Serious PC thread

[Federberg]

This Nicola Sturgeon thing in Scotland with the rapist transgender dude is absolutely delicious. It might be the snowball that rolls down a hill and crushes all this nonsense. She's utterly fucked. She used this gender law to try to win Scottish Independence, and now the press won't stop asking her if the dude she was referring to as 'her' is a woman. She's trying to fudge the issue and say 'she' isn't appropriate for a woman's prison. But if she's a woman why not?? It's sooo good! Hopefully all these progressive fuckwits like Trudeau are watching and realising they are sealing their own damnation.

PS, I'm of course referring to their damnation on earth. They're all going to hell. I'm sure there's a 13th circle being made for them. The men will have their dicks pulled off and messed with by their own equipment. And the woman can suckle off their ripped off tits. Enjoy that shit for eternity. A-holes...

 

[El Dude]

This was very good and on-point, and from a left/labor perspective of the problem of "diversity" and "identity politics" as a whole, and how it is used to divide and conquer the populace and, more than anything, keep the working class from uniting:

 

[Kieran]

This Nicola Sturgeon thing in Scotland with the rapist transgender dude is absolutely delicious. It might be the snowball that rolls down a hill and crushes all this nonsense. She's utterly fucked. She used this gender law to try to win Scottish Independence, and now the press won't stop asking her if the dude she was referring to as 'her' is a woman. She's trying to fudge the issue and say 'she' isn't appropriate for a woman's prison. But if she's a woman why not?? It's sooo good! Hopefully all these progressive fuckwits like Trudeau are watching and realising they are sealing their own damnation.

PS, I'm of course referring to their damnation on earth. They're all going to hell. I'm sure there's a 13th circle being made for them. The men will have their dicks pulled off and messed with by their own equipment. And the woman can suckle off their ripped off tits. Enjoy that shit for eternity. A-holes...

The Church of England is now Scotland! You really couldn’t keep up with these faddists, the dedicated followers of fashion, the unprincipled:

 

[britbox]

The Church of England is now Scotland! You really couldn’t keep up with these faddists, the dedicated followers of fashion, the unprincipled:

View attachment 7734

I suspect Catholicism won't be far behind.

 

[Kieran]

I suspect Catholicism won't be far behind.

The Catholic Church has safeguards against innovations like this, but if we have too many popes like Francis, we might unfortunately see a pope try this one on for size. It’s a terrific giveaway that the CoE is more fixated on the office water cooler than on God. “Be in the world, but not of the world” - indeed!

 

[britbox]

The Catholic Church has safeguards against innovations like this, but if we have too many popes like Francis, we might unfortunately see a pope try this one on for size. It’s a terrific giveaway that the CoE is more fixated on the office water cooler than on God. “Be in the world, but not of the world” - indeed!

Well, the institution was founded on adultery, divorce, murder and theft. Not exactly the solid foundations you'd choose to weather the storms ahead.

 

[Kieran]

Well, the institution was founded on adultery, divorce, murder and theft. Not exactly the solid foundations you'd choose to weather the storms ahead.

Really?

 

[britbox]

Really?

Didn't you study Henry VIII over the water?

 

[Kieran]

Didn't you study Henry VIII over the water?

Oh sorry yes, I get you now! I agree, and in Protestantism there’s always been competition and innovation. The worry of course as you say is that change in society, fads and fashions, threaten everything. Politics is poison, and it’s everywhere. Recently the church sent a circular questionnaire asking what people thought were the most pressing matters for the bishops synod. You can guess what people thought they were: none of them related to Catholic spirituality, education or practice. All of them were related to the usual lowbrow, divisive identity politics, gender thingies, inclusive wotnots…

 

[tented]

I’m being purposefully provocative by asking, Why do we even need the word “gender” if we already have the word “sex”? What sex is someone: female or male. What gender is someone: female or male. In my mind, they’ve been interchangeable until the last 5 or so years.

 

[Kieran]

I’m being purposefully provocative by asking, Why do we even need the word “gender” if we already have the word “sex”? What sex is someone: female or male. What gender is someone: female or male. In my mind, they’ve been interchangeable until the last 5 or so years.

Yep. A biological male was of the male gender, and the female sex was tied to the female gender, according to nature, science, history and tradition, and we all knew this until about five minutes ago. Then suddenly we’re expected to swallow a lie without question.

Weird, isn’t it, to be alive right now?

 

[Horsa]

I’m being purposefully provocative by asking, Why do we even need the word “gender” if we already have the word “sex”? What sex is someone: female or male. What gender is someone: female or male. In my mind, they’ve been interchangeable until the last 5 or so years.

Maybe so, but I always use the word gender because it sounds nicer & differentiates the act from the classification of people according to the genitalia they possess.

 

[Kieran]

Maybe so, but I always use the word gender because it sounds nicer & differentiates the act from the classification of people according to the genitalia they possess.

Interesting way of putting it..

 

[Horsa]

Interesting way of putting it..

That was the most euphemistic way I could think of expressing my opinion on the matter.

 

[mrzz]

I’m being purposefully provocative by asking, Why do we even need the word “gender” if we already have the word “sex”? What sex is someone: female or male. What gender is someone: female or male. In my mind, they’ve been interchangeable until the last 5 or so years.

I know I won't be saying anything exactly new, but here we go:

I guess the idea behind gender, if we try to go beyond dictionary definitions, is that there is a set of characteristics that are inherently linked to some higher level category which, for some cases (but not necessarily all) are present in individuals of a given biological sex. It is like there were something like "maleness" that would go beyond merely possesing testicles -- which is something that has some sense, and that dialogs well with what @Horsa has written above.

Put there is a giant catch: once you assume that there is this ultimate almost ethereal concept that preceds all else, how you identify it? There are two different ways:

1) You leave to the individual to arbitrarily claim that he can identify it (and thus self-identify himself), or;

2) you try to agree on some sort of list of attributes that would undoubtly identity such concept.

What is the problem with both approaches above? They are, by definition, completely subjective. Hence, they are *useless* to classify people, as different people would have their own peculiar criteria.

 

[Kieran]

Interesting responses by @Horsa and @mrzz which seem to align with what these evolutionary biologists say. Put succinctly, they say that “gender is the software of sex.” It’s an interesting discussion this because really, modern gender theory is an innovation which obviously tries to squirt itself into the subjective areas that mrzz outlines, but had it any grounds to do this? Well, if you believe that there is no objective “truth”, basically you’ll believe anything.

The video is only 4 minutes long but they also address trans in this and another similar, longer video.

 

[tented]

Interesting responses by @Horsa and @mrzz which seem to align with what these evolutionary biologists say. Put succinctly, they say that “gender is the software of sex.” It’s an interesting discussion this because really, modern gender theory is an innovation which obviously tries to squirt itself into the subjective areas that mrzz outlines, but had it any grounds to do this? Well, if you believe that there is no objective “truth”, basically you’ll believe anything.

The video is only 4 minutes long but they also address trans in this and another similar, longer video.

I like Heather Heying’s comment: “In non-human organisms, the thing that we call gender in humans we call ‘sex role‘ and it’s effectively the behavioral component that is mostly predictable from what sex you are.” She goes on to give an interesting example of how certain fish can change their sex (i.e., go from being male and producing sperm, then become female and have ovaries), and as a result, the behavior also changes. Great video!

 

[tented]

I know I won't be saying anything exactly new, but here we go:

I guess the idea behind gender, if we try to go beyond dictionary definitions, is that there is a set of characteristics that are inherently linked to some higher level category which, for some cases (but not necessarily all) are present in individuals of a given biological sex. It is like there were something like "maleness" that would go beyond merely possesing testicles -- which is something that has some sense, and that dialogs well with what @Horsa has written above.

Put there is a giant catch: once you assume that there is this ultimate almost ethereal concept that preceds all else, how you identify it? There are two different ways:

1) You leave to the individual to arbitrarily claim that he can identify it (and thus self-identify himself), or;

2) you try to agree on some sort of list of attributes that would undoubtly identity such concept.

What is the problem with both approaches above? They are, by definition, completely subjective. Hence, they are *useless* to classify people, as different people would have their own peculiar criteria.

I looked up “gender” in the Oxford English Dictionary, and found these two — 3a & 3b — which are relevant (the others are about the use of gender in language and electronics.) Note the phrase “originally extended from the grammatical use” which I find interesting, and that the 3b usage it cited as coming from the US, and aligns with Heying’s definition I quoted above.

3a. gen. Males or females viewed as a group; = sex n.1 1. Also: the property or fact of belonging to one of these groups.

Originally extended from the grammatical use at sense 1 (sometimes humorously), as also in Anglo-Norman and Old French. In the 20th cent., as sex came increasingly to mean sexual intercourse (see sex n.1 4b), gender began to replace it (in early use euphemistically) as the usual word for the biological grouping of males and females. It is now often merged with or coloured by sense 3b.

Quotations:
1474 in C. L. Kingsford Stonor Lett. & Papers (1919) I. 142 (MED) His heyres of the masculine gender of his body lawfully begoten.
a1500 (▸a1460) Towneley Plays (1994) I. xxx. 408 Has thou oght writen there Of the femynyn gendere?
1580 W. Fulke Retentiue 92 For there is but one Lord..both of men and of Angels, which doth not onely exclude all other Lordes of the masculine gender, but much more all Ladyes.
1632 S. Marmion Hollands Leaguer iii. iv. sig. g4v Here's a woman: The soule of Hercules has got into her. She has a spirit, is more masculine, Then the first gender.
1656 Earl of Monmouth tr. T. Boccalini Ragguagli di Parnasso 135 Strength..was a vertue attributed to the masculine gender.
1719 J. Harris Astron. Dialogues 141 I think the Poets make her change her Sex, and turn He-Thing, as if she could not be as useful when of our Gender, as of yours.
1723 Lady M. W. Montagu Let. 7 Dec. (1966) II. 33 Of the fair Sex..my only Consolation for being of that Gender has been the assurance it gave me of never being marry'd to any one amongst them.
1818 T. H. Bayly Parl. Lett. 32 The women adore you, and call you defender, And friend to the rights of the feminine gender.
1868 Radical 3 386 A very modest lady acquaintance of ours can bake bread, shoot a gun, ride a horse... Yet she is not an exception to the radical capacity of her gender.
1896 Daily News 17 July 6/4 As to one's success in the work one does, surely that is not a question of gender either.
1936 Mademoiselle Mar. 43/1 I find I belong to the wrong gender to take part in such confabulations.
1970 Sunday Times 29 Nov. 29/2 Adolescents of both genders strode along..with books and long flaxen unisexual hair.
2009 Daily Record (Glasgow) (Nexis) 21 Oct. 35 While the majority of paedophiles are male, there is a substantial minority who are women. But whatever their gender there is no excuse for their behaviour.

3b. Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.

Quotations:
1945 Amer. Jrnl. Psychol. 58 228 In the grade-school years, too, gender (which is the socialized obverse of sex) is a fixed line of demarkation, the qualifying terms being ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’.
1950 Amer. Jrnl. Psychol. 63 312 It [sc. Margaret Mead's Male and Female] informs the reader upon ‘gender’ as well as upon ‘sex’, upon masculine and feminine rôles as well as upon male and female and their reproductive functions.
1968 Life 21 June 89 When the separation of fashions according to gender began to vanish, retailers discovered a bonanza.
1978 D. Pearce in Urban & Social Change Rev. 11 i–ii. 35/1 The major implication for policy of both the feminization of poverty and the..labor-force participation of welfare mothers is that gender cannot be ignored.
1981 Heresies No. 12. 67/3 Our ideology and practice of sex roles construct..two mutually exclusive categories, that is, genders.
2007 New Yorker 6 Aug. 13/2 There's no breaking news here—identity and gender have been on the contemporary-art docket for years.

 

[Kieran]

I looked up “gender” in the Oxford English Dictionary, and found these two — 3a & 3b — which are relevant (the others are about the use of gender in language and electronics.) Note the phrase “originally extended from the grammatical use” which I find interesting, and that the 3b usage it cited as coming from the US, and aligns with Heying’s definition I quoted above.

3a. gen. Males or females viewed as a group; = sex n.1 1. Also: the property or fact of belonging to one of these groups.

Originally extended from the grammatical use at sense 1 (sometimes humorously), as also in Anglo-Norman and Old French. In the 20th cent., as sex came increasingly to mean sexual intercourse (see sex n.1 4b), gender began to replace it (in early use euphemistically) as the usual word for the biological grouping of males and females. It is now often merged with or coloured by sense 3b.

Quotations:
1474 in C. L. Kingsford Stonor Lett. & Papers (1919) I. 142 (MED) His heyres of the masculine gender of his body lawfully begoten.
a1500 (▸a1460) Towneley Plays (1994) I. xxx. 408 Has thou oght writen there Of the femynyn gendere?
1580 W. Fulke Retentiue 92 For there is but one Lord..both of men and of Angels, which doth not onely exclude all other Lordes of the masculine gender, but much more all Ladyes.
1632 S. Marmion Hollands Leaguer iii. iv. sig. g4v Here's a woman: The soule of Hercules has got into her. She has a spirit, is more masculine, Then the first gender.
1656 Earl of Monmouth tr. T. Boccalini Ragguagli di Parnasso 135 Strength..was a vertue attributed to the masculine gender.
1719 J. Harris Astron. Dialogues 141 I think the Poets make her change her Sex, and turn He-Thing, as if she could not be as useful when of our Gender, as of yours.
1723 Lady M. W. Montagu Let. 7 Dec. (1966) II. 33 Of the fair Sex..my only Consolation for being of that Gender has been the assurance it gave me of never being marry'd to any one amongst them.
1818 T. H. Bayly Parl. Lett. 32 The women adore you, and call you defender, And friend to the rights of the feminine gender.
1868 Radical 3 386 A very modest lady acquaintance of ours can bake bread, shoot a gun, ride a horse... Yet she is not an exception to the radical capacity of her gender.
1896 Daily News 17 July 6/4 As to one's success in the work one does, surely that is not a question of gender either.
1936 Mademoiselle Mar. 43/1 I find I belong to the wrong gender to take part in such confabulations.
1970 Sunday Times 29 Nov. 29/2 Adolescents of both genders strode along..with books and long flaxen unisexual hair.
2009 Daily Record (Glasgow) (Nexis) 21 Oct. 35 While the majority of paedophiles are male, there is a substantial minority who are women. But whatever their gender there is no excuse for their behaviour.

3b. Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.

Quotations:
1945 Amer. Jrnl. Psychol. 58 228 In the grade-school years, too, gender (which is the socialized obverse of sex) is a fixed line of demarkation, the qualifying terms being ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’.
1950 Amer. Jrnl. Psychol. 63 312 It [sc. Margaret Mead's Male and Female] informs the reader upon ‘gender’ as well as upon ‘sex’, upon masculine and feminine rôles as well as upon male and female and their reproductive functions.
1968 Life 21 June 89 When the separation of fashions according to gender began to vanish, retailers discovered a bonanza.
1978 D. Pearce in Urban & Social Change Rev. 11 i–ii. 35/1 The major implication for policy of both the feminization of poverty and the..labor-force participation of welfare mothers is that gender cannot be ignored.
1981 Heresies No. 12. 67/3 Our ideology and practice of sex roles construct..two mutually exclusive categories, that is, genders.
2007 New Yorker 6 Aug. 13/2 There's no breaking news here—identity and gender have been on the contemporary-art docket for years.

That’s interesting. There’s nothing here about it being fluid or interchangeable or there’s being about 672 genders? Gives me hope for dictionaries!

 

[tented]

That’s interesting. There’s nothing here about it being fluid or interchangeable or there’s being about 672 genders? Gives me hope for dictionaries!

I checked that, and it is there. But keep in mind, the OED is not a standard dictionary. It’s a documentation of usage: if someone uses a word or phrase, they include it, hence their well-known usage of quotations/citations of where they were found.

gender-fluid adj. (a) (in early use) not clearly or wholly male or female; androgynous; (b) designating a person who does not identify with a single fixed gender; of or relating to a person having or expressing a fluid or unfixed gender identity (now the usual sense).
Quotations:
1987 Christianity & Crisis 12 Jan. 463/1 The dispelling of a more fluid, androgynous imagery.., [the] driving out of metaphorical, mystical, and gender-fluid imagery for God in the mainline Reformation has promoted a number of revolts.
1993 Out June 22/1 Suede inspires Gender-fluid fans to storm the stage and shower ‘bisexual but celibate’ singer Brett Anderson with hugs and kisses.
1996 Re: Womyn born Womyn in soc.women.lesbian-and-bi (Usenet newsgroup) 13 May I am not gender fluid, tho I can take on either *role* at times.
2015 Columbia Spectator (Columbia Univ, N.Y.) (Nexis) 13 Oct. 1 Science is also beginning to help us understand the neuroscience behind trans and genderfluid identities.