The Rankings Thread (ATP)

[tented]

Thank goodness for the Canadian boys or North America would never be represented internationally in top events! Our best still don't have the weapons to compete abroad! The ladies are coming along nicely, but there are probably a few knuckleheads pining for the days of Roddick; "not me!"

I’m not pining for Roddick, but what his absence has shown, in stark relief, is how bereft the US now is of top talent. Love him or hate him, Roddick was a steady presence in the Top 10 for years. There hasn’t been even one man from the US to fill that void — and Roddick has been retired for eight years. It’s pretty pathetic that in nearly a decade not a single US man has stepped up to be a steady Top 10 player.

 

[Kieran]

I’m not pining for Roddick, but what his absence has shown, in stark relief, is how bereft the US now is of top talent. Love him or hate him, Roddick was a steady presence in the Top 10 for years. There hasn’t been even one man from the US to fill that void — and Roddick has been retired for eight years. It’s pretty pathetic that in nearly a decade not a single US man has stepped up to be a steady Top 10 player.

Why is this? What’s gone so wrong in American men’s tennis?

 

[tennisville]

Why did Novak "deserve" those 22 weeks when no one was playing? That would be 22 free weeks. Doesn't make sense. The clock stopped for everyone.

Because rankings are a 52-week cycle and Tennis was played over the course of the past 52 weeks during that freeze. Rankings are not something that happens on a week to week basis but are annual. He had the most points in those 52 weeks and should have been no 1. Simple as that

 

[Jelenafan]

To be correct: Russia is mostly Asian.
So we can say two continents.


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To paraphrase you, Aren't Russians "Fake Asians" ? ; )

 

[Jelenafan]

Because rankings are a 52-week cycle and Tennis was played over the course of the past 52 weeks during that freeze. Rankings are not something that happens on a week to week basis but are annual. He had the most points in those 52 weeks and should have been no 1. Simple as that

The problem is outside of the normal winter hiatus to conclude the calendar year, ie after the ATP YE champs in November and the early Jan tournaments pre AO, (8-9 weeks?) the tennis rankings are based on a sliding scale of tennis events for 9-10 months where players gain or lose points based on their performance. So we have the whole scenario of points sliding off and points being gained.

This 7 month break would have meant points would have been frozen for 7 months at the heart of what normally is the tennis calendar with ZERO activity. What we have now isn't perfect, but it beats giving someone 7 free months at the top ranking just because.....

 

[Fiero425]

To be correct: Russia is mostly Asian.
So we can say two continents.


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The "divide" is on display in Figure Skating where there's an international event called "Europeans" where the only countries that can participate are from Europe (The Continent)! Other parts of the world felt slighted so "The 4 Continents Champ." was created 20+ years ago! Asia's part of the eligible countries, but Russia isn't allowed a spot even though most of their mass is in Asia!

 

[tented]

Why is this? What’s gone so wrong in American men’s tennis?

That’s an excellent question. (And have you ever noticed when someone says “What an excellent question!”, the answer is inferior?)

I think it’s a combination of a few things: a) other sports are simply more popular and pay more; b) their early training is too focused exclusively on hard courts. The McEnroe brothers have both addressed this second issue, and have tried to make changes, but there’s no evidence I’ve seen of significant changes. But if you consider three out of nine Masters, and one out of four majors are on clay, the US players aren’t taking advantage of these chances to improve their rankings, or become more well-rounded players.

@Fiero425 — what are your thoughts on this?

 

[Ricardo]

Because rankings are a 52-week cycle and Tennis was played over the course of the past 52 weeks during that freeze. Rankings are not something that happens on a week to week basis but are annual. He had the most points in those 52 weeks and should have been no 1. Simple as that

wrong, if during that cycle a portion of it is frozen so tournaments are cancelled, that cycle is broken.

 

[Bonaca]

To paraphrase you, Aren't Russians "Fake Asians" ? ; )

What kind of logic is this?
Simple geografic fact.


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[Kieran]

That’s an excellent question. (And have you ever noticed when someone says “What an excellent question!”, the answer is inferior?)

I think it’s a combination of a few things: a) other sports are simply more popular and pay more; b) their early training is too focused exclusively on hard courts. The McEnroe brothers have both addressed this second issue, and have tried to make changes, but there’s no evidence I’ve seen of significant changes. But if you consider three out of nine Masters, and one out of four majors are on clay, the US players aren’t taking advantage of these chances to improve their rankings, or become more well-rounded players.

@Fiero425 — what are your thoughts on this?

The answer to this can never be straightforward, that's the problem. The line of great open era male champs has been broken a long time now, and it's a glaring omission on the world stage. What you would give for a young Sampras, eh?

 

[Fiero425]

That’s an excellent question. (And have you ever noticed when someone says “What an excellent question!”, the answer is inferior?)

I think it’s a combination of a few things: a) other sports are simply more popular and pay more; b) their early training is too focused exclusively on hard courts. The McEnroe brothers have both addressed this second issue, and have tried to make changes, but there’s no evidence I’ve seen of significant changes. But if you consider three out of nine Masters, and one out of four majors are on clay, the US players aren’t taking advantage of these chances to improve their rankings, or become more well-rounded players.

@Fiero425 — what are your thoughts on this?

It's rather simplistic, but I've believed over-achievers were "so" due to being hungry! The US is the most self-indulgent country in the world! We demand immediate gratification with a minimum of fuss and muss; hence not exactly hard-working! Little aggravates me more than tech. or other office workers b!tching about how hard they work when it's really their time being taken from them! They actually resent having to get dressed and pretend to be doing something! No one had it easier than me as a database admin.! I could be at the office for 12 hours doing a project, but it really wasn't hard! It consumed time due to the prehistoric equipment we worked on back in the day!

The demise of US tennis coincides with their obliteration of clay! We didn't like losing to So. Americans and Euros who were dogged and could make the best players of our country "work" on that surface no matter the rank! We systematically got rid of clay; our lone Nat'l Champ. of Indy changing to HC and being relegated to Texas! After '77's humiliations to Vilas with our top player outside of Connors at the time being Brian Gottfried who was Vilas' pigeon, even the Hard-Tru WCT events started falling by the wayside in the early 80's! Our juniors had tons of clay events to hone their skills, but they've been plowed under! Near me, the lone big clay event in River Forest, IL might still be in existence! I never attended even though I lived just a few blocks away in Forest Park! Other countries clean our clock due to possible laziness and a lack of ambition by our NG'rs! Maybe since going legal, "the Chronic" is zapping our motivation! That would take us to a whole new level of en oui with our not really caring or giving AF!

Update: I didn't mention the concentration camps that spit out Agassi, Sampras, Courier, & Chang because I don't think any kids gonna give up his or her childhood to excel outside of Gauff! ;-)

 

[Jelenafan]

This has to be one of the longest droughts in American tennis on the international scene, Roddick's 2003 USO victory is the last American Major victory. 17 years ! All my life an American(s) were a constant on the top 10 even top 5. Pre-Roddick we had all at the same time Sampras, Agassi, Courier & Chang, hell in that time the 5th American Todd Martin made 2 Major finals, and like 4 SF's and a boatload of qtrs, before that Johnny Mac, Connors, Geraultatis, and before them Stan Smith, Arthur Ashe, Clark Grabener all in the Open era.

Per what Fiero said earlier, I think today our American cultural "mentality" may work against us, as others around the world can be just as good on HC, which used to be American "turf"...

Possible solutions?
I would looove to see some American parents take a gamble; decide that their promising youngster could say, do well in training at the RAfa Academy (or some other European site such as Patricks M) for a couple of years to see them becoming more well rounded. The tougher competition seems to be centered in Europe these days. At the risk of generalizing, I also notice that clay dirtballers have a tendency to adjust better to HC than the other way around.

(Sidenote: more than a few ATP foreign professionals cut their teeth playing NCAA tennis their college years here in the State, so for them the US isn't so strange.)

One of the things I hear constantly from American players is how "homesick" they get playing in other venues, especially Europe. Listen, being on the road has to be tough, (especially for South Africans, South Americans and Asian players who travel almost exclusively abroad) so I'm guessing that anything that makes you more adaptable early on could be potentially good.

Cost wise, would it be any more prohibitive than some of the other pricey tennis academies here in the States?

Plus the parents can visit them abroad !

 

[Fiero425]

This has to be one of the longest droughts in American tennis on the international scene, Roddick's 2003 USO victory is the last American Major victory. 17 years ! All my life an American(s) were a constant on the top 10 even top 5. Pre-Roddick we had all at the same time Sampras, Agassi, Courier & Chang, hell in that time the 5th American Todd Martin made 2 Major finals, and like 4 SF's and a boatload of qtrs, before that Johnny Mac, Connors, Geraultatis, and before them Stan Smith, Arthur Ashe, Clark Grabener all in the Open era.

Per what Fiero said earlier, I think today our American cultural "mentality" may work against us, as others around the world can be just as good on HC, which used to be American "turf"...

Possible solutions?
I would looove to see some American parents take a gamble; decide that their promising youngster could say, do well in training at the RAfa Academy (or some other European site such as Patricks M) for a couple of years to see them becoming more well rounded. The tougher competition seems to be centered in Europe these days. At the risk of generalizing, I also notice that clay dirt-ballers have a tendency to adjust better to HC than the other way around.

(Sidenote: more than a few ATP foreign professionals cut their teeth playing NCAA tennis their college years here in the State, so for them the US isn't so strange.)

One of the things I hear constantly from American players is how "homesick" they get playing in other venues, especially Europe. Listen, being on the road has to be tough, (especially for South Africans, South Americans and Asian players who travel almost exclusively abroad) so I'm guessing that anything that makes you more adaptable early on could be potentially good.

Cost wise, would it be any more prohibitive than some of the other pricey tennis academies here in the States?

Plus the parents can visit them abroad !

This plays into what I was saying about "self-indulgence!" I know I can't even deal with the inconvenience of a long line at a restaurant, kids today are never happy even when you give them all they want! It'll never be enough! Foreigners probably laugh at what crybabies Americans can be even when most everything's going their way! It's one of the reasons I try not to get into the personal lives of pro athletes! They always disappoint whining about something even though being paid millions to play a kid's game!

 

[tennisville]

The problem is outside of the normal winter hiatus to conclude the calendar year, ie after the ATP YE champs in November and the early Jan tournaments pre AO, (8-9 weeks?) the tennis rankings are based on a sliding scale of tennis events for 9-10 months where players gain or lose points based on their performance. So we have the whole scenario of points sliding off and points being gained.

This 7 month break would have meant points would have been frozen for 7 months at the heart of what normally is the tennis calendar with ZERO activity. What we have now isn't perfect, but it beats giving someone 7 free months at the top ranking just because.....

Again there is no right way to look at it and the ATP did well based on their cards. If points had slid off as usual instead of being frozen, that would have also been a good solution and would still have the same weight to the rankings which would indicate the best player in the past 52 weeks.

Now you have scenarios where because of the freeze, certain players were benefitted and certain players were hindered. You cant look at the rankings and now say that they represent the best players of the past 52 weeks. The meaning of the rankings are now not the same

 

[Moxie]

 

[tennisville]

You know the ATP is hiding something when there is a rule change to the rankings that happen in the middle of the week and not communicated at all

Screenshot on Monday sowing that 2019 points will drop off on Nov 16. They have not dropped as of yet

 

[Fiero425]

You know the ATP is hiding something when there is a rule change to the rankings that happen in the middle of the week and not communicated at all

Screenshot on Monday sowing that 2019 points will drop off on Nov 16. They have not dropped as of yet
View attachment 4251

It makes sense! Those points had to come off! They couldn't stay on the record forever! Need to go check how it affects the rankings!

 

[tennisville]

It makes sense! Those points had to come off! They couldn't stay on the record forever! Need to go check how it affects the rankings!

The rules have been changed mid-week and those points have not dropped as of now. Looks like they will be there till 2021 November now

 

[tennisville]

Someone calculated that the new rankings have helped Federer be #5 instead of #28

Theim would also have been the #2 instead of #3

 

[Kieran]

Someone calculated that the new rankings have helped Federer be #5 instead of #28

Theim would also have been the #2 instead of #3

We all know this season is the Asterisk season, as far as the rankings go, but we're all grateful that we saw some brilliant tennis. in the WTA it's even worse, with Barty being proclaimed #1 for winning Adelaide...