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Kieran

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In the interests of fairness, conservatives often get the trans issue wrong from another side, and in this video, one of my favourite YouTubers gets to take down a conservative (and colleague of Matt Walsh) for suggesting a very foolish and unfreedom-loving way of dealing with the malignant, woman-hating tiktoker Dylan Mulvaney.

 
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Moxie

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when I say put to the blade I don't just mean gender re-assignment surgery, I also mean that they are given hormone treatment. Yes it happens. And as for extreme social discomfort, that's life! We all have crosses to bear. Should minorities be offered surgeries to alter their appearance to become white because of 'social discomfort? Are the painfully shy to be given drugs to 'normal'? Or should children be taught how to adapt and overcome, and win in the game of life? This is the great failure of education in this age. The preoccupation with victimhood. There's a collective loss of character that doesn't bode well for humanity's future.
It would have been helpful to know that when you say "blade" you mean hormone treatments. You can see what that isn't immediately apparent, and I do think they are two very different options, even if you don't.
A question for my 14 year old self you mean? I very much doubt that I would have been ok with it. Not at that time. I very much doubt that I was equipped to understand that he was born that way. We would probably all have thought that we could become gay from proximity to him, and even worse we would almost certainly have been ostracized by association with him. That's just the honest truth. It was the early 80s after all. There were suspicions about other kids, but they were unpopular.
I appreciate your honesty. I think it's much easier for kids to come out now than it was, in great part because straight kids are exposed to gay people in their lives, so it doesn't seem so weird. Back in the day, we barely understood what was going on with our own straight sexuality, let alone having any road map for understanding someone else's otherwise sexuality. Don't get me wrong: being a tween-/teenager is always going to be difficult and confusing, but at least there are more role models for everyone, to help normalize things.
we can certainly agree on that. Treating individual kids with understanding is correct and proper. How the issue is approached at large is the problem! This is gender dysphoria, and psychological treatment is appropriate. Creating a hysteria around the issue that draws unpopular kids and those who are lost into the web is completely wrong
I appreciate that we agree on it.
I don't see why self pity is necessary here. We are having a discussion about something important. None of us who have views in opposition to yours are the sort of people who can abide cancel culture, I feel confident saying that. I for one am happy to hear out an opposing view, particularly one that is factual. I'll credit you with one thing, you've subtly changed your position over time. That's too the good. Stick around, we might turn you completely yet :face-with-tears-of-joy:
Come on...a few of you guys have been pretty mean, and pretty dismissive of my attempts at discussion.

I haven't really changed my position (much?) that I can see. I've always been against trans-women competing with cis-women in sports. I will say, I was surprised at how widely it was allowed to go on, which I was poo-pooing when you guys first called it out. If I conceded anything, it was that you were right that it was more of a worry that it would be allowed to happen, do to over-PC pussy-footing. (Can we say "pussy-footing" anymore? :lulz1: ) I have said that I think there is a certain faddishness around non-binary, but that is more down to personal experience of kids I know than anything said here. I don't mind refining my thinking as more is learned, but our basic and strong differences on the topic will probably remain unchanged. But I do get the joke that you might "turn" me yet. :face-with-tears-of-joy::smooch:
 
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britbox

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men have held sway over the world and held sway over women? This is the typical bs that's getting intolerable. Men held sway of the world because the world was dangerous and needed to be tamed.... to protect women and children. That last bit is what is constantly ignored. The power base has been evened out, in fact one could make the case that the pendulum has swung the other way. Women might suffer sexual humiliation but they also exploit their sexuality at the same time, there's balance in everything. I see absolutely no reason why men in this current day and age should pay for the perceived injustices of the past. Miss me with that. We live in a world where women get punished less than men for the same crimes. They get infantilised, allowed not to hold themselves accountable, to promote misandry on social media that's far worse than anything this Andrew Tate character got de-platformed for and nobody blinks. Meanwhile there's a silent epidemic of male suicides happening underneath our eyes and no one gives a shit. Women like Amber Heard can destroy a man, with precious little criminal consequence, at least she's being made to pay in the civil courts. But when a man can go to jail because of paternity fraud and when the truth comes out there's no criminal punishment for the perpetrator? There's a problem. So miss me with female victimhood, there's victimisation going around and only women are permitted to whine about it. I believe in equality, equality requires accountability, but the sense I have from this new wave of feminism is that equality is desired only when it benefits, and that's just bullshit...
Speaking of Andrew Tate... he states the obvious.



He's talking about the UK... but it's reflected throughout Western Civilization. Nothing organic about it though... all by design.

The nations remain comatose for the large part.
 

Federberg

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I'm a bit confused by this. Was there actual sexual harassment or are they just protesting about the policy. If it's the latter then good riddance to the lot of them! As an employee you should care about brand value. I swear to beelzebub the culture of whining and victimhood is exhausting

 
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Moxie

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I'm a bit confused by this. Was there actual sexual harassment or are they just protesting about the policy. If it's the latter then good riddance to the lot of them! As an employee you should care about brand value. I swear to beelzebub the culture of whining and victimhood is exhausting


Did you really listen to this woman? She said there was a culture of sexual harassment at Space X. Is that surprising to you, in a company like Space X? She said that complaints went unheard. They leaned on their "no asshole policy," which apparently means nothing. She also said that if it didn't change from top-down, it would never change, so they called out Musk, for the way he speaks on social media. She and others were fired for writing a complaint letter. This is not the way HR is supposed to work. You OK with that?

You act like the notion that women working in a male-dominated environment is probably mainly fair, and 50/50 chance or better that if they're complaining about harassment or unfair treatment, they're likely just whining. You really believe that?
 
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Federberg

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Did you really listen to this woman? She said there was a culture of sexual harassment at Space X. Is that surprising to you, in a company like Space X? She said that complaints went unheard. They leaned on their "no asshole policy," which apparently means nothing. She also said that if it didn't change from top-down, it would never change, so they called out Musk, for the way he speaks on social media. She and others were fired for writing a complaint letter. This is not the way HR is supposed to work. You OK with that?

You act like the notion that women working in a male-dominated environment is probably mainly fair, and 50/50 chance or better that if they're complaining about harassment or unfair treatment, they're likely just whining. You really believe that?
yes I did listen to her. And what I heard was literally nothing factual. What exactly is a culture of sexual harassment? Let's have truthful examples so we can make a judgment. Miss me with feelings, Amber Heard killed #MeToo, now we need solid evidence. I would support any HR team that decided to let people go who seem to be on for the political clout. I'm open to there being a substantive reason for the complaint, but what I will not do is just believe. Obviously I'm not surprised at your position ;)
 

Kieran

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I’m putting this in here because the actor brings race into it, a racist remark without even knowing it’s racist, I’m sure.

Now imagine complaining that anything is “black as hell,” or “Hispanic as hell” or “Asian as hell?” This normalising of racism against white people will only cause the worst sort of white people to bite back, and the best sort to scrutinise more closely the ones who think it’s okay to be racist towards them.

Simu Liu Slams Tarantino for Anti-Marvel Comments: Golden Age Was ‘White as Hell’

 

Moxie

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yes I did listen to her. And what I heard was literally nothing factual.
She did go to HR, to no effect. You can choose to disbelieve that. It seems you do. But you kind of have to believe something. You did post her comments.
What exactly is a culture of sexual harassment? Let's have truthful examples so we can make a judgment.
A "culture of sexual harassment" is when (I'm going to go with women here, so you don't get confused, and you asked for examples) women get asked to date men in the workplace, and they don't, and they get passed over for good assignments, future work, promotions, recommendations for future work, etc. I'm sure you believe this happens. There is also direct sexual intimidation.

I will give you examples of both: I work freelance in the film business. More than one guy that I refused to date has held it against me for years. Never recommended me ever for work again, even though I'd busted my ass working for his company, and made them money. (I'm talking about more than one man.) They remember it later, as they move on to executive positions in other companies. I try to say genially: "Oh, you might remember me from X company," and he says, "Yes, you're the woman who wouldn't go to dinner with me." You want to know how that makes you feel? Or then you encounter him at another company, and he just makes you endlessly creeped out, by the odd things he says, and just his presence, TBH. Or the guy who corners you in the wardrobe room, blocks the door, and wonders how you'd look in the flimsy wardrobe for the job. And the producer who laughs it off when you tell him it happened. "Oh, he's just like that." (He was a union man and a cokehead. Everyone protected him. Didn't protect me. Except for my fellow PAs, who were tough guys, and just blocked him physically every time he ever tried to get near me again.) Or the one you went out with once, who calls you in the middle of the night and wants to suck your toes. For something like 7 years. You tell him he's a freak, and he's completely astonished you would think so, and thinks you should start over again. (There's a lot more ickiness from that one, but I just had to block him on Facebook, because we're on an industry thread together, and he started responding to my posts. This is 20+ years later.) It's when the cinematographer you're working with screams at you like a madman, but also calls you in the hotel and talks about his masturbatory habits. And then, when you tell the company, a company full of good guys, who like you: the next job they hire him, because they felt they needed him, but don't call you because they don't think you can work together. They didn't ask me if I could deal with him. They never hired him after that, and they did hire me, often, and for a long time, but that was $10K I didn't make because he harassed me, I told the company, and they felt awkward about it.

I could go on. As you can see, these are hard things to quantify, as is the money I didn't make because I didn't date people, or suck their toes. But there IS a culture of sexual harassment, if that helps you understand it, in a lot of industries, with no relief from HR. (There isn't really HR in my industry.) I hope this also helps you understand how demeaning it can be, even if you don't get raped or assaulted. It may seem subtle to you, but it's not that subtle. And it has directly and indirectly cost me money.
Miss me with feelings, Amber Heard killed #MeToo, now we need solid evidence. I would support any HR team that decided to let people go who seem to be on for the political clout. I'm open to there being a substantive reason for the complaint, but what I will not do is just believe. Obviously I'm not surprised at your position ;)
I know Amber Heard did a number on your head. You've said so. I'm sort of surprised that you got so caught up in a big TMZ story, but I caution you against using one story as the be-all, when the real travesty is the opposite.
 

Federberg

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She did go to HR, to no effect. You can choose to disbelieve that. It seems you do. But you kind of have to believe something. You did post her comments.
Go to HR for what?? Facts, substance... there was nothing. That doesn't seem to matter to you, but it does to me.

A "culture of sexual harassment" is when (I'm going to go with women here, so you don't get confused, and you asked for examples) women get asked to date men in the workplace, and they don't, and they get passed over for good assignments, future work, promotions, recommendations for future work, etc. I'm sure you believe this happens. There is also direct sexual intimidation.
Did that happen in this case, because no situation was described. And by the way, short of dating apps these days how are people supposed to connect. Are you suggesting that all workplace approaches are now proscribed? Because #MeToo was about power imbalances? Women also make approaches in the workplace too you know? The situations you've described from your personal experience are bad. If she had brought up specific examples like that we could make a judgement, but she didn't.

I know Amber Heard did a number on your head. You've said so. I'm sort of surprised that you got so caught up in a big TMZ story, but I caution you against using one story as the be-all, when the real travesty is the opposite.
Do you get that you're doing exactly the same thing? Taking your personal experiences and assuming that's what she's talking about? Miss me on the assumptions. As for Amber Heard, she's the gateway for sure. It was instructive. It is no longer acceptable to believe all women. Why should I believe this one? It's quite clear that some women will lie for their own personal advantage. We have to live in a world of facts, and not suppositions and feelings. Just look at Chris Brown. That dude has had his entire career derailed. For years I wrote the guy off, only to learn that by Rihanna's own admission, she was the aggressor. She was attacking him in his Lamborghini, while he was driving, at 19 years of age. He defended himself, and no doubt was more violent that necessary because he was trying not have an accident. He took accountability for his actions, but has she ever publicly made it known that she was also culpable? Her career has gone on from strength to strength while his plateaued. Meanwhile a woman like Cardi B has publicly admitted to drugging and assaulting men and stealing from them. If Cardi B was a man do you think she would be walking around free today? Do you think her career would be what it is? If you can't see the injustice and imbalance in this then you are part of the problem. Frankly I'm sad for you that the Amber Heard incident didn't do a number on your head too. It just exposes the fact that you have a bias, that takes away any credibility on these issues.

Here's another example of what toxic feminism can do, if you have the stomach for it. If you're ok with this sort of shit, then that's on you. But excuse me for no longer just believing women. That's ship has sailed..

 

Kieran

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@Federberg and @Kieran will likely find this interesting and at times very amusing, but I'd love @Moxie to watch something like this and get feedback.


I love those lads in Triggernometry. I saw this one a while ago. Although they’re on the left, they’re not the compromised left, the entrapped left - they think for themselves, change their minds when convinced, and argue against the left when it goes rogue and deranged, and for this sensible and honest attitude, they’ve naturally been called “right wing” by the most unthinking segment of the left, who actually believe that to be called “right wing” is an insult…
 

Moxie

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Go to HR for what?? Facts, substance... there was nothing. That doesn't seem to matter to you, but it does to me.


Did that happen in this case, because no situation was described. And by the way, short of dating apps these days how are people supposed to connect. Are you suggesting that all workplace approaches are now proscribed? Because #MeToo was about power imbalances? Women also make approaches in the workplace too you know? The situations you've described from your personal experience are bad. If she had brought up specific examples like that we could make a judgement, but she didn't.


Do you get that you're doing exactly the same thing? Taking your personal experiences and assuming that's what she's talking about? Miss me on the assumptions. As for Amber Heard, she's the gateway for sure. It was instructive. It is no longer acceptable to believe all women. Why should I believe this one? It's quite clear that some women will lie for their own personal advantage. We have to live in a world of facts, and not suppositions and feelings. Just look at Chris Brown. That dude has had his entire career derailed. For years I wrote the guy off, only to learn that by Rihanna's own admission, she was the aggressor. She was attacking him in his Lamborghini, while he was driving, at 19 years of age. He defended himself, and no doubt was more violent that necessary because he was trying not have an accident. He took accountability for his actions, but has she ever publicly made it known that she was also culpable? Her career has gone on from strength to strength while his plateaued. Meanwhile a woman like Cardi B has publicly admitted to drugging and assaulting men and stealing from them. If Cardi B was a man do you think she would be walking around free today? Do you think her career would be what it is? If you can't see the injustice and imbalance in this then you are part of the problem. Frankly I'm sad for you that the Amber Heard incident didn't do a number on your head too. It just exposes the fact that you have a bias, that takes away any credibility on these issues.

Here's another example of what toxic feminism can do, if you have the stomach for it. If you're ok with this sort of shit, then that's on you. But excuse me for no longer just believing women. That's ship has sailed..


This stuff has you so angry it seems to have leeched all of the empathy right out of you.

I didn't follow the Heard thing, and I don't know anything about Rihanna's boyfriend.
 

Federberg

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This stuff has you so angry it seems to have leeched all of the empathy right out of you.

I didn't follow the Heard thing, and I don't know anything about Rihanna's boyfriend.
I thought we agreed we weren't going to diagnose each other's emotional state? ;)

What you're calling empathy would be correctly described as gullibility by an objective observer.

I think I gave a reasonable description of the Rihanna/Chris Brown incident. You can corroborate the substance if you so choose. But based on my description you can make an assessment about whether he has been treated fairly by society and the media in particular. At least in comparison to someone like Cardi B.

Amber Heard is a gold digging C list actress with mental issues, including borderline personality disorder. Not only did Johnny Depp not physically assault her, she assaulted him, her sister, and an ex-partner as well. Her assaults of her sister and ex-partner are fact, check the record. No ex-partner of Johnny Depp has reported any violence on his part. You can listen to hours of their verbal fights on youtube. Go to the Incredibly Average channel. No human being who listens to those recordings comes out of it believing for one second that Depp was an abuser. Not only is he constantly trying to run away from her, but she is also clearly the emotional aggressor trying to beat the guy down. She is a liar, that much is clear if you watched the trial, or listened to her interviews about her charity giving. But the media and these new wave feminists will not accept the truth. Not because they don't know it, but because it's clear they believe that this loss might be untenable for them. They're fighting a battle that's already lost.

You can take my word for it, as all I've said is easy to confirm. I might be wrong, but I sense you would rather continue to claim ignorance than accept the truth
 
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Federberg

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:face-with-tears-of-joy:

1669300334680.png
 
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