Serious PC thread

Moxie

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I really think that was an over-sensitive answer. You read-in too much. You asked if there was a PC angle. I mentioned it was a PC thread.
Sorry...what I meant to write here was, "I really don't think that was an over-sensitive answer," meaning mine to you. When you asked me if there was a PC angle, it didn't make me angry...I just thought it was an odd question.
 
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Kieran

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I'm sure that most of you won't take the hour to listen to this, but it's a great show, generally, in any case. This one starts with kids on school shootings, then goes into a trans kid's story. And not to spoil, but it eventually reminds us what the real danger to kids in the US is...guns. You won't be sorry if you listen to it all the way through.

I haven’t had the time to listen to this, I’ve been flat out busy and an hour long video is not something I have time to listen to, unfortunately, but can you explain why you or the video think that guns are “the real danger to kids in the US?”

I’ll not pro- or anti- guns, and I realise you live in a violent society, which is made worse by certain types of guns, and I’m certainly opposed to any violence that isn’t defensive, but surely both trans and guns are two totally different types of danger to kids? They’re totally different issues. Why do you think guns are “the real danger?”
 

Kieran

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I agree with her on this one


Particularly her reply to the question Rogan asks at 3’30”. This lunacy has infected Ireland too, a pal told his special needs kids teacher that he doesn’t want his kids to be taught sexual education (which includes trans propaganda) in class - he wants them to be allowed to sit out that class, he’ll go to the school and sit in the corridor with his own kids at that time - and the teacher said to him, “You know these people exist?”

My friend is a better man than I am, and he told her politely that he respects everyone’s beliefs and he wants his beliefs respected too. They’re able to groom the kids because the teachers are already groomed. With no science or biology to back it up, no logic behind it that can be discerned, this ideology is still gaining traction, and in twenty years - hell, ten years! - society will be lying in a rubble made by people who don’t believe in truth, and who have a vested interest in overthrowing society, that is dead without it…
 

Moxie

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I haven’t had the time to listen to this, I’ve been flat out busy and an hour long video is not something I have time to listen to, unfortunately, but can you explain why you or the video think that guns are “the real danger to kids in the US?”

I’ll not pro- or anti- guns, and I realise you live in a violent society, which is made worse by certain types of guns, and I’m certainly opposed to any violence that isn’t defensive, but surely both trans and guns are two totally different types of danger to kids? They’re totally different issues. Why do you think guns are “the real danger?”
Sorry, I should have explained that it was a radio program, so, at the very least, you can just listen and do other things. No visuals you are obligated to watch.

I'm happy to tell you all what the point of the whole thing is, and I guess even if you know, the story is well-enough told to enjoy, so it doesn't spoil it.

I understand why you wonder at the conflating of gun violence and trans-kids. I just thought the storytellers did it so well. But as to your question, yes, I do think that gun violence is a serious trauma to kids in the US. You are right that we are a violent society, and it's a shame. Part of the problem, though, is that we get inured to it. The story in the radio program is about how kids in the US deal with the the things that the grown-ups impose on them. One is the constant threat of lock-down, and the actual threat of being shot in school. Grown-ups have the ability to make changes in the gun laws to protect our children, but instead, they keep falling on the 2nd Amendment, (our "right to bear arms,) and wondering why we don't do more about mental health issues, while changing nothing about gun laws, or mental health aid. What children in the US do now to prepare themselves for an eventual shooter is much more shocking than the duck-and-cover drills that kids did in the Cold War era. And for them, it is more real.

The second story is about a trans kid, and his reality. I thought it was worth hearing, because no one was imposing it on him. It also has a lot to do with where he went to the bathroom, and the laws that regulated that, which we have discussed here. And how that made him feel.

The way they draw the stories together at the end is about a rumor on the internet, which has been propagated by many Republican politicians, is that there is a story that some schools now have kitty litter, so that kids who identify as cats have a place to go to the bathroom. That kids are now allowed to identify as cats or dogs, and bark or mew, as they will. Upon investigation, there is nothing to this. The only school district that keeps cat litter turns out to be the one in Colorado, where the Colombine shooting happened years ago. They've been doing it for years. They also keep buckets, so that the kids have a place to pee when they are in lockdown.

I just thought that all of this has something to say to the outrage around here as to the influence on kids, as if they have no self-determination. And also maybe a note about some of the more alarmist ideas around here about what goes on. As in, they might be wrong.

Now I've spoiled all the surprises, but I do think the piece is still worth listening to.
 
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Kieran

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Thanks for breaking it down, sis, and I certainly sympathise with kids who are affected by gun violence.

And I think we all agree about the kids who are genuinely affected by gender dysphoria, a mental illness that confuses them so badly that sometimes to transition is the only way they can cope, though they still realise that they can’t actually change gender, in reality.

But what about all the kids who are affected by persistent and aggressive trans propaganda? What about the kids who are taught that gender is fluid, that there are multiple genders, that they might not be who they know they are? Affected by pressure from school teachers, professors and so-called therapists to “affirm their gender” confusion - which can be a natural and passing fad in childhood? What about the kids suffering chemical castration at the hands of activists? And surgical mutilations? What about the governments that encourage this? What about the many lies kids are expected to believe, and all before breakfast?

Part of the problem, though, is that we get inured to it. The story in the radio program is about how kids in the US deal with the the things that the grown-ups impose on them.

You could be easily talking about trans here. We’re normalising this stuff.

I get it that guns are a problem, and we agree on this, and hopefully someday a party of either side will take the lead and legislate this problem away. Then you’ll still have a violent society but hopefully not weapons that can kill so many people. But trans is a problem, a different problem, and in so many ways an existential problem that’s devouring the whole west.

I know that these issues fall along party lines in the States - the right are largely pro-gun, the left are pushing trans - but these are both problems. The left, remember, tend not to see trans as a problem at all, so therefore it’s easy to see why you might conclude that guns are actually the real problem…
 

Federberg

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isn't it odd that this epidemic of kids being confused about their gender has only started occurring in these modern times? I went to a boarding school as a kid. Quite a big one, and there was never a single incident with a kid thinking they should have been born the other gender. If it was a thing, it would have been a thing in those days. If you wanted to prove the colossal stupidity of these times there's your evidence. I don't understand why this is so difficult to compute. Have people lost their basic common sense? Serious question...

This whole thing is so bizarre and maddening I can't summarily dismiss some of the conspiracy theories that @britbox is so enamoured with. This whole thing is too concerted, too sudden, there must be some rationale behind it. And I find it fucking terrifying. I've always been libertarian, I don't want the government to interfere with my money or my private life. When left of centre parties (and... to be fair the Tory party here, seem to be allowing all sorts of unconscionable shit to happen) are supportive of this degeneracy, then I can't in good conscience support them. I would have a far easier time supporting right of centre parties if they weren't anti-democratic as fuck right now. I pray that someone with common sense comes along to set us back on the right path. I can tell you for free that if at some point De Santis comes out strongly against election denialism I'll be batting in his corner with passion!
 

Kieran

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isn't it odd that this epidemic of kids being confused about their gender has only started occurring in these modern times? I went to a boarding school as a kid. Quite a big one, and there was never a single incident with a kid thinking they should have been born the other gender. If it was a thing, it would have been a thing in those days. If you wanted to prove the colossal stupidity of these times there's your evidence. I don't understand why this is so difficult to compute. Have people lost their basic common sense? Serious question...

This whole thing is so bizarre and maddening I can't summarily dismiss some of the conspiracy theories that @britbox is so enamoured with. This whole thing is too concerted, too sudden, there must be some rationale behind it. And I find it fucking terrifying. I've always been libertarian, I don't want the government to interfere with my money or my private life. When left of centre parties (and... to be fair the Tory party here, seem to be allowing all sorts of unconscionable shit to happen) are supportive of this degeneracy, then I can't in good conscience support them. I would have a far easier time supporting right of centre parties if they weren't anti-democratic as fuck right now. I pray that someone with common sense comes along to set us back on the right path. I can tell you for free that if at some point De Santis comes out strongly against election denialism I'll be batting in his corner with passion!
I think it’s many things. Definitely radical far left revolutionaries are pushing this to destabilise the west. I don’t think they’re an organised underground group but their natural instinct is to do down their own countries and anything that’s counter to their misshapen notions of the “white patriarchal” hegemony is fine with them. Spoilt idiotic brats.

With regards to trans and gender, the notion of gender fluidity is absolutely innovative and not founded on science, logic or history, but because it displays a keen alertness to the possibilities of a genuine human rights struggles (no matter how bogus), and the infringement by dead white European traditions on an expression of personal human rights to be who you want to be, then it seems to a lot of people that this has something in common with feminism, women’s rights, gay rights, race issues, etc - even though these matters are of a wholly different nature.

They are enemies of our ways, and of course the innovative nature of gender ideology should disqualify it from any serious discussion or parroting of its lingo until the truth of it has been argued successfully, and then has been commonly accepted and adopted among the community naturally. This of course won’t happen because they don’t even allow discussion of it, let alone that they should argue for it, and this is because they have no argument for it that makes sense.

With trans, my solution has always been simple: since we all agree that a “transwoman” is a biological male who identifies as a woman, then we should all still be able refer to them as a man. We shouldn’t have ridiculous pronouns forced on us, to repeat and accept as real. We shouldn’t have to play along with the gender ideology hoax. What we all know is real is their biological sex. Their own feelings or how they identify is up to them, and in no way should bother the rest of us. We know why it does, of course, but it shouldn’t. Nobody should be placed under an onus to collude in a lie…
 

Moxie

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Thanks for breaking it down, sis, and I certainly sympathise with kids who are affected by gun violence.

And I think we all agree about the kids who are genuinely affected by gender dysphoria, a mental illness that confuses them so badly that sometimes to transition is the only way they can cope, though they still realise that they can’t actually change gender, in reality.
I'm not sure that mental health professionals agree with you that gender dysphoria is a mental illness.


Specifically in the above article, this quote:

"Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, but some people may develop mental health problems because of gender dysphoria."

But what about all the kids who are affected by persistent and aggressive trans propaganda? What about the kids who are taught that gender is fluid, that there are multiple genders, that they might not be who they know they are? Affected by pressure from school teachers, professors and so-called therapists to “affirm their gender” confusion - which can be a natural and passing fad in childhood? What about the kids suffering chemical castration at the hands of activists? And surgical mutilations? What about the governments that encourage this? What about the many lies kids are expected to believe, and all before breakfast?
I'm just not clear that this propaganda you claim, exists, nor that there is "pressure" from teachers, professors or therapists to "affirm their gender." I think this is rather alarmist and over-determined. I know how upset you are about "chemical castration" and "surgical mutilation" that you feel is being imposed on children, but to say "...at the hands of activists?" Meaning whom? Trans-activists are talking the parents into altering their kids? I'm not sure I find a reasonable argument that anyone is convincing parents that this is a great path for their kids. Yes, there are trans-activists campaigning for their own rights, but there is not a "conversion movement" that I'm aware of. Isn't that a bit like the old Ellen joke that gay people got a toaster for every person they converted to being gay?
You could be easily talking about trans here. We’re normalising this stuff.
Again, I know it upsets you a lot that adults are trying to hear kids with issues, and to help normalize their feelings of "otherness," (by which I mean many things,) but I don't see how it is at all comparable with normalizing the idea of mass-shootings at schools, of kids having to go through school-invasion-by-shooter drills, of the traumas they grow up with, living in that fear...and instead just shrugging about the notion that our gun laws can't be changed.
I get it that guns are a problem, and we agree on this, and hopefully someday a party of either side will take the lead and legislate this problem away. Then you’ll still have a violent society but hopefully not weapons that can kill so many people.
Good luck with that in the US, anytime soon.
But trans is a problem, a different problem, and in so many ways an existential problem that’s devouring the whole west.
Again, I find that attitude extreme and alarmist. "Devouring the whole west?" Come on, my friend, really?
I know that these issues fall along party lines in the States - the right are largely pro-gun, the left are pushing trans - but these are both problems. The left, remember, tend not to see trans as a problem at all, so therefore it’s easy to see why you might conclude that guns are actually the real problem…
Careful...the left are "pushing trans?" Again, no one gets a toaster when someone gets "talked into" being trans. It's one thing to be open-minded, and quite another to push it on people. I would say that most open-minded people are in the vein of "live and let live" on the issue of transfolks and many other lifestyle choices, like gay marriage. And I consider you to be generally amongst the open-minded. But anyway, if we're talking about threats to children, and I speak only for in the US, I would say, guns are, at the very least, a MUCH bigger problem. I have addressed the notion of faddishness as to nonbinary and other ways similar that kids are acting out. I don't think it's unfair to say that some kids are leaping on the bandwagon of gender nonconformity, and a certain amount of it could be just as a normal way of rejecting their parents, etc. But I do think that most of those manifestations are superficial, and not leading to more drastic or permanent interventions.
 
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Moxie

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isn't it odd that this epidemic of kids being confused about their gender has only started occurring in these modern times? I went to a boarding school as a kid. Quite a big one, and there was never a single incident with a kid thinking they should have been born the other gender. If it was a thing, it would have been a thing in those days. If you wanted to prove the colossal stupidity of these times there's your evidence. I don't understand why this is so difficult to compute. Have people lost their basic common sense? Serious question...
Wow, so your boarding school proves it? I would think a boarding school, presumably boys only, would certainly encourage gender conformity, by its very nature.

I know I'm older than you, and I grew up with a couple of kids that I would say would have definite gender issues now, if it had been an option then. And by this I don't mean every kid who turned out to be gay...not by a long stretch. One boy I knew from around the corner, since even before kindergarten. Everything about him, always, presented as very "girly," if I'm going to short-hand it here, and risk offense. He loved me to come over and play Barbies, paint fingernails together, etc. I certainly thought it was odd for a boy, but he was fun. He was very ostracized in school, and moved away before we graduated HS, but I do know that he subsequently performed in drag shows. Which doesn't mean he is or was trans, but that was what you did then, meaning drag, not transitioning, and I have no idea what his identification is now. Also, a kid in my HS. A total "Pat," if you're at all familiar with the running SNL skit from some years back, "It's Pat!" (You can google it.) A year old than me, and we just had one math class together. Super-shy, button-down shirts, slacks, wallet in the back pocket, much slouching, short hair, gender-neutral first name...because she wasn't from my class (by age,) I had no idea who she was, and I have to tell you, it took awhile to figure out, for more than a few of us, which pronoun we would be going with. I think we finally did work out she took gym with girls. I have no idea what happened to her after HS. Just to say that...OK, YOU saw no indication of trans-type kids in your growing up, but I will say I did. Your anecdotes v. mine, for whatever it's worth. We didn't have words for it, but even as small children we knew these kids were very different, very unconventional in their gender-nonconformity, in a time when there was really no model for it.
This whole thing is so bizarre and maddening I can't summarily dismiss some of the conspiracy theories that @britbox is so enamoured with. This whole thing is too concerted, too sudden, there must be some rationale behind it. And I find it fucking terrifying. I've always been libertarian, I don't want the government to interfere with my money or my private life. When left of centre parties (and... to be fair the Tory party here, seem to be allowing all sorts of unconscionable shit to happen) are supportive of this degeneracy, then I can't in good conscience support them. I would have a far easier time supporting right of centre parties if they weren't anti-democratic as fuck right now. I pray that someone with common sense comes along to set us back on the right path. I can tell you for free that if at some point De Santis comes out strongly against election denialism I'll be batting in his corner with passion!
What about this is concerted and sudden? There are many examples of transsexualism in history. It didn't get invented 10 years ago, and I'm sure you know that.
 
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Federberg

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Wow, so your boarding school proves it? I would think a boarding school, presumably boys only, would certainly encourage gender conformity, by its very nature.
Incorrect. I have never gone to a boy's school in my life. Never wanted to...

Just to say that...OK, YOU saw no indication of trans-type kids in your growing up, but I will say I did
Boom! I'm not surprised that you would say that. So now in this new age, a girl who's a bit of a tomboy or a boy who's a bit effeminate is on the mythological spectrum and is therefore worthy of consideration for the knife?? Are you reading what you're writing? It's unbelievable. And extremely dangerous. My mind is blown.

A lot of these kids who people like you are comfortable giving the opportunity to make life changing decisions will end up committing suicides. From what I'm hearing the number of mistaken surgeries that result in people committing suicide or being extremely unhappy is legion. It's the silent tragedy that at some point will lead to a reckoning. I for one will cheer outside the courts when some of these permissive monsters who have allowed this to happen are led off in chains
 
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Kieran

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I'm not sure that mental health professionals agree with you that gender dysphoria is a mental illness.

Oh sister, you really drink whatever drink they put before you, eh? Unquestioning loyalty! It’s impressive. But perhaps not going to be helpful in the long run. What Federberg correctly calls an epidemic, you shrug it off and point us to some of the people who are bringing us the epidemic: healthcare activists.

The NHS child abuse factory in England has now closed.
In an interim report earlier this year, Dr Cass said:
  • The service was struggling to deal with spiralling waiting lists
  • It was not keeping "routine and consistent" data on its patients
  • Health staff felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach"
  • Once patients are identified as having gender-related distress, other healthcare issues they had, such as being neurodivergent, "can sometimes be overlooked"
She then suggested introducing local hubs, writing that the current provider model "is not a safe or viable long-term option".
The number of people seeking the clinic's help is 20 times higher than it was a decade ago, jumping from 250 to 5,000 referrals in 2021, according to the service's statistics.

This is the “health profession” approach to kids exploring “otherness.”

Took one brave person to shoot it down.
She argued the clinic should have challenged her more over her decision to transition.

She might as well argue with a used car salesman over why he didn’t talk her out of buying a banger with only three wheels.

She might as well argue why the lothario didn’t talk her out having that extra drink when she knows she really shouldn’t. I could go on for a while with this one. But the article highlights her predicament:
In Ms Bell's case, the High Court ruled under-16s lacked capacity to give informed consent to the treatment. This was later overturned by the Court of Appeal which ruled doctors could judge if under-16s could give informed consent to puberty blocker use.

So these kids are sent back to the health professionals who ‘felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach".’

Not only disgusting, but dangerous and hugely harmful.
I'm just not clear that this propaganda you claim, exists, nor that there is "pressure" from teachers, professors or therapists to "affirm their gender."
Answered it just now.
I think this is rather alarmist and over-determined. I know how upset you are about "chemical castration" and "surgical mutilation" that you feel is being imposed on children, but to say "...at the hands of activists?" Meaning whom? Trans-activists are talking the parents into altering their kids? I'm not sure I find a reasonable argument that anyone is convincing parents that this is a great path for their kids. Yes, there are trans-activists campaigning for their own rights, but there is not a "conversion movement" that I'm aware of. Isn't that a bit like the old Ellen joke that gay people got a toaster for every person they converted to being gay?
Already answered, but you wonder which Trans activists? You’ll remember this one:



And this little cupcake here:



I think she was sent to the senate hearing by the Democrat party, which shows you the extent of the problem. Devouring the west, indeed. Once the hogs at the trough are feeding off this one, believe me, they won’t change it. And the hogs in this case are the left. And they’re pushing and trying to normalise an indefensible lie.

I could go on and on and on with this one, presenting people in a position of power and control who are merely activists, nothing more, the list is endless and growing, but I already complained about being very busy and it’s true.
Again, I know it upsets you a lot that adults are trying to hear kids with issues, and to help normalize their feelings of "otherness," (by which I mean many things,)

Please explain what you mean? could it be kids exploring their identity? One day they’re a horse, the next day, an astronaut? Sometimes they might have a sneaky feeling that they don’t conform to normal views?
but I don't see how it is at all comparable with normalizing the idea of mass-shootings at schools, of kids having to go through school-invasion-by-shooter drills, of the traumas they grow up with, living in that fear...and instead just shrugging about the notion that our gun laws can't be changed.
You’re just shrugging at children being abused, because it’s your party doing the abusing. The problem isn’t guns, anyway, it’s violence, a gun is just a neutral armament, minding its own business until it’s used. I agree that you have too many and that they should be controlled, particularly weapons that can fire multiple rounds in seconds. But your country breeds a violent attitude. Remember the baby that was shot during a Batman movie? Batman 3. An ultraviolent franchise, and a baby and her sister are accompanying the parents to the midnight show? Take the gun away from the lunatic is a good start, but it won’t solve anything so long as kids are exposed to a violent culture that they can’t handle, and which will traumatise them.
Good luck with that in the US, anytime soon.
I agree. You’re polarised over there, thinking tribally, not looking at issues on their own merits. Unquestioning loyalty to bad ideas is not a virtue, but it is the norm…
 
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britbox

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This whole thing is so bizarre and maddening I can't summarily dismiss some of the conspiracy theories that @britbox is so enamoured with. This whole thing is too concerted, too sudden, there must be some rationale behind it. And I find it fucking terrifying.

Just stating the bleeding obvious mate. If people can't see it then they can't see it :)

openyoureyes.jpg


I've shared Government policy documents, UN treaties, WEF Policies... if people aren't able to consider that stuff...then they sure as hell can't entertain other much deeper "conspiracy theories".

Enjoy the bugs...









Know where this is going...
 

Moxie

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Oh sister, you really drink whatever drink they put before you, eh? Unquestioning loyalty! It’s impressive. But perhaps not going to be helpful in the long run. What Federberg correctly calls an epidemic, you shrug it off and point us to some of the people who are bringing us the epidemic: healthcare activists.
That's not quite fair. I could have used any number of medical websites that don't consider "gender dysphoria" a mental health issue, in and of itself, only that the lack of understanding from the community causes adjacent mental health problems. I'm not sure how my assessment of what I read is drinking the kool-aid, and your assessment, based on other things on the internet is not. I do a lot of reading and video watching, and we distill this information differently, but not without thought.
And this little cupcake here:


Josh Hawley is a right-wing extremist who hid from the attack on the Capital after he ginned them up. And I don't think those women acquitted themselves poorly.
Please explain what you mean? could it be kids exploring their identity? One day they’re a horse, the next day, an astronaut? Sometimes they might have a sneaky feeling that they don’t conform to normal views?
See, this is why I would like you to listen to that piece. (First of all, that radio program is amazing. I could offer some up that are nothing political that you would surely love.) Part of their point, at the end, is that there's a rumor on the internet that kids are identifying as cats and dogs, so there is kitty litter at schools. I think I already told you this. It's so that kids have a place to pee when there's an active shoot and they are on lockdown. They're not identifying as cats or horses or astronauts. You could leave off the hyperbole, though some on the far-right here cling to it.

What I mean by "otherness" is that not every kid feels like they fit in. The great American painter, Chuck Close, was severely dyslexic, before it was diagnosed, and he said that, without art, as a kid, he'd have been lost. You won't like that comparison, and I'm not going to go down a litany, but kids need great teachers to help them find expression and their way. I honestly believe there are a lot of great teachers out there who are not imposing their ideas, so much as trying to listen to kids, in loads of different ways.
You’re just shrugging at children being abused, because it’s your party doing the abusing. The problem isn’t guns, anyway, it’s violence, a gun is just a neutral armament, minding its own business until it’s used. I agree that you have too many and that they should be controlled, particularly weapons that can fire multiple rounds in seconds. But your country breeds a violent attitude. Remember the baby that was shot during a Batman movie? Batman 3. An ultraviolent franchise, and a baby and her sister are accompanying the parents to the midnight show? Take the gun away from the lunatic is a good start, but it won’t solve anything so long as kids are exposed to a violent culture that they can’t handle, and which will traumatise them.

I agree. You’re polarised over there, thinking tribally, not looking at issues on their own merits. Unquestioning loyalty to bad ideas is not a virtue, but it is the norm…
I'm not "shrugging at children being abused." You know me better than that. And it's not about my party, it's about my experience, and my own investigations. You see abuse, though, where I don't see it. That's a fundamental difference between us. Fine, and I don't see that changing, but don't tell me I don't care about children who are actually abused. I suppose it's like the abortion debate. For those who consider it murder, there is no conversation. I understand that.

Yes, we are a violent culture, with a long history of it, and the guns are only part of the problem. But it would cut down the body-count if we limited certain amounts of military assault-style weapons, and the access of some people to them.
 

Moxie

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Incorrect. I have never gone to a boy's school in my life. Never wanted to...
OK, bad assumption on my part.
I wish you'd stop with the "Boom!" Do you want to have a conversation, or just feel like you've hit a "gotcha?"
I'm not surprised that you would say that. So now in this new age, a girl who's a bit of a tomboy or a boy who's a bit effeminate is on the mythological spectrum and is therefore worthy of consideration for the knife?? Are you reading what you're writing? It's unbelievable. And extremely dangerous. My mind is blown.
If you're not surprised that I would say that, then you were expecting me to re-write my own history, am I correct? That's a bit unfair. You were making the point, with your school history, that you never met a kid that you would have suspected could have been trans, and suggesting that all of this is new and came out of nowhere. I responded with my own school history, just to say that it's not that new. 2 kids in the entirety of my K-12 experience, and I went through all of it with most of the same people. I knew plenty of effeminate boys and tomboy girls. I myself was a bit of a tomboy. (I've spent all these years on a sports forum.) I'm just saying that there were 2 kids that demonstrated gender-nonconformity in a way that was surprising for the time. Did I say that the boy was ripe for the knife? (Obviously something that disturbs you enormously.) I told you I had not much idea of what their identities really were, except that the boy IS gay, and did perform drag. Before your mind gets blown, perhaps you should actually take on board the conversation. There is nothing "dangerous" about what I said. I was talking about your notion that there were no trans kids when we were growing up. I offered that there may have been, in my sphere. You can ask anyone I grew up with about those 2 kids, and they would have the same sense of them. Children are intuitive, and often not wrong. I'm telling you that there was something especially different about these specific kids, in terms of traditional gender identification. That's all I said, and it was a time when it was not common.


A lot of these kids who people like you are comfortable giving the opportunity to make life changing decisions will end up committing suicides. From what I'm hearing the number of mistaken surgeries that result in people committing suicide or being extremely unhappy is legion. It's the silent tragedy that at some point will lead to a reckoning. I for one will cheer outside the courts when some of these permissive monsters who have allowed this to happen are led off in chains
You do know that gender reassignment surgeries generally happen to grown-ups, right? And you do know that there is a high-suicide rate amongst transpeople for not getting the understanding and openness they need? Far more than people mistakenly identifying as trans and regretting it.

It is clear that you and I do not see this in the same way. I'm fine with that. I've said what I wanted. I don't think it's the biggest problem in the world today. I'm fine to leave the rest of you to just keep freaking out over it amongst yourselves.
 

Kieran

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That's not quite fair. I could have used any number of medical websites that don't consider "gender dysphoria" a mental health issue, in and of itself, only that the lack of understanding from the community causes adjacent mental health problems. I'm not sure how my assessment of what I read is drinking the kool-aid, and your assessment, based on other things on the internet is not. I do a lot of reading and video watching, and we distill this information differently, but not without thought.
It’s because your response to all this is to repeat straightforward Democrat Party talking points. Although I tend to agree with Tulsi that most democrats don’t believe in the trans hoax, you’re repeating all the talking points of those who do. You even used modish gender ideology terms, such as “cis woman”. You haven’t once addressed or questioned the innovative nature of gender ideologies that insist that gender is fluid, that there are multiple genders etc. You tend to conflate the extremist part of trans with things we already know about - but which are wholly different things in nature and substance - things such as gender dysphoria, which by whatever definition we want to use (and I distrust the medical profession in this regard but I don’t mind your definition either because it changes the substance of the conversation not even by a decimal point) and intersex people. This is what trans ideologists do, to try conceal the radical and society-changing nature of their work.

Gender dysphoria is a tragic condition. I addressed this many times and I’ve recommended YouTube videos by sufferers of it. They transition to save themselves. They’re suffering, and it’s the only thing that helps. They realise that there are two genders and that by transitioning they have not become the gender they want to be. This part is crucial.

When you say that “the lack of understanding from the community causes adjacent mental health problems” I agree that this is probably the case sometimes, but the fact is that there’s a lack of acceptance and understanding from the other side also, which is that they don’t accept or understand that the gender propaganda they’re selling is being recognised for what it is: revolutionary, destabilising, dishonest, unscientific rubbish, passing itself off not only as fact, but also they insist that we agree with them. So when JK Rowling and other brave feminists say exactly what we all knew ten minutes ago, that a woman is an adult biological female, they get attacked, but nobody steps forward from the activist side to give a scientific or rational explanation as to why they’re wrong, presenting new data and evidence that shows in fact that ‘gender’ is merely a feeling, and not related to biology at all.


Josh Hawley is a right-wing extremist who hid from the attack on the Capital after he ginned them up. And I don't think those women acquitted themselves poorly.

Forget about right wing! You do this often when there’s a message you doing like. You say “that’s a right wing publication.” Kool Aid indeed, sister. Forget about what the Kool Aid newspapers and politicians tell you, watch the videos. They’re saying this stuff themselves, it’s not Josh Hawley saying it, or Matt Walsh saying it.

I find it bizarre that you think a woman sent by the democrats to testify at congress had acquitted herself well, when she says that men can become pregnant.

Or the other one, a woman who’s feeding young boys chemical castration pills “acquitted herself well”. She’s abusing children, but that’s okay? She should be in prison. The other one should be in a loony bin. What part of what they said shows that “they acquitted themselves well?”


See, this is why I would like you to listen to that piece. (First of all, that radio program is amazing. I could offer some up that are nothing political that you would surely love.) Part of their point, at the end, is that there's a rumor on the internet that kids are identifying as cats and dogs, so there is kitty litter at schools. I think I already told you this. It's so that kids have a place to pee when there's an active shoot and they are on lockdown. They're not identifying as cats or horses or astronauts. You could leave off the hyperbole, though some on the far-right here cling to it.
There is a person in the Matt Walsh film so identifies as a wolf, among many other things. Would you dismiss this just because it comes from the Wolf’s own mouth, but is brought to you by a conservative? But I agree in principle that propaganda from opponents of the trans ideology is unhelpful and harmful. If we can’t win the argument by using facts and logic, then lies are a default setting admission of defeat.

The proof for this statement is all the lies the trans activists tell, but never defend.

What I mean by "otherness" is that not every kid feels like they fit in. The great American painter, Chuck Close, was severely dyslexic, before it was diagnosed, and he said that, without art, as a kid, he'd have been lost. You won't like that comparison, and I'm not going to go down a litany, but kids need great teachers to help them find expression and their way. I honestly believe there are a lot of great teachers out there who are not imposing their ideas, so much as trying to listen to kids, in loads of different ways.

So why did you think I was upset by this? What makes you think I’m upset by kids exploring this type of otherness? I was probably the only kid in my working class school writing poetry, songs and stories under the desktop while they were rowdily chucking pens at the schoolteachers, and nobody knew what I was doing, because I felt they wouldn’t understand. I was two people, though everyone thought I was only the one they knew.

Why did you say that you “know it upsets you a lot that adults are trying to hear kids with issues, and to help normalize their feelings of "otherness," (by which I mean many things)?”

It seems so unrelated to the discussion of trans.

I'm not "shrugging at children being abused." You know me better than that. And it's not about my party, it's about my experience, and my own investigations. You see abuse, though, where I don't see it. That's a fundamental difference between us. Fine, and I don't see that changing, but don't tell me I don't care about children who are actually abused. I suppose it's like the abortion debate. For those who consider it murder, there is no conversation. I understand that.
You seem to have ignored the part about the NHS healthcare professionals being pressured into affirming kids in their gender confusion, and the part where it says that other healthcare issues were neglected once they’d decided that the child was trans. The part where a judge on appeal decided that underage kids were able to consent to these extremely abusive treatments, once a doctor had cleared it. Totally bypassing their parents.

This isn’t a concern to you? My elderly father had a condition that meant he wasn’t able to make decisions for himself and we were consulted every step of the way, from his diagnosis to what tablets he was on, to any treatments they were doing, which was proper and appreciated. Medical practitioners can hurry kids into all sorts of procedures without their parents consent, and you’re okay with this?

Is there any part of chemical castration for little boys that you disagree with? Surgical mutilation for young girls? Is any of those wrong, in your book? Why can’t they wait until the children are of an age where they can make a clearminded decision for themselves? Why do this to children?
Yes, we are a violent culture, with a long history of it, and the guns are only part of the problem. But it would cut down the body-count if we limited certain amounts of military assault-style weapons, and the access of some people to them.
I agree here on the guns, and I know that this is another right wing/left wing issue over there. You really are a tribal people. You have probably a huge silent majority in the centre that agrees on most things and can discuss politics peacefully with their friends, while voting for different candidates, but your extremes are pulling you apart, and that’s the real problem…
 
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Kieran

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A sobering article about the other common abuses caused by trans activists. Death threats, and such trivia. Now the response might be, “they’re only threats, but who have they actually killed?” But this isn’t a sensible response, for reasons we can go into later, if necessary.

How I survived my annus horribilis
 

britbox

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A sobering article about the other common abuses caused by trans activists. Death threats, and such trivia. Now the response might be, “they’re only threats, but who have they actually killed?” But this isn’t a sensible response, for reasons we can go into later, if necessary.

How I survived my annus horribilis

I don't know how anyone thinking rationally, can justify potential scenarios where a child can be given the option to have sexual organs removed before they can legally smoke a cigarette.
 

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I wish you'd stop with the "Boom!" Do you want to have a conversation, or just feel like you've hit a "gotcha?"
That's fair

If you're not surprised that I would say that, then you were expecting me to re-write my own history, am I correct? That's a bit unfair. You were making the point, with your school history, that you never met a kid that you would have suspected could have been trans, and suggesting that all of this is new and came out of nowhere.
No. My point is that if trans was a thing, and not some aspect of modern hysteria then any kids on the spectrum would have shown evidence of extreme social discomfort. But instead,
they adapted got comfortable in their own skins and have gone on to become who they were going to be. Transport them into these fkd up times, they would have been pushed to question their identity and misdiagnosed as being of another gender. We don't have all the answers in current times as much as we might try to pretend, we do. But I'm 100% certain that putting these kids to the blade will be seen to be as barbaric as the use of leeches as a cure all in medieval times.

As an aside, my dorm mate in boarding school was an Olympic medallist, and former world record holder. A swimmer. Turns out he was gay. He wrote an article in a major newspaper some years ago discussing his voyage of self-discovery. When I read it, it blew my mind in one way, but didn't shock me in another. It didn't shock me because he always used to get letters from his 'girlfriend' from home. She just happened to have exactly the same handwriting as his! :D But it blew my mind because he participated in all of our conversations about which girl was the hottest in school. I remember I had a massive crush on one of the swimmers and I used to question him about her all the time. I would never have guessed at the time that he was gay, is the point I'm making. It crushes my soul to think of the turmoil he must have been going through at the time. Let me tell you... that school was brutal. The levels of cruelty some people experienced at that time was no joke. One of the most shameful things I've ever done in my life was giving a kid a choice of either getting beaten up by me or eating the mud from my rugby boot. He chose the mud, and promptly got beaten up by someone else, because he was more afraid of me than him! To this day, if someone tried to have me 'dealt' with, I think it would be him. The humiliation he must have felt. But that was boarding school at that time, I don't know whether it's any better now.

You do know that gender reassignment surgeries generally happen to grown-ups, right? And you do know that there is a high-suicide rate amongst transpeople for not getting the understanding and openness they need? Far more than people mistakenly identifying as trans and regretting it.
All that tells me is that more work needs to be done to deal with the mental condition of gender dysphoria. But feel free to supply the data. What I do know is that there is solid peer-reviewed research out there that shows that gender dysphoria in the young is typically a transient thing and tends to be suffered by homosexual kids. They need all of our support. And not the barbaric promotion of trans gender surgeries as an option.

I'm fine to leave the rest of you to just keep freaking out over it amongst yourselves.
That last paragraph of yours was going so well until this last bit. This is where you lose us @Moxie. This shaming, 'I'm better than you' progressive language. If I can concede that saying 'Boom!' is unnecessarily contentious, then I would like to task you with checking yourself. Please stop. As much as you might think you have the moral high ground, that's just your perspective, and it's not the way to have the respectful dialogue you claim you want
 
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Kieran

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I don't know how anyone thinking rationally, can justify potential scenarios where a child can be given the option to have sexual organs removed before they can legally smoke a cigarette.
Nail on the head, brother. Imagine a world where your underage kids don’t even need your permission to go ahead with this…
 
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britbox

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The levels of cruelty some people experienced at that time was no joke. One of the most shameful things I've ever done in my life was giving a kid a choice of either getting beaten up by me or eating the mud from my rugby boot. He chose the mud, and promptly got beaten up by someone else, because he was more afraid of me than him! To this day, if someone tried to have me 'dealt' with, I think it would be him. The humiliation he must have felt. But that was boarding school at that time, I don't know whether it's any better now.

Schools back in the day were brutal, and while I'm not saying various behaviours are "right" - they were often wrong... the flipside is such antics and cruelty did build resilience and make people stronger. Resilience is a word that's been forgotten. It's said that difficult times breeds stronger character... and there is a lot of truth in that IMO. I can think of various unpleasant experiences where you learnt some pretty good life lessons.
 
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