US Politics Thread

[calitennis127]

And any of the above negates my point how?

Lol.....I have to give it to you. No matter how dumb a thing you say (or ask in this case), you always do so with the conviction that you are somehow saying something profound. Well, allow me to turn this around on you: are you fucking serious?

It is clear from your dozens and dozens of posts on American foreign policy that you see American intervention across the world - and particularly the Middle East - as the result of a mix of American chauvinism, racism, callousness, covetousness, Islamophobia, cynicism, and a capitalist exploitative mentality to extract resources from vulnerable countries while allying with brutal regimes such as the one in Saudi Arabia.

Now you might be playing stupid in this case because I caught you on something that you clearly don't know about, but you undoubtedly attribute most of what I just enumerated to American conservatives. To be fair, you have criticized Obama and Hillary for their foreign policy (probably because of how they collectively fucked up Libya and Syria), but your comments on American society and culture all indicate that you fundamentally blame the excesses of American foreign policy on conservative right-wing attitudes. And in that, you are totally off-base.

The main religion of America today is not right-wing Christianity or some kind of right-wing nationalism. Rather, it is a secular ideology of global democracy rooted in the idea of equality. That has been the American religion since at least World War I. And that religion is what has caused the problems in the Middle East that you lament.

That not ONE US President has thought to himself: "hmmm, maybe killing thousands of innocents is a bad idea. I guess I gotta keep following those left-wing ideas" changes reality how?

Then you should love Trump. He ran in 2015-2016 on staying out of unnecessary wars such as those in Iraq and Libya, and as president he has backed up his talk by trying to withdraw from Syria on two separate occasions. That is part of why most people in Washington DC hate him. Most of the American political machine loves the wars that Trump opposes and that you say you oppose too.

So why are you siding with the CNN-New York Times crowd that favors interventionist foreign policy over Trump, who is hated by those people partially because of his noninterventionist foreign policy views?

Oh wait, I know the answer. It's because you're an anti-Trump bigot who is incapable of judging him with even the most remotely sober frame of mind. You can't forgive him for comments on immigration from Mexico and Islamic countries during the campaign, so you judge everything Trump-related with a rage-filled and hateful attitude. It's mainly about the social issues for you.

 

[calitennis127]

My favorite Cali trick ever, is when he's so cornered that he literally has nothing to say (I mean even you can't defend the bleach injection thing) he'll point out to some Democrat because...reasons?

Okay shithead.....look at the post you put up that I was responding to: "I truly wonder how can any self respecting human being see the below video and be like "Oh yeah. that's the man to lead us through the most crucial phase of the past few decades. He's also my candidate for 2020." "

YOU, not me, broached the topic of how someone could support Trump for 2020, which was nothing but a petty, stupid, and short-sighted question. There are dozens of reasons based on policy and performance that someone could support Trump, which is why Vernon Jones, a lifelong black Democrat, just endorsed him for president.

What you are doing - simply because you loathe Trump with all your being - is picking at one silly comment that has no bearing on anything and no consequences for anything to bash him. But there are dozens and dozens of intelligent and accurate statements Trump has made on a variety of issues - including on foreign policy - that you never draw attention to simply because you're an anti-Trump bigot. You are defining his competence by one remark and nothing else.

Would you like it if someone judged Nadal's career by the 2019 Australian Open final?

The irony here is that many of Trump's views on American foreign policy in recent decades (that it has been wasteful and destructive) are similar to yours, yet you can't bring yourself to give him the slightest credit for that. And it's simply because you're an anti-Trump bigot.

 

[calitennis127]

Data shows that the US Coronavirus may actually be far greater than initially thought:

U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported, C.D.C. Data Suggests (Published 2020)

In seven hard-hit states, total deaths are nearly 50 percent higher than normal, according to new C.D.C. statistics, suggesting that the virus has killed far more people than the number in official counts.

www.nytimes.com

Hmmm...

Hmmm.....is that the same New York Times that bashed Trump early in February for being xenophobic and making a big deal out of the coronavirus with his travel ban on China (see stories below)? Is that the same New York Times that got the Russian collusion story - including the element pertaining to Michael Flynn - flagrantly and totally wrong? Is that the same New York Times which has screwed up repeatedly with major stories in recent years?

Who Says It’s Not Safe to Travel to China?
The coronavirus travel ban is unjust and doesn’t work anyway.

Feb. 5, 2020

Opinion | Who Says It’s Not Safe to Travel to China? (Published 2020)

The coronavirus travel ban is unjust and doesn’t work anyway.

www.nytimes.com

 

[calitennis127]

Fuck John McCain. May he rot.

If that's how you feel about McCain, you should like Trump more. He was the only major figure in American politics to take McCain on over his fraudulent war record and not burn incense before him. McCain hated Trump in turn and tried to sabotage him by leaking the dossier.

McCain also hated Trump for his noninterventionist foreign policy views - which should be a reason for you to like Trump, but that's something you can't do because you're an anti-Trump bigot.

Fuck a government who, for decades, has enabled every Israeli atrocity in the Middle East.

Largely because of the influence of the Israeli lobby and Jewish-Americans generally, who, by the way, vote 80% Democrat and agree with all of your misinformed/idiotic social views because they hate white Christians just as much as you do.

 

[calitennis127]

And I supposed you're going to show how I said THE ONLY WAY someone could object to gay marriage is the fairy tale of the Old Testaments? As if Muslims haven't treated gays even worse? Hell, please show me where I said THE ONLY WAY someone could object to gay marriage is religion.

Better yet, please show me a time when you have ever indicated that someone might have a rational reason for opposing gay marriage or the glorification of LGBT lifestyles other than traditional religion. Let's think about that.....oh, right, there never was one. You are backpedaling like a dickhead right now and trying to pretend that you never implied this, but you know you're being disingenuous.

We could go on for days discussing this, but for now I will keep it brief: there are dozens of rational, empirical, and scientific reasons for opposing the current glorification of LGBT causes in the white West. This glorification is utterly irrational and idiotic, and it has nothing to do with being nice to some quiet gays that want to be left alone. The African leaders who are standing up to Western pressure on this issue are absolutely right.

But if you're going to sit here and act like there's not a big correlation (and causation, since the religious texts outright condemn homosexuality in a quite brutal way) then I'll have to take you even less seriously than I already do.

Well you're not a serious thinker, so what you deem serious probably isn't. What you believe about the USA is a bunch of misinformation and cliches circulated by the left-wing American media, except in your case (as a native Middle Easterner) you have an added animus for American foreign policy that extends to both parties, not just the Republicans. But other than that, you are simply a dime-a-dozen, totally cliche white leftist.

As for your point about traditional religion and homosexuality, you are of course being a fool. What you are doing is putting the cart before the horse and blaming religion for people being anti-gay. The truth is the opposite. Religions have codified teachings prohibiting homosexuality because human beings are reflexively anti-gay and find it to be perverse. It takes corrupt and twisted human ideas to worship gays and glorify their lifestyles, which is what the white West is doing right now.

 

[calitennis127]

Data shows that the US Coronavirus may actually be far greater than initially thought:

U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported, C.D.C. Data Suggests (Published 2020)

In seven hard-hit states, total deaths are nearly 50 percent higher than normal, according to new C.D.C. statistics, suggesting that the virus has killed far more people than the number in official counts.

www.nytimes.com

Hmmm...

There is so much bullshit in every single one of your posts that it would take 10 hours to address all of it. It's just staggering how much misinformation and misunderstanding you display, in mass. You should be proud of yourself for accomplishing such a feat.

Let me break something to you.....for the New York Times, the coronavirus is not about a virus. It's about taking down Trump. And what's going on in New York is a mixture of neglect, corruption, and outright fraud.

We now have reports of NY funeral directors saying that autopsies are not even being done and deaths are being falsely reported as COVID. If you're as much of a renegade as you think you are, you should try to expose yourself to some different ideas out there.

Expand your horizons a little bit. Read and listen to some different sources. Try it out:

 

[Moxie]

^ "Different sources," Cali? That one was from Project Veritas. You should vet your own sources before you push them. (And you sneer at the NYT and WaPo.)

Project Veritas: how fake news prize went to rightwing group beloved by Trump

James O’Keefe’s organisation specialising in media stings received donations from Trump’s foundation but was caught red-handed peddling a false story

www.theguardian.com

 

[calitennis127]

Yes, thanks for explaining the US is not a monarchy. Truly, an astounding revelation that completely absolves the person leading the country during one of its biggest ever crisis. Because that's exactly how things work. Truly, remarkable.

Your sarcasm just makes you sound dumber in this case. Trump is nowhere near as powerful as you consider him to be. Between the post-New Deal/post-WWII government of the U.S. and the power of the media in a techno-centric world, Trump is highly limited in what he can do in many situations. Nothing made this more obvious than how his administration was hamstrung for two years by the bogus Mueller investigation, which was conducted entirely because of the massive power of the media and the leading government agencies (DOJ, FBI, CIA, and State Department).

Aha, and I suppose the part where you'll show that I said Trump should have fired Fauci will come out next season? Or during one of the in depth tours through your imagination? Or perhaps the make believe books you follow? Just truly wondering. Because you keep making shit up so I'm just wondering when will we get to experience the endgame.

Lol.....yes, because if Trump had a falling-out with Fauci or publicly disagreed with him, I am absolutely certain that your bigoted, hateful ass would have considered for even one second that Trump was right. Sure.

So let's see what possibilities you have ruled out as being acceptable:

- Trump listening to Fauci (which is what he has done, according to Fauci himself): you say that's not good enough because he is the president and is still responsible

- Trump firing Fauci: you say that you didn't suggest he should do that

All that leaves as a possibility is keeping Fauci on board but clashing with him. And you know very well that there is zero chance with how much of an anti-Trump bigot you are that you would have ever said Trump was doing the right thing by defying Fauci.

I simply said, as a rule of thumb, that the idea that "all Trump did was listen to his advisors" would never ever ever ever ever ever fly anywhere. Not in any workplace, and certainly not when it comes to the fucking president of the United States.

Oh really? Is that why the CNN/NYT media that you and Moxie adore have called on him to "listen to the experts" repeatedly?

That point aside, Trump does not have nearly the power that you think he does. He is far more limited in what he can do than you imagine.

That's not how accountability works. So if your argument is that the advisors fucked up, well I'm sorry, but incompetence is reflected through Trump.

What a fucking stupid comment, especially in this particular case. Presidents hardly campaign on how they are going to combat pandemics because they are so rare. A president is not supposed to be epidemiologist-in-chief, especially not when you have massive government bureaucracies like the Center For Disease Control (CDC) focused on those particular issues. A president is supposed to defer in that case, you idiot.

That's quite literally how these things work in any discipline. Corporate, sports, politics, anything... Ultimately, the responsibility lies with him. That's what happens when you're president. And if you truly want to argue otherwise then you should legitimately be sent back to 8th grade.

This is a classic example of one of your ridiculous oversimplifications. Even in corporations (which have much more narrow purposes than the sprawling U.S. government that has hundreds), corruption or incompetence rarely can be blamed on just one individual. Was Bush's war in Iraq all Bush's fault? No. There were a cadre of actors in DC foreign policy circles who had been clamoring for that war for a long time (and they all hate Trump, btw). In that same vein, for you to say that the response of the CDC in addition to every state government to a pandemic ultimately goes back to the president is beyond stupid.

If anything, Trump has deferred to the advisers too much because their science is highly questionable and their models have been off. There has been no coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. outside of the NYC area and even there it is clear that large-scale fraud has been occurring, in addition to moronic decisions like shipping COVID patients to nursing homes, which Trump had nothing to do with.

 

[calitennis127]

^ "Different sources," Cali? That one was from Project Veritas. You should vet your own sources before you push them. (And you sneer at the NYT and WaPo.)

Project Veritas: how fake news prize went to rightwing group beloved by Trump

James O’Keefe’s organisation specialising in media stings received donations from Trump’s foundation but was caught red-handed peddling a false story

www.theguardian.com

That's a stupid hit piece, Moxie. Project Veritas has put out a ton of accurate information over the years. But since it exposes left-wing targets it is inevitably dismissed. You should try going for logic and clear thinking instead of appeals to fashion over who it was that said something. If a statement makes sense, it makes sense - regardless of who said it and how popular they may or may not be.

Watch the video and judge for yourself instead of scrambling to Google to see what the mainstream churches, I mean newspapers, are telling you what to think. As a matter of fact, watch a few Project Veritas videos and judge for yourself.

If you want a "trusted source" for your establishmentarian adoration mentality, well here is the incompetent CDC itself with its instructions for doctors:

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as "probable" or "presumed." In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely."

Now, be honest, that is a major invitation to falsification. And what the NYC funeral directors in the Project Veritas video said confirms it:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

 

[calitennis127]

^ "Different sources," Cali? That one was from Project Veritas. You should vet your own sources before you push them. (And you sneer at the NYT and WaPo.)

Project Veritas: how fake news prize went to rightwing group beloved by Trump

James O’Keefe’s organisation specialising in media stings received donations from Trump’s foundation but was caught red-handed peddling a false story

www.theguardian.com

And here Moxie, if you want a more mainstream, "respectable" source to appeal to your herd mentality, this is the Wall Street Journal. Here's an op-ed defending Trump's response to the coronavirus. If Broken wants to start understanding America, he could at least start reading the Wall Street Journal to balance out the ridiculous and distorted view of the USA that he has by just looking at CNN and the New York Times.



Seven Fateful Coronavirus Decisions
President Trump acted with dispatch, to keep Americans safe, even when it was unpopular.

By
Robert C. O’Brien

Opinion | Seven Fateful Coronavirus Decisions

President Trump acted with dispatch, to keep Americans safe, even when it was unpopular.

www.wsj.com

 

[Moxie]

I was listening to the Jon Meacham radio today. Presidential historian. Very interesting interview.

A Look Back at Historical Crises | The Brian Lehrer Show | WNYC

An in depth look at how America has overcome past historical tribulations.

www.wnyc.org

A man called in and declared himself neither Democrat nor Republican. Interestingly, though, he had all of Cali's talking points down to a T. I know it wasn't Cali, because he was in NY, and he was far too reasonable. But he pointed out about Cuomo, di Blasio and Pelosi encouraging people to go to their Chinatowns, back in Feb. He said that it was really Fauci who was in charge. And that the death rate is much lower than projected, so how was that not a success? Obviously, some people are hearing the same talking points on whatever media they're listening to.

Meacham was very interesting vis-a-vis Trump. He said it was like having the Nixon tapes in real time. That Presidents can be angry and feel put-upon by the media, or political rivals, but they have done it in private, in the past, whereas Trump says it all out loud, or tweets it, in real time. The point was responded to that Cuomo, di Blasio and Pelosi made mistakes, because no one wants to close down cities or states. It's a hard call to make. But that Trump made it about himself, about his being right or wrong, and the Democrats creating a "hoax" if you will, to bring him down. He used the phrase that Trump has "weaponized narcissism," which I thought was brilliant.

 

[Moxie]

That's a stupid hit piece, Moxie. Project Veritas has put out a ton of accurate information over the years. But since it exposes left-wing targets it is inevitably dismissed. You should try going for logic and clear thinking instead of appeals to fashion over who it was that said something. If a statement makes sense, it makes sense - regardless of who said it and how popular they may or may not be.

Watch the video and judge for yourself instead of scrambling to Google to see what the mainstream churches, I mean newspapers, are telling you what to think. As a matter of fact, watch a few Project Veritas videos and judge for yourself.

If you want a "trusted source" for your establishmentarian adoration mentality, well here is the incompetent CDC itself with its instructions for doctors:

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as "probable" or "presumed." In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely."

Now, be honest, that is a major invitation to falsification. And what the NYC funeral directors in the Project Veritas video said confirms it:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

It's a bit facile to dismiss that as a "hit piece." Those things happened. You do have to be concerned about your sources when they are this questionable.

But I did watch your video. Again...you have no fear of the anecdotal, and that's a failing. 3 funeral directors with personal opinions. Even at least one of them admits that the system is overwhelmed. In any case, @britbox and I have been talking for weeks now about how the actual numbers will be hard to verify. Your video suggests that they're padding the numbers for federal funding. That's not even an unreasonable suspicion, tbh. On the other hand, you've never addressed my point that at least more than twice as many people have died in the NYC area in the past month as died in the same period last year. We can argue case-by-case, and likely will down the road, but you can't ignore the fact that a lot more people are dying here, in raw numbers, than is usual. The fact that people die without being tested is also a failure of our tragic lack of testing. Try to get around that one. You keep trying to make little of it, either to be less-wrong or save Donald Trump, I'm not sure which. No, the whole country isn't as affected as New York is, but people are fucking dying here, and they're not all old. And in other parts of the country in numbers that are not usual. I've said this to you before: we can debate economic choices, but please stop diminishing the fact that it's happening.

 

[Federberg]

so riddle me this... Trump didn't take much time deploying an executive order to keep meat production factories to continue operations, which effectively protects the companies from liability if their employees get sick from the virus. But when it comes to using the defence production act to facilitate nationwide testing so that States can more quickly and safely exit from lockdowns he doesn't? This makes no sense to me. The politics for his own electoral interests surely would be on the side of such actions. I don't get it. I really don't

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Biden is such a douche. Going from " Every woman should be believed , I will fight for all the abused woman etc..." to " We need to believe in due process and the rule of law..." Of course that only happens when you yourself are on the hot seat. His current position is correct of course. It took us a long time to set up this system where we believe in due process and "innocent until proven otherwise". If he wasn't busy virtue signalling before, he would not have looked so stupid and hypocritical now.
I feel sorry for my US friends.You are stuck between a douche and a moron.

 

[Moxie]

Biden is such a douche. Going from " Every woman should be believed , I will fight for all the abused woman etc..." to " We need to believe in due process and the rule of law..." Of course that only happens when you yourself are on the hot seat. His current position is correct of course. It took us a long time to set up this system where we believe in due process and "innocent until proven otherwise". If he wasn't busy virtue signalling before, he would not have looked so stupid and hypocritical now.
I feel sorry for my US friends.You are stuck between a douche and a moron.

I thought you were one of those against PC BS. It doesn't occur to you that it's hypocritical to say that Biden's position on his own accusation is not hypocritical, if the accusation is not true? The place to cast your eyes is on Democrats and those who will vote for him. I include myself, and I acknowledge the ethical conundrum. But here is where we have to recognize that we are really post-sexual scandal. And I won't pretend it didn't start with Clinton, Bill. Democrats knew what we were getting, when we first voted for him, (the Jennifer Flowers-thing had come out,) but we voted for him anyway. We liked him, he had the economy singing, and we felt like his indiscretions were his wife's problem. Surely, however, Trump took being impermeable to sexual scandal to a new level. So that's where we are with Biden, and whatever the current accusation means, in truth or rumor. We don't care anymore. If the Republicans won't hold up #metoo, in terms of Trump and Kavanaugh, then we won't either. We'll vote tribes. As sad and cynical as that is, it's true. We'll care about the economy and our other basic policy differences. In that sense, nothing changes. As a woman, this does not surprise me.

However, to your point of "douche v. moron," Trump isn't just a moron, he's also a douche. At least with Biden, both are still up for debate.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I thought you were one of those against PC BS. It doesn't occur to you that it's hypocritical to say that Biden's position on his own accusation is not hypocritical, if the accusation is not true? The place to cast your eyes is on Democrats and those who will vote for him. I include myself, and I acknowledge the ethical conundrum. But here is where we have to recognize that we are really post-sexual scandal. And I won't pretend it didn't start with Clinton, Bill. Democrats knew what we were getting, when we first voted for him, (the Jennifer Flowers-thing had come out,) but we voted for him anyway. We liked him, he had the economy singing, and we felt like his indiscretions were his wife's problem. Surely, however, Trump took being impermeable to sexual scandal to a new level. So that's where we are with Biden, and whatever the current accusation means, in truth or rumor. We don't care anymore. If the Republicans won't hold up #metoo, in terms of Trump and Kavanaugh, then we won't either. We'll vote tribes. As sad and cynical as that is, it's true. We'll care about the economy and our other basic policy differences. In that sense, nothing changes. As a woman, this does not surprise me.

However, to your point of "douche v. moron," Trump isn't just a moron, he's also a douche. At least with Biden, both are still up for debate.

All else is fine but this highlighted part makes zero sense. I am anti PC BS. That means I will NOT blindly believe any woman who says she has been sexually abused because I believe each case has to be proven. Biden said women should be believed. BEFORE due course. He said we have to assume the women are correct in those instances, so it is guilty under proven innocent. He did not care if the accusation was true against Kavanaugh , did he? But when he is the one being accused, he wants due process. That makes HIM hypocritical, not me.
The rest, well, identity politics always leads to tribalism. It is the way it is.

 

[Moxie]

All else is fine but this highlighted part makes zero sense. I am anti PC BS. That means I will NOT blindly believe any woman who says she has been sexually abused because I believe each case has to be proven. Biden said women should be believed. BEFORE due course. He said we have to assume the women are correct in those instances, so it is guilty under proven innocent. He did not care if the accusation was true against Kavanaugh , did he? But when he is the one being accused, he wants due process. That makes HIM hypocritical, not me.
The rest, well, identity politics always leads to tribalism. It is the way it is.

This is what Biden had to say about Kavanaugh:
“For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real, whether or not she forgets facts, whether or not it’s been made worse or better over time." So he's saying that we should start with the presumption that the accuser is coming from a place of honesty. This was important to say, because women have been set on the back foot forever in terms of accusing men of sexual intimidation and assualt, for millenia. The presumption has tended to be that women make it up to hurt men or protect their own virtue. Then we examine what is knowable and true. And then usually what the woman had to say gets swept aside, anyway.

This doesn't mean that the accused has no right to say that he's been wrongly done-by. You're actually missing your own point. You hate that the accused, in a #metoo climate is (by your estimation) presumed guilty. And now you want Biden, by dint of belonging to the party that is more supportive of women's rights, to roll over whether he feels he's guilty or not. That's what you're calling hypocritical. And what if it didn't happen? Anyway, you're of the opinion, (forgive me if I'm wrong,) that he should be allowed to claim innocence. He might even be. My point is that the judge and jury on this will be the voters. And my further point is that it doesn't matter. What we've learned from #metoo is only how prevalent sexual intimidation and predation (not to mention assault) is in society, not that we're willing to give everything up politically to condemn it. The fact that more light has been shone on it doesn't mean that it's over, or that predators don't still get away with it.

So let me say it again, if you didn't get it the first time: If Joe Biden is what we've got to keep Trump from being re-elected, I'll vote for him. Whatever transgressions and however fallible he might be, it's nothing, to me, compared with how actually and provably transgressive, fallible and dangerous Trump is.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

This is what Biden had to say about Kavanaugh:
“For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you’ve got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she’s talking about is real, whether or not she forgets facts, whether or not it’s been made worse or better over time." So he's saying that we should start with the presumption that the accuser is coming from a place of honesty. This was important to say, because women have been set on the back foot forever in terms of accusing men of sexual intimidation and assualt, for millenia. The presumption has tended to be that women make it up to hurt men or protect their own virtue. Then we examine what is knowable and true. And then usually what the woman had to say gets swept aside, anyway.

This doesn't mean that the accused has no right to say that he's been wrongly done-by. You're actually missing your own point. You hate that the accused, in a #metoo climate is (by your estimation) presumed guilty. And now you want Biden, by dint of belonging to the party that is more supportive of women's rights, to roll over whether he feels he's guilty or not. That's what you're calling hypocritical. And what if it didn't happen? Anyway, you're of the opinion, (forgive me if I'm wrong,) that he should be allowed to claim innocence. He might even be. My point is that the judge and jury on this will be the voters. And my further point is that it doesn't matter. What we've learned from #metoo is only how prevalent sexual intimidation and predation (not to mention assault) is in society, not that we're willing to give everything up politically to condemn it. The fact that more light has been shone on it doesn't mean that it's over, or that predators don't still get away with it.

So let me say it again, if you didn't get it the first time: If Joe Biden is what we've got to keep Trump from being re-elected, I'll vote for him. Whatever transgressions and however fallible he might be, it's nothing, to me, compared with how actually and provably transgressive, fallible and dangerous Trump is.

OK you are either not getting it or doing this turning around thing on purpose. I do not WANT Biden to roll over. I do not want ANY MAN to roll over. But you cannot tell other men that you do not agree with to roll over and then preserve the right for your own self not to roll over. Get it?

 

[Federberg]

OK you are either not getting it or doing this turning around thing on purpose. I do not WANT Biden to roll over. I do not want ANY MAN to roll over. But you cannot tell other men that you do not agree with to roll over and then preserve the right for your own self not to roll over. Get it?

hmmmm... if Moxie's quote is right then I'm not sure what the issue is. She's right. It's on Dem voters not Biden. Their own self righteousness is the issue that seems to bite them on the behind. I've said it before, the left are vegetarians and the right carnivores. I respect the unapologetic nature of how the right goes about it's business, it's so.... me I just don't understand the preeminence of cultural rather than economic self interest that enables them (the right) to sustain their positions

 

[Moxie]

OK you are either not getting it or doing this turning around thing on purpose. I do not WANT Biden to roll over. I do not want ANY MAN to roll over. But you cannot tell other men that you do not agree with to roll over and then preserve the right for your own self not to roll over. Get it?

I quoted him. Can you quote to me where he ever told men to 'roll over,' or words to that effect?