The Rankings Thread (ATP)

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

it is now 15 years of hogging the world no1 rank for the big 4....since feb 2nd 2004.

 

[herios]

New career high on Feb. 11, 2019:

27. Alex deMinaur 19y
29. Frances Tiafoe 21y
36. Pierre Huguet Herbert 27y
46. Matteo Berrettini 22y
69. Juan Ignacio Londero 25y
79. Radu Albot 29y
89. Reilly Opelka 21y
97. Prajnesh Gunneswaran 29y
98. Lloyd Harris 21y
100. Pedro Sousa 30y.

This week we have 3 new members in the top 100:
Londero who jumped all the way to a top 70 position, Gunneswaran from India and Pedro Sousa from Portugal.
None of them are spring chicken, as you can see.

 

[Fiero425]

New career high on Feb. 11, 2019:

27. Alex deMinaur 19y
29. Frances Tiafoe 21y
36. Pierre Huguet Herbert 27y
46. Matteo Berrettini 22y
69. Juan Ignacio Londero 25y
79. Radu Albot 29y
89. Reilly Opelka 21y
97. Prajnesh Gunneswaran 29y
98. Lyoyd Harris 21y
100. Pedro Sousa 30y.

This week we have 3 new members is the top 100:
Londero who jumped all the way to a top 70 position, Gunneswaran from India and Pedro Sousa from Portugal.
None of them are spring chicken, as you can see.

I was so impressed by DeMinaur & Tiafoe, but they need to back up these latest results or they'll wind up being the joke Dimitrov became!

 

[herios]

I was so impressed by DeMinaur & Tiafoe, but they need to back up these latest results or they'll wind up being the joke Dimitrov became!

They deserve a long break, considering their age. Way to go before they will become a Dimitrov like career.

 

[herios]

For fun, I compared where was Dimi ranked when he was at the same age like Alex and Frances today.
Grigor was ranked 64 when he was aged like Alex today and 72 when he was aged like Frances today.
So, basically for a full year between 20 and 21 Grigor was unable to gain any ground. In hindsight, all the hype was unjustified, as far as a future great. He became a pretty good player, but not what everyone was expecting .

 

[Moxie]

For fun, I compared where was Dimi ranked when he was at the same age like Alex and Frances today.
Grigor was ranked 64 when he was aged like Alex today and 72 when he was aged like Frances today.
So, basically for a full year between 20 and 21 Grigor was unable to gain any ground. In hinsight, all the hype was unjustified, as far as a future great. He became a pretty good player, but not what everyone was expecting .

That's an interesting comparison. As far as I can tell, neither De Miñaur nor Tiafoe are pegged as world beaters, just a chance for really solid. Dimitrov was scouted early for "greatness." Giving him the benefit of the doubt, (and I'm disinclined,) perhaps it went to his head early and caused him issues, via early scrutiny and expectations. (See Zverev, A., and Shapovalov, D.) Alex and Frances both seem pretty sturdy and committed. I agree with you that, at their ages, they seem to be progressing nicely, and no reason to push for instanteously better results, as from @Fiero425.

 

[El Dude]

Dimitrov is a "joke" relative to early expectations, but he's still had a pretty decent career. He's got a Masters and WTF title, which is better than all but a relatively small group among active players have accomplished (Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Cilic, del Potro, and Zverev). Tsonga has the two Masters, but the WTF is a better accomplishment.

 

[Moxie]

Dimitrov is a "joke" relative to early expectations, but he's still had a pretty decent career. He's got a Masters and WTF title, which is better than all but a relatively small group among active players have accomplished (Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Cilic, del Potro, and Zverev). Tsonga has the two Masters, but the WTF is a better accomplishment.

On paper, the YEC is the bigger prize, but there are arguments, which I know you know. In the case of 2017, Dimitrov was a bit the last man standing. He did win all of his matches, but he played: Thiem, Goffin, PCB, Sock, Goffin. Tsonga won his 2 MS by beating Federer and Nalbandian in the finals. (I didn't bother looking up the full draw.) You can only play who's on offer, but the point is worth making, if you're going to compare those 2 specific players and their relative achievements.

That said, it is very true that Dimitrov has had a commendable career. Like Tsonga, like Nalbandian, like Gasquet. We sometimes forget not to sneeze at decent careers. But that's why we keep having threads about "greatest disappointments/underachievers." It's hard not to see the talent and get frustrated by the lack of fruit borne of it. The opposite number is why we're so passionate about Roger/Rafa/Nole: they come good so often. They mostly realize our greatest ambitions for them. They pay off our loyalty.

 

[El Dude]

On paper, the YEC is the bigger prize, but there are arguments, which I know you know. In the case of 2017, Dimitrov was a bit the last man standing. He did win all of his matches, but he played: Thiem, Goffin, PCB, Sock, Goffin. Tsonga won his 2 MS by beating Federer and Nalbandian in the finals. (I didn't bother looking up the full draw.) You can only play who's on offer, but the point is worth making, if you're going to compare those 2 specific players and their relative achievements.

That said, it is very true that Dimitrov has had a commendable career. Like Tsonga, like Nalbandian, like Gasquet. We sometimes forget not to sneeze at decent careers. But that's why we keep having threads about "greatest disappointments/underachievers." It's hard not to see the talent and get frustrated by the lack of fruit borne of it. The opposite number is why we're so passionate about Roger/Rafa/Nole: they come good so often. They mostly realize our greatest ambitions for them. They pay off our loyalty.

Good points. I think we too often criticize the Dimitrovs and Tsongas of the world, and at the same time under-estimate just how hard it is to do with what Roger/Rafa/Novak--even Andy--do and have done, year after year.

Back to Dimitrov for a moment. While I think his two big titles have pushed him past Gasquet (who has only won ATP 250s!), he and Tsonga are an interesting comparison. Just based upon seeing those two names and without looking at their numbers, I see underachievers of varying degrees: two very good players, but not great ones. Tsonga has been around longer so I would guess he has more hardware, but Dimitrov has that YEC.

And now let's look at the titles:
Tsonga: 17 titles (2 Masters, 2 500s, 13 250s)
Dimitrov: 8 titles (1 YEC, 1 Masters, 1 500, 5 250s)

Tsonga turns 34 in April, Dimitrov turns 28 in May - so a six year gap (same as Federer and Djokovic). That would imply that Grigor not only has time to narrow that gap in titles, but also more opportunities to win more big titles. That said, Tsonga has gone deeper in Slams and I don't see Grigor catching him in that regard. Check out their Slam QFs or better:

Tsonga: 1 F, 5 SF, 8 QF
Dimitrov: 2 SF, 2 QF

Not even close.

Finally, I think you and I have agreed in the past that part of what makes the great players great is that they are opportunistic. Not all of their biggest titles were won through defeating other great players. Federer won a few Slams this way, and Nadal more recently (e.g. the 2017 USO).

 

[Moxie]

Good points. I think we too often criticize the Dimitrovs and Tsongas of the world, and at the same time under-estimate just how hard it is to do with what Roger/Rafa/Novak--even Andy--do and have done, year after year.

Back to Dimitrov for a moment. While I think his two big titles have pushed him past Gasquet (who has only won ATP 250s!), he and Tsonga are an interesting comparison. Just based upon seeing those two names and without looking at their numbers, I see underachievers of varying degrees: two very good players, but not great ones. Tsonga has been around longer so I would guess he has more hardware, but Dimitrov has that YEC.

And now let's look at the titles:
Tsonga: 17 titles (2 Masters, 2 500s, 13 250s)
Dimitrov: 8 titles (1 YEC, 1 Masters, 1 500, 5 250s)

Tsonga turns 34 in April, Dimitrov turns 28 in May - so a six year gap (same as Federer and Djokovic). That would imply that Grigor not only has time to narrow that gap in titles, but also more opportunities to win more big titles. That said, Tsonga has gone deeper in Slams and I don't see Grigor catching him in that regard. Check out their Slam QFs or better:

Tsonga: 1 F, 5 SF, 8 QF
Dimitrov: 2 SF, 2 QF

Not even close.

Finally, I think you and I have agreed in the past that part of what makes the great players great is that they are opportunistic. Not all of their biggest titles were won through defeating other great players. Federer won a few Slams this way, and Nadal more recently (e.g. the 2017 USO).

Wow, that Gasquet factoid is a shocker. Yes, agreed about great players being opportunistic, which is why I tried to soft-pedal Dimitrov's competition the YEC that he won. But still...Federer and Nadal have also beat all comers. They're due a "freebie" once in a while. Dimitrov's biggest one was a bit of a "gimme." That's not quite the same.

I'm not sure where we're going with this, other than an academic exercise, unless you're still holding out hope for Dimitrov. Tsonga is surely done making big noise, but it's worth remembering that, between injuries and being in the era of the big 4, he had little wiggle room. If Dimitrov manages to do something interesting when the era of Fed/Nadal/Nole is done, then good on him, but he would have had the advantage of youth over Tsonga.

 

[herios]

New career high Feb. 18, 2019:

15. Daniil Medvedev 23y
17. Marco Cecchinato 26y
56. Reilly Opelka 21y
62. Cameron Norrie 23y
66. Jaume Munar 21y
75. Ugo Humbert 20y
99. Pedro Sousa 30y

 

[tented]

New career high Feb. 18, 2019:

15. Daniil Medvedev 23y
17. Marco Cecchinato 26y
56. Reilly Opelka 21y
62. Cameron Norrie 23y
66. Jaume Munar 21y
75. Ugo Humbert 20y
99. Pedro Sousa 30y

i see Medvedev is continuing his steady climb towards the Top 10. I don’t remember what he has to defend in IW and Miami, but he might have a chance to get to the Top 10 before the clay season.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

faa (aka small colin) will one day bust his way through the invisible roof that is the top100 in the rank charts.

seems to be always lurking about the 101-110 zone, a win or two this week should do it.

 

[herios]

i see Medvedev is continuing his steady climb towards the Top 10. I don’t remember what he has to defend in IW and Miami, but he might have a chance to get to the Top 10 before the clay season.

Here it is how it could play out:
The first time when someone could get into the top 10 with realistic chances is right after Miami where Isner has 1000 points to defend. Chances are he will not defend all of those.
The best positioned at the moment for the break in the top 10 is Tsitsipas, who next week will probably become 11 ranked, as Khachanov loses points by being unable to defend his title in Marseille.
Currently, Medvedev is 565 points behind Tsitsipas, and in IW +Miami Medvedev defends 70 points, while Tsitsipas 35 points, so basically Medvedev would need to gain 600 points more than Tsitsipas.

 

[El Dude]

Felix Auger-Aliassime is #89 in the live rankings, so he's all but assured of breaching the top 100 on Monday. I have high hopes for this kid. I mean, he was born on August 8.

 

[Moxie]

Felix Auger-Aliassime is #89 in the live rankings, so he's all but assured of breaching the top 100 on Monday. I have high hopes for this kid. I mean, he was born on August 8.

:lulz2: (Only laughing at the bday. I like him.)

 

[herios]

I like him too, my only problem is @El Dude is overhyping him and that makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Moxie]

I like him too, my only problem is @El Dude is overhyping him and that makes me uncomfortable.

Don't worry. It won't put a whammy on him. FAA will just do as well as he does. He is ambitious and talented.

 

[El Dude]

I like him too, my only problem is @El Dude is overhyping him and that makes me uncomfortable.

If only I had as much power over reality as you fear I do. If only.

 

[El Dude]

FAA now up to #77 in live rankings. Looks like he's having his "micro-breakout." That's what I call when a player makes a jump into the top 100. A lot of players seem to hang out around #100-150ish for awhile, in what could be called "Qualie Purgatory." They usually need either a string of Challenger titles or a deep run or two in ATP tournaments, or even a minor (250/500) title. Looks like FAA is at least going deep in an ATP tournament.