty fine line, and I wouldn't personally defend it.

So how about Kosovo then? I hope you saw that video that I posted about destruction of Serbian religious institutions? That is Hillary's personal cause, as she said it herself.

Ethnic groups in Kosovo
Year Albanians Serbs Others
1455 1 % 96 % 3 %
1871 32 % 64 % 4 %
1899 48 % 44 % 8 %
1921 69 % 26 % 15 %
1931 60 % 27 % 13 %
1948 68 % 24 % 8 %
1953 65 % 23 % 11 %
1961 67 % 23 % 9 %
1971 73 % 18 % 8 %
1981 77 % 13 % 9 %
1991 82 % 10 % 8 %
2000 88 % 7 % 5 %
2007 92 % 5 % 3 %

Genocide and ethnic cleansing?

 

[Billie]

This is the number of Serbs in Croatia throughout the years:

Year Serbs %
1900 548,302 17.35%
1910 564,214 16.60%
1921 584,058 16.94%
1931 636,518 16.81%
1948 543,795 14.47%
1953 588,411 15.01%
1961 624,956 15.02%
1971 626,789 14.16%
1981 531,502 11.55%
1991 581,663 12.16%
2001 201,631 4.54%
2011 186,633 4.36%

I wonder what happened to them!

 

[Billie]

In 1991 this was the percentage of population in Bosnia and Herzegovina:

Muslims 44 %
Serbs 32.5%
Croats 17%

Today
Muslims 51%
Serbs 31%
Croats 15%

 

[Moxie]

This is the number of Serbs in Croatia throughout the years:

Year Serbs %
1900 548,302 17.35%
1910 564,214 16.60%
1921 584,058 16.94%
1931 636,518 16.81%
1948 543,795 14.47%
1953 588,411 15.01%
1961 624,956 15.02%
1971 626,789 14.16%
1981 531,502 11.55%
1991 581,663 12.16%
2001 201,631 4.54%
2011 186,633 4.36%

I wonder what happened to them!

I find your stats difficult to understand without a narrative. Would you care to explain them? Also, I'd like a link to your idea that this is Hillary Clinton's personal cause. I think you over-rate the Balkans War in terms of international importance, or certainly in the personal narrative of either Clinton. I understand why it matters to you, but I have trouble seeing it as defining to either Bill or Hillary. You express your animosity towards Hillary in pure terms based on the NATO intervention in your home country. Where she would have had no official authority or sway. And, just because of that, you can find common ground with Trump? Even as a woman, while he's been vile to women, and even as an immigrant, even if not to this country, when he has been so unwelcoming? And even discounting the encouragement of white-supremacists to his camp? Can one personal issue be enough to let you forgive Trump so much?

 

[Billie]

In that case I'm rather confused about your intervention yesterday. If ethnic cleansing was happening then NATO was morally obligated to become involved in that war. That doesn't absolve the West from any crimes they may have committed elsewhere. And to my thinking blaming HRC for that stretches logic past breaking point

Where was ethnic cleansing happening? People lived in peace side by side since WW2 till the 90s. Everybody was equal, which is not what they wanted when they separated from Yugoslavia. Unless you think that 32% of people don't have any right and say so in their future.

 

[Moxie]

Where was ethnic cleansing happening? People lived in peace side by side since WW2 till the 90s. Everybody was equal, which is not what they wanted when they separated from Yugoslavia. Unless you think that 32% of people don't have any right and say so in their future.

So who is the "they" when they separated? Isn't that the key to the dissolution of Yugoslavia? It didn't just fall apart by accident. Surely someone was disgruntled. The Serbs were in control, so not them. Sure, why not 32% happy or complacent. That leaves 68% unhappy. I don't know what all went into it, but it was a civil war from within, was it not?

 

[Billie]

I find your stats difficult to understand without a narrative. Would you care to explain them? Also, I'd like a link to your idea that this is Hillary Clinton's personal cause. I think you over-rate the Balkans War in terms of international importance, or certainly in the personal narrative of either Clinton. I understand why it matters to you, but I have trouble seeing it as defining to either Bill or Hillary. You express your animosity towards Hillary in pure terms based on the NATO intervention in your home country. Where she would have had no official authority or sway. And, just because of that, you can find common ground with Trump? Even as a woman, while he's been vile to women, and even as an immigrant, even if not to this country, when he has been so unwelcoming? And even discounting the encouragement of white-supremacists to his camp? Can one personal issue be enough to let you forgive Trump so much?

Here you go, I posted a couple of these before but it seems that your memory is short.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kosovo...urce=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

 

[Moxie]

Here you go, I posted a couple of these before but it seems that your memory is short.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kosovo...urce=article_page&utm_medium=related_articles

It's not that my memory is short. It's very likely that I find that not a creditable source. A quick google search doesn't find it so reliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky
(Note the conspiracy theories and the connection to "global research.")

Try again with better sources. Also, I'd really like you to make a narrative out of those stats and tell me how the Serbs were so maligned in those wars, and who you believe started it.

 

[Billie]

So who is the "they" when they separated? Isn't that the key to the dissolution of Yugoslavia? It didn't just fall apart by accident. Surely someone was disgruntled. The Serbs were in control, so not them. Sure, why not 32% happy or complacent. That leaves 68% unhappy. I don't know what all went into it, but it was a civil war from within, was it not?

The key is that external factors wanted to dismantle and create chaos in that part of the world. Well Croats and Muslims lived in that kind of country for 50 years where everybody was equal, along with Serbs. But you know what, stir problems and feed nationalists, and this is what you get. It is sad that it happened at the end of 20th century. See how many Serbs now live in Croatia, you can easily confirm that on Wiki, if you don't believe me. Or how many Serbs live in Kosovo. It wasn't so easy to organize people and feed their nationalistic desires, but my gosh, to have our own country?? Do you even know that Croats and Muslims fought against each other in Bosnia? They were united only against Serbs.

I had to leave 3 places before coming to Serbia in 1991? My city which was 50-50 Serb and Muslim before WW2 and 30-60 % at the beginning of 1991, now doesn't even have 3% of Serbs remaining there. Many other cities that had other national majorities are the same. Where Serbs were majority it also happened, others were leaving. It happened on all 3 sides, but that is not what the narrative is.

We are talking about centuries of sensitive issues and problems with nationalities in this region and when Serb leaders pleaded with everybody to sit and discuss and stave off the rush and unwise decisions to proclaim these separate countries, in which one entity would not be equal, nobody cared. They told them it would be a bloody civil war, considering all past history between these nations. But did they care? Obviously not. What is worse International community doesn't even care about Bosnia, seeing how they are so poor and corrupt and there are constant problems. So many are remembering "good ol' days" when everything was better.

 

[Moxie]

The key is that external factors wanted to dismantle and create chaos in that part of the world. Well Croats and Muslims lived in that kind of country for 50 years where everybody was equal, along with Serbs. But you know what, stir problems and feed nationalists, and this is what you get. It is sad that it happened at the end of 20th century. See how many Serbs now live in Croatia, you can easily confirm that on Wiki, if you don't believe me. Or how many Serbs live in Kosovo. It wasn't so easy to organize people and feed their nationalistic desires, but my gosh, to have our own country?? Do you even know that Croats and Muslims fought against each other in Bosnia? They were united only against Serbs.

I had to leave 3 places before coming to Serbia in 1991? My city which was 50-50 Serb and Muslim before WW2 and 30-60 % at the beginning of 1991, now doesn't even have 3% of Serbs remaining there. Many other cities that had other national majorities are the same. Where Serbs were majority it also happened, others were leaving. It happened on all 3 sides, but that is not what the narrative is.

We are talking about centuries of sensitive issues and problems with nationalities in this region and when Serb leaders pleaded with everybody to sit and discuss and stave off the rush and unwise decisions to proclaim these separate countries, in which one entity would not be equal, nobody cared. They told them it would be a bloody civil war, considering all past history between these nations. But did they care? Obviously not. What is worse International community doesn't even care about Bosnia, seeing how they are so poor and corrupt and there are constant problems. So many are remembering "good ol' days" when everything was better.

You're munching around the edges. I still don't understand who you think made all of this genial live-and-let-live break up. You say "feed nationalists, and this is what you get." Who were the nationalists, and who fed them? What are these external factors you speak of, and what was their motivation. I'm not trying to be a pill. I'm trying to understand. You see it from the inside out. We see it from the way outside, and via the filter of our own governments' spin. But, seriously, Yugoslavia began to break apart before the West ever cared. So what happened? Be honest.

 

[Billie]

It's not that my memory is short. It's very likely that I find that not a creditable source. A quick google search doesn't find it so reliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky
(Note the conspiracy theories and the connection to "global research.")

Try again with better sources. Also, I'd really like you to make a narrative out of those stats and tell me how the Serbs were so maligned in those wars, and who you believe started it.

LOL You don't believe....who would you believe?

How about this one?

http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/18/e...ons-ties-to-suspected-human-organ-trafficker/

 

[Billie]

You're munching around the edges. I still don't understand who you think made all of this genial live-and-let-live break. You say "feed nationalists, and this is what you get." Who were the nationalists, and who fed them? I'm not trying to be a pill. I'm trying to understand. You see it from the inside out. We see it from the way outside, and the filter of our own governments' spin. But, seriously, Yugoslavia began to break apart before the West ever cared. So what happened? Be honest.

See that video about Jasenovac first. See the video I posted about Serbian churches and monasteries destroyed in Kosovo. It's all connected.

 

[teddytennisfan]

BARACK OBAMA:

" I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE THE MOST EXCEPTIONAL NATION ON EARTH".

HILLARY CLINTON:
"WE ARE GREAT BECAUSE WE ARE GOOD".

 

[teddytennisfan]

You're munching around the edges. I still don't understand who you think made all of this genial live-and-let-live break up. You say "feed nationalists, and this is what you get." Who were the nationalists, and who fed them? What are these external factors you speak of, and what was their motivation. I'm not trying to be a pill. I'm trying to understand. You see it from the inside out. We see it from the way outside, and via the filter of our own governments' spin. But, seriously, Yugoslavia began to break apart before the West ever cared. So what happened? Be honest.

THERE is a little item =- about SERBIA, moxie..if nothing else convinces you..

KOSOVO is a province of SERBIA - that is know...today ''albanian" by means of NATO bombing of serbia that forced kosovo - literally prying it away from serbia...

buit KOSOVO is like what KIEV in ukraine was to russia..

it is the very HEART of serbia itself...tht was invaded by foreigner albanians who were then ''legitimized" as an ''independent" ''state" supposedly ''oppressed by serbians"

in fact - it one of the very ROOTS of serbia itself. and that is serbia's own history that is being ERASED - literally by the west.

KOSOVO to serbians -- being taken away from them -- is like someone took away your own mother...

this is the same with KIEV in ukraine which was the original capital of Russia and then when russia opened up to the east -- they moved their capital to MOSCOW AFTER the russians there drove away the MONGOLS that had invaded russia which was already a state - and then they strengthened and built up the city of moscow - which was the seat of power that the MONGOLS used to rule russia for 300 or so years -- until they were driven out eventually...

so -- to RUSSIA today -- the fact that the USA -- as usual -- concocted a ''democracy" revolution - by supporting openly declared NAZI and FASCIST DESCENDANTS in ''western ukraine" (they are now the rulers and openly honor Hitler etc...) -

that was like Russia's own mother being taken away -- Kiev...

so there is CLEARLY a very INTENTIONAL malicious pattern here being applied by the USA behind NATO -

TO strike RIGHT at the HEART of the origins of the nations of SERBIA AND RUSSIA.

by implanting in their deepest roots --

KIEV for russia -- KOSOVO -pristina city for serbia ..

and HAMMER that heart of their countries...as the TWO slavic, orthodox founded countries that DEFY the ''westernization" of their peoples.
i mean -- that is TRULY vicious.

how would YOU like it if some country in the future came to GRAB washington DC. or boston...the sites of the ''birth" of the ''american nation" -- and declared them ''independent" -- and inserted PEOPLE that didn't belong THERE? IN ORDER to strike at your VERY SOUL and show you ''nah, nah, nah -- we are removing the most precious treasure you have -- the roots of your own identity and there is nothing you can do about it -- and we'll even put THUGS AND NAZIS AND TERRORISTS AND GUN-RUNNERS AND ORGAN SMUGGLERS as people in it!!"?