Soccer/Football, The Beautiful Game

brokenshoelace

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Vicent Kompany is the most overrated defender in the world. He's good, don't get me wrong, and he can handle physically imposing strikers just fine, but when having to mark a striker with skill, agility, and off the ball movement, he's out of his depth. Barcelona again showing City that they're not ready for Europe's elite. To be honest, City were fortunate to get the result as it could/should have been more.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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I've always though kompany was slow in the head too..no wonder barcelona wasted him. city were pulled apart, milner ended up playing 3 positions (I think)..pellegrini prob be sacked in the summer.

really enjoy watching messi and co in la liga but wish he would join a top premier lg side, imagine messi in the prem.

at least that late messi mess-up keeps the 2nd leg alive..just about. but I think messi will be in the mood to atone for his miss..even tho he doesn't have to as he was on top form, he looked really annoyed when the final whistle went. lol.
 

brokenshoelace

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Chelsea and their risk-averse brand of Football are deservedly out despite terrible refereeing in their favor. Good riddance.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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Chelsea lost even after super zlatan was sent off. champions league ?..you're having a laugh.

another early red card for shakthar Donetsk but Bayern munich didn't screw up and won 7-0.
 

Kieran

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I don't like Barce, but I can't stand Pep, or Bayern, so I'm glad. last year Real thrashed Bayern, and now it looks like barce are determined to rub their noses in it, with vengeance for the 7-0... :clap
 

brokenshoelace

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Messi is the greatest player in Football history at the club level, and it's not even close.

Here's what astounds me about Messi, let's look at the great players of the previous generations in the past 25 years or so: Roberto Baggio, Zidane, Brazlian Ronaldo, Henry, Ronaldinho, etc... These guys are ridiculously good. Yet there is a clear, WIDE gap between Messi and them. I mean, Zidane was the greatest player I've ever seen this side of Diego Maradona, and I legitimately can't even offer a devil's advocate argument for him being as good as Messi.
 

Federberg

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^I think that's the perfect way to define Messi's place in football BS. His lack of achievement in international football is quite glaring, but at club level he has been extraordinary, even if one could argue he plays in a team with incredible players which always helps. I would still give him the edge. There have been players who've briefly played at his level, but it's the consistency which is ridiculous.

One player who played at that level - for me - albeit briefly was Brazilian Ronaldo. To this day I have never seen a player (when he was at Barcelona primarily but to some extent at Inter as well) who was so clearly better than everyone else on the pitch (skill, power, pace, goalscoring) it almost seemed like you had a pro player playing as a ringer in a Sunday league match.
 

brokenshoelace

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federberg said:
^I think that's the perfect way to define Messi's place in football BS. His lack of achievement in international football is quite glaring, but at club level he has been extraordinary, even if one could argue he plays in a team with incredible players which always helps. I would still give him the edge. There have been players who've briefly played at his level, but it's the consistency which is ridiculous.

One player who played at that level - for me - albeit briefly was Brazilian Ronaldo. To this day I have never seen a player (when he was at Barcelona primarily but to some extent at Inter as well) who was so clearly better than everyone else on the pitch (skill, power, pace, goalscoring) it almost seemed like you had a pro player playing as a ringer in a Sunday league match.

Brazilian Ronaldo reached the "highest highs" out of any player I've ever seen with the exception of Messi, and I'd argue he's the only one that comes close to the Argentine at his best. If there was a magical button that allows players to play their absolute best every game, Brazilian Ronaldo would have had a case for being the best ever. As it stands, he's the greatest striker ever, which isn't bad to say the least.

Here's how good Ronaldo was. People's memory of him is distorted. They mainly remember his 2002 World Cup exploits and his time at Real Madrid and think "wow, this guy was so good." Funny thing is, that wasn't close to Ronaldo's best. At that time, he was fat and out of shape, and yet still was the world's best striker. But that is nothing compared to his year at Barcelona and his first two years at Inter before that knee injury which ruined him forever (and by ruined him I mean he still went on to become the greatest striker of all time... a testament to how good he was).

I also don't think I've ever seen a player, including Messi, who terrorized defenses the way Ronaldo did in his prime. He was literally unstoppable. At least with Messi, there are certain things you can do IN THEORY to stop him (force him to his weaker foot, have the defensive midfielder help the defender out immediately before Messi receives the ball to limit space, etc...). I don't know what you can do against Brazilian Ronaldo. He also shined in the Serie A when it was by far the toughest league in the world to score in and had probably the most robust defensive talent in history (Nesta, Cannavaro, Maldini, Thuram, to name a few. All in their prime). And it's quite a testament when all four named Ronaldo as the toughest opponent they've ever had to face (Maldini also named Maradona, which tells you all you need to know).
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Speaking of strikers, I have to admit I have a really soft spot for Marco van Basten. In terms of using both feet, head and dribbling skills for his size, the guy always amazed me. he did not have the power game of a Ronaldo for sure but boy he had skill on the ground.
Quick reminder of some of his stuff with Ajax, Milan and the national team:

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3W1c4TO4M[/video]
 

Federberg

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Broken_Shoelace said:
federberg said:
^I think that's the perfect way to define Messi's place in football BS. His lack of achievement in international football is quite glaring, but at club level he has been extraordinary, even if one could argue he plays in a team with incredible players which always helps. I would still give him the edge. There have been players who've briefly played at his level, but it's the consistency which is ridiculous.

One player who played at that level - for me - albeit briefly was Brazilian Ronaldo. To this day I have never seen a player (when he was at Barcelona primarily but to some extent at Inter as well) who was so clearly better than everyone else on the pitch (skill, power, pace, goalscoring) it almost seemed like you had a pro player playing as a ringer in a Sunday league match.

Brazilian Ronaldo reached the "highest highs" out of any player I've ever seen with the exception of Messi, and I'd argue he's the only one that comes close to the Argentine at his best. If there was a magical button that allows players to play their absolute best every game, Brazilian Ronaldo would have had a case for being the best ever. As it stands, he's the greatest striker ever, which isn't bad to say the least.

Here's how good Ronaldo was. People's memory of him is distorted. They mainly remember his 2002 World Cup exploits and his time at Real Madrid and think "wow, this guy was so good." Funny thing is, that wasn't close to Ronaldo's best. At that time, he was fat and out of shape, and yet still was the world's best striker. But that is nothing compared to his year at Barcelona and his first two years at Inter before that knee injury which ruined him forever (and by ruined him I mean he still went on to become the greatest striker of all time... a testament to how good he was).

I also don't think I've ever seen a player, including Messi, who terrorized defenses the way Ronaldo did in his prime. He was literally unstoppable. At least with Messi, there are certain things you can do IN THEORY to stop him (force him to his weaker foot, have the defensive midfielder help the defender out immediately before Messi receives the ball to limit space, etc...). I don't know what you can do against Brazilian Ronaldo. He also shined in the Serie A when it was by far the toughest league in the world to score in and had probably the most robust defensive talent in history (Nesta, Cannavaro, Maldini, Thuram, to name a few. All in their prime). And it's quite a testament when all four named Ronaldo as the toughest opponent they've ever had to face (Maldini also named Maradona, which tells you all you need to know).

BS.. we're so in synch on this it's a wonder we ever disagree! :lolz:
 

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1972Murat said:
Speaking of strikers, I have to admit I have a really soft spot for Marco van Basten. In terms of using both feet, head and dribbling skills for his size, the guy always amazed me. he did not have the power game of a Ronaldo for sure but boy he had skill on the ground.
Quick reminder of some of his stuff with Ajax, Milan and the national team:

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3W1c4TO4M[/video]

He was awesome. An honourable mention to Romario and Ian Rush as well. When any 3 of those guys got the ball anywhere near the box, they just seemed to score. We don't see strikers like that anymore sadly
 

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I was in Italy the year Ronaldo de Lima transferred to Inter from Barcelona, and the Italians were always keen to show that they could bring down his goal average, because they maintained that the marking in Spain was not good enough. Ronaldo played exceptionally, even in his first year in Italy, which was unheard of. Most foreigners took at least a year to adjust to playing in Italy. He was so good that even the Italians, who are normally difficult to please, began calling him 'il fenomeno'. In my opinion he could have won the Serie A that same year, but for some dodgy refereeing. The way he went past the likes of Maldini, Nesta and Cannavaro was unbelievable. However one could still see that Ronaldo found it much tougher, because the Italians really know how to defend, both individually and as a defensive unit. Goals in which he made multiple dribble became very rare when he was in Italy. On the whole I think he passed the test with flying colors. The Italian experience, I think, helped him to handle difficult matches because he was able to play a lot of them (against Milan, Juventus, Parma, Lazio, Roma, Fiorentina...) I also think that it helped him subsequently in his career, at club level and national level. Also in Italy it was not uncommon that a superstar was allowed to touch the ball only a handful of times in 90 minutes. They were very good at shutting down top players.

Messi is a special talent, who reminds me of Ronaldo de Lima. When he has the ball on his feet, people hold their breath expecting magic to happen. He has been able to play consistently at a high level, in a team that has also allowed him to play at those levels. I was kind of disappointed with his WC 2010 performance because I wanted to him to do well. Its always a great story when a superstar like Messi does well in a big tournament like a WC. He came very close in 2014 , but still he did not shine as a player. I suspect Messi's problem in the national team is largely mental. Playing in a machine like the Barcelona team is almost perfect for a superstar like Messi. I have the feeling that when he goes to play for Argentina, there is a sea change in team quality, even though Argentina has great players too. I feel that if Messi goes to a team like Chelsea, Man City, Juventus or Mann U, he will develop mentally because he will have to dig a bit deeper to produce great performances. Those teams are still formidable but they are at least a step below Barcelona. It will help him suffer a little bit more because those teams are not always attacking powerhouses, unlike Barcelona which controls the rhythm of play in almost every match. If he gets used to playing difficult matches in which he may not touch the ball for long periods of time, he will learn how to be more efficient in the national team as well.
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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Barcelona in the champions league final..it was strange sitting there thinking..and all Bayern need is 5 goals without conceding and they've done it..

..but they never did it..Leadwindowski scored a classic for Bayern tho..a feint, a dummy, and GOAL.
 

atttomole

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This tie was decided in the first leg. It was clear that Bayern missed their two wingers, but I don't know if the result would have been different if Robben and Ribery had played.
 

britbox

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Messi is the greatest player in Football history at the club level, and it's not even close.

Here's what astounds me about Messi, let's look at the great players of the previous generations in the past 25 years or so: Roberto Baggio, Zidane, Brazlian Ronaldo, Henry, Ronaldinho, etc... These guys are ridiculously good. Yet there is a clear, WIDE gap between Messi and them. I mean, Zidane was the greatest player I've ever seen this side of Diego Maradona, and I legitimately can't even offer a devil's advocate argument for him being as good as Messi.

I'd put Messi above Zidane also and at club level he's one of the greatest players I've seen without a doubt. Still, the best player I've witnessed was Maradona. Largely because he could carry very average teams. He almost single handedly won 2 Serie A titles with an average supporting cast at Napoli and carried the Argentina national team to the 86 World Cup.

Most underrated "great" player I've witnessed was Zico. I loved watching that guy play - it was like poetry in motion.
 

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I agree Britbox. I've almost given up defending Diego. I personally rate him above Messi for precisely that reason. Watching Maradona you got the impression he could have played for Crewe Alexandria and got them into the premier league. But with Messi I have serious doubts that he could elevate even a team like Athletic Bilbao to contest for La Liga. I think his potential is only revealed when he has good players around him. Just my opinion.

This is also one of the reasons why I would always put Brazilian Ronaldo above Zidane. Brazilian Ronaldo could elevate teams while I'm not so sure how much Zidane could do in that regard. I recall arguing strongly with a good friend of mine who has always claimed that if he was a manager with the pick of any player in the world, his first name on his shopping list would be Ronaldo not Messi. He claimed that with Ronaldo at least you don't have to fit a team around him. For years I was opposed to that idea, but over time I've had to concede that he's right
 

atttomole

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federberg said:
I agree Britbox. I've almost given up defending Diego. I personally rate him above Messi for precisely that reason. Watching Maradona you got the impression he could have played for Crewe Alexandria and got them into the premier league. But with Messi I have serious doubts that he could elevate even a team like Athletic Bilbao to contest for La Liga. I think his potential is only revealed when he has good players around him. Just my opinion.

This is also one of the reasons why I would always put Brazilian Ronaldo above Zidane. Brazilian Ronaldo could elevate teams while I'm not so sure how much Zidane could do in that regard. I recall arguing strongly with a good friend of mine who has always claimed that if he was a manager with the pick of any player in the world, his first name on his shopping list would be Ronaldo not Messi. He claimed that with Ronaldo at least you don't have to fit a team around him. For years I was opposed to that idea, but over time I've had to concede that he's right

I agree with this. The thing with Ronaldo is that he could play the lone striker's role so well that you just needed to give him the ball and he did the rest. Ronaldo changed teams in a short space of time after going to Europe at age 17, and each time he was dominant. At PSV I remember he scored 5 goals in a UEFA cup match against Werder Bremen and he was only 18. He went to Barcelona and had super season as well, winning the UEFA Cup Winners Cup, World Player of the Year and the pichichi, and was only 20. At Inter he missed the Serie A title by a whisker, but won the UEFA Cup and won the World Footballer of the Year again at age 21. It is hard to believe that he was only 21 when he went to WC 1998 as the world's top player. This is an age at which most players are still learning the tricks of the trade.
I think Messi could be just as decisive if had the courage to leave Barcelona. He should go to a place where he will learn to suffer a little bit. A place where sometimes he may be forced to play off positing due to tactics, and learn to handle the pressure. The Barcelona environment is like utopia for a super star like him. However, I understand that leaving Barca would not be the wisest thing to do for him because it is his comfort zone, and it is an environment where he has always played, so there are risks to doing that. Besides that, he gets to make important decisions at Barcelona and he is well paid there.