US Open, Flushing Meadows, NY USA - Grand Slam (Men)

[Moxie]

I'm not saying that he didn't gut it out. I'm simply saying that, win or lose, he can't lose.

No, if he loses, he loses. If he wins, he wins. If you're talking about the court of opinion, yes, he gets some slack, but wouldn't you say he deserves some?

 

[Moxie]

All may be true. I'm just not a fan of del Potro's constant "woe is me" act. I liken it to Nadal's situation...If Nadal loses, then he sucks because of his so-called "weak" draw. If he wins, then it's because of his so-called "weak" draw. Either way, the guy can't win. Kinda the same with del Potro...If he loses, then he's either sick, or his wrists hurt. If he wins, then he's superman because he's sick and/or his wrists hurt. Just my opinion, as I've never been an elite athlete at any level.

Here it sounds like you're saying that Nadal is in a lose/lose and del Potro is in a win/win, in the court of opinion. I think they're very different arguments. Nadal's lose/lose is in the hands of his detractors. To say that del Potro is a "woe is me" strikes me as your opinion, and rather unkind, given the Job-like narrative of his career. And he doesn't seem to ask for our pity.

 

[kskate2]

USO Order of Play for QF Tuesday, September 5, 2017

 

[GameSetAndMath]

On a side note, why is Mladenovich sitting in Domi's box? Hmm...

First, they get into the box. Then, they get into the boxers.

 

[I.Haychew]

No, if he loses, he loses. If he wins, he wins. If you're talking about the court of opinion, yes, he gets some slack, but wouldn't you say he deserves some?

I don't dislike the guy. But...No. Why would you say that he does? Wrist surgeries? Illness? Or both?

 

[Moxie]

I don't dislike the guy. But...No. Why would you say that he does? Wrist surgeries? Illness? Or both?

In the sense of his bad luck with his body (wrist injuries,) yes. He's lost nearly 3 of his best years to injury after winning a Slam. And sometimes then it gets compounded by bad luck...tougher than necessary first round draws, due to his ranking. (Anyone who has been paying attention would say this.) And then, yeah, if he gets a flu at a major, on top of it, I feel bad for the guy. And if he toughs out a win, in spite of all that, in 5 sets against a top opponent, I'm going to give him some extra credit. You don't have to.

 

[DarthFed]

I looked it up. He has a condition called Gilbert's syndrome which affects the liver and often causes fatigue. I've read in the context of him that it's exacerbated by travel, which can't be good for a tennis player.

Along with "bitter," I'd appreciate if you'd stop calling me "naive." I understand what match-fixing is about, and why players would do it. I'm only suggesting that we wait until more is known before condemning. You're from the US. How about a little bit of innocent until proven guilty. And let's just remember: the internet is far from a court of law.

Yes I'm well aware of innocent until proven guilty but that shouldn't and doesn't stop people from speculating on likeliness of guilt. I'm not asking for them to suspend him immediately without investigation. Hell, chances are there won't be any hard evidence linking Dog to anything. But something that abnormal happens...common sense says there is a reason for it.

 

[I.Haychew]

Here it sounds like you're saying that Nadal is in a lose/lose and del Potro is in a win/win, in the court of opinion. I think they're very different arguments. Nadal's lose/lose is in the hands of his detractors. To say that del Potro is a "woe is me" strikes me as your opinion, and rather unkind, given the Job-like narrative of his career. And he doesn't seem to ask for our pity.

Would you not agree, judging by the posts on this forum, that if Nadal wins, it's due of a depleted field? And if del Potro had lost, it'd primarily have been due to injury/illness. del Potro may not ask for our pity, but it (our pity) sure does seem to be there. Because of his wrist issues, he'll always get a pass. Again...If he wins, he's superman. If he loses, it's because of his wrists/health.

 

[Moxie]

Yes I'm well aware of innocent until proven guilty but that shouldn't and doesn't stop people from speculating on likeliness of guilt. I'm not asking for them to suspend him immediately without investigation. Hell, chances are there won't be any hard evidence linking Dog to anything. But something that abnormal happens...common sense says there is a reason for it.

Look, it's totally possible given that his health is an issue, that he's gaming another way to make money off of tennis. But in your post that I quoted before, you slag him for being a head case, and then hope he gets done for match fixing. That's not about a conversation in terms of tennis integrity. That's you being mad that he didn't beat Rafa, or give him a harder time. There is a difference. You've come to understand that he's compromised as to his health, but if you really wanted to have a conversation about match mixing, we could do that in another way, rather than just impugning someone in a post about him not beating your hated one. It just comes off as bile, if you know what I mean.

 

[DarthFed]

Look, it's totally possible given that his health is an issue, that he's gaming another way to make money off of tennis. But in your post that I quoted before, you slag him for being a head case, and then hope he gets done for match fixing. That's not about a conversation in terms of tennis integrity. That's you being mad that he didn't beat Rafa, or give him a harder time. There is a difference. You've come to understand that he's compromised as to his health, but if you really wanted to have a conversation about match mixing, we could do that in another way, rather than just impugning someone in a post about him not beating your hated one. It just comes off as bile, if you know what I mean.

Actually I'm not slagging him for not being competitive with Nadal. I'm slagging him for being a clear underachiever and a bit of a head case. Add that into the very possible match-fixing and I don't like the guy.

 

[Moxie]

Would you not agree, judging by the posts on this forum, that if Nadal wins, it's due of a depleted field? And if del Potro had lost, it'd primarily have been due to injury/illness. del Potro may not ask for our pity, but it (our pity) sure does seem to be there. Because of his wrist issues, he'll always get a pass. Again...If he wins, he's superman. If he loses, it's because of his wrists/health.

As I said before, those are two different arguments. Yes, I do think that some are setting up a potential Nadal win as a diminished accomplishment. I don't see that at all similar to people saying that Del Potro has been unlucky in his career, due to injury. The similarity would be that we add a subjective twist to objective results. The difference I see, though, is that it's one thing to have sympathy for a player that has had a rough road, and another to pretend that a player might win a hard tournament with an easy path.

 

[I.Haychew]

Look, it's totally possible given that his health is an issue, that he's gaming another way to make money off of tennis. But in your post that I quoted before, you slag him for being a head case, and then hope he gets done for match fixing. That's not about a conversation in terms of tennis integrity. That's you being mad that he didn't beat Rafa, or give him a harder time. There is a difference. You've come to understand that he's compromised as to his health, but if you really wanted to have a conversation about match mixing, we could do that in another way, rather than just impugning someone in a post about him not beating your hated one. It just comes off as bile, if you know what I mean.

I agree. Did Dolgopolov lose the match because he's a head case? Or because he fixed the match?

 

[Moxie]

Actually I'm not slagging him for not being competitive with Nadal. I'm slagging him for being a clear underachiever and a bit of a head case. Add that into the very possible match-fixing and I don't like the guy.

So you've just back-tracked on what you said. You said you could be sympathetic that he has an illness. Now he's back to a head-case.

 

[I.Haychew]

As I said before, those are two different arguments. Yes, I do think that some are setting up a potential Nadal win as a diminished accomplishment. I don't see that at all similar to people saying that Del Potro has been unlucky in his career, due to injury. The similarity would be that we add a subjective twist to objective results. The difference I see, though, is that it's one thing to have sympathy for a player that has had a rough road, and another to pretend that a player might win a hard tournament with an easy path.

Does Nadal get a pass because of his chronic knee problems? Does Federer get a passs becsuse of his chronic back problems? Is surgery the determining factor?

 

[DarthFed]

So you've just back-tracked on what you said. You said you could be sympathetic that he has an illness. Now he's back to a head-case.

I'm referring to the original post from earlier today. I'm a little more sympathetic to Dog's up and down play given his illness that I was unaware of.

I had no expectation that he would give Rafa trouble, unlike Shoelace a couple nights ago who said he wouldn't be surprised if Rafa lost. My earlier post was in response to that.

As for the match-fixing, has nothing to do with the match today. Just including it in the list of reasons I don't care for the guy.

 

[Moxie]

I'm referring to the original post from earlier today. I'm a little more sympathetic to Dog's up and down play given his illness that I was unaware of.

I had no expectation that he would give Rafa trouble, unlike Shoelace a couple nights ago who said he wouldn't be surprised if Rafa lost. My earlier post was in response to that.

As for the match-fixing, has nothing to do with the match today. Just including it in the list of reasons I don't care for the guy.

All clear and understood. And Broken is your opposite number in terms of Rafa fan. The two of you are the biggest doomsayers for your player of everyone.

 

[I.Haychew]

I'm referring to the original post from earlier today. I'm a little more sympathetic to Dog's up and down play given his illness that I was unaware of.

I had no expectation that he would give Rafa trouble, unlike Shoelace a couple nights ago who said he wouldn't be surprised if Rafa lost. My earlier post was in response to that.

As for the match-fixing, has nothing to do with the match today. Just including it in the list of reasons I don't care for the guy.

What is your and Broken's deal? You both always say that your guy sucks and will lose at some point during a major...Playing like this, Federer will lose to Lopez/Kohlschreiber/whoever and Nadal will lose to the next player who is somewhat decent. Such negativity. Both guys are heating up. And I thought that I was a pessimist!

 

[Moxie]

Does Nadal get a pass because of his chronic knee problems? Does Federer get a passs becsuse of his chronic back problems? Is surgery the determining factor?

Does Del Potro get a pass, really? He gets some human sympathy, but let's go back to what brought this up: talking about Theim choking. Maybe he did...like Pouille, he had a wounded bird in his sights and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Does that diminish the effort of the wounded warrior who didn't give up? I think not. So Del Po still standing, Schwartzman still standing. And for those who would say this has turned into a 250 or however much they would like to diminish it, I would say, in the classic New York salute:

EDIT: Do note, @I.Haychew, that "fuck you" was directed at others, not you.

 

[I.Haychew]

Does Del Potro get a pass, really? He gets some human sympathy, but let's go back to what brought this up: talking about Theim choking. Maybe he did...like Pouille, he had a wounded bird in his sights and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Does that diminish the effort of the wounded warrior who didn't give up? I think not. So Del Po still standing, Schwartzman still standing. And for those who would say this has turned into a 250 or however much they would like to diminish it, I would say, in the classic New York salute:

Really. Why should del Potro get a pass? Thiem did choke. Being that I didn't see the Pouille match, I can't comment. My opinion is that don't think that del Potro was a "wounded warrior". I think that he pulled the 'ol rope-a-dope. If you're ill, then you're ill. I don't see how the support of the crowd can trump your illness/injury. Then again, like I said, I'm not a pro athlete. So I really can't relate. If del Potro actually fought through it and toughed it out, then kudos to him.

 

[Moxie]

Really. Why should del Potro get a pass? Thiem did choke. Being that I didn't see the Pouille match, I can't comment. My opinion is that don't think that del Potro was a "wounded warrior". I think that he pulled the 'ol rope-a-dope. If you're ill, then you're ill. I don't see how the support of the crowd can trump your illness/injury. Then again, like I said, I'm not a pro athlete. So I really can't relate. If del Potro actually fought through it and toughed it out, then kudos to him.

I keep saying it's not a "pass." It's only sympathy. But I hear where you're coming from now...you think he's a faker, no? Then I can't help you. Though I do think it's unlikely he'd fake himself 2 sets down just to gain sympathy from the crowd, only to get lifted up by the Argentines in the crowd. Let's say he wasn't sick, at all. He still came back from 2 sets down to win. That's an admirable comeback. Isn't that enough? You don't have to give him more than that.