Serious PC thread

[Federberg]

I guess I'd better include at least one example... there are a gazillion...

Holy Wokery Batgirl! Why was new $90million superhero movie axed?

TOM LEONARD: Batgirl, an apparently 'woke', big-budget film featuring a female version of the Caped Crusader, has been ignominiously scrapped - shocking the film world.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Moxie]

There've been rumours, particularly online about the public reacting negatively to these movies. Supposedly it's because of woke-ism. Diversity or gender-roles being foisted on original storylines etc. I don't know if it's true. But I'm simply observing that if it is, and either (1) the market signals it's dissatisfaction, or (2) the film studios themselves are realising the movement has over reached, then perhaps we're entering a much needed phase of correction

Personally, I think the connection to "woke-ism" is an overreach. i mean, whether Batgirl, for example, was shelved for being terrible or to take advantage of an accounting loophole, it's not because they created a Batgirl. The character was created in 1961. And it's not because she was played by a Latina. So, where's the "anti-woke" bit? Likewise, She-Hulk was created in the comics in 1980. LOTR trying to add some diversity? Why not? It's a fantasy, anyway. Did Tolkien describe them all as white? (Sincere question. I'm no expert on Tolkien.) As to Scooby Doo, it's a cartoon, and could well be just terrible.

 

[Moxie]

I guess I'd better include at least one example... there are a gazillion...

Holy Wokery Batgirl! Why was new $90million superhero movie axed?

TOM LEONARD: Batgirl, an apparently 'woke', big-budget film featuring a female version of the Caped Crusader, has been ignominiously scrapped - shocking the film world.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I hate to complain about your sources, but you've got the NY Post and the Daily Mail, both likely to gin up outrage about "wokeism." I've given you a much more sanguine and industry-insider perspective. You're an economics guy. I think you can appreciate that the corporations that are involved are tapping out the numbers. Plus, there is a power-play in the changing-of-the-guard, always. There is always some exec killing the last execs work. IMPO, Batgirl will see the light of day, when the politics settle. And by that, I don't mean the culture wars ones. I mean the "smoke-filled room" back-stabbing kind. I've had shot projects killed only to come back to life when the dust settles. I'll bet you a beer on it.

 

[Moxie]

I will post this in the movies thread, but I thought you would appreciate it here, @Federberg. I saw "Bullet Train" yesterday, and it is very good fun. Brad Pitt's character, called "Ladybug," is basically an assassin trying to get in touch with his gentler side. It's a lampoon of "wokeism" that you might find very funny. I did.

 

[Federberg]

Personally, I think the connection to "woke-ism" is an overreach. i mean, whether Batgirl, for example, was shelved for being terrible or to take advantage of an accounting loophole, it's not because they created a Batgirl. The character was created in 1961. And it's not because she was played by a Latina. So, where's the "anti-woke" bit? Likewise, She-Hulk was created in the comics in 1980. LOTR trying to add some diversity? Why not? It's a fantasy, anyway. Did Tolkien describe them all as white? (Sincere question. I'm no expert on Tolkien.) As to Scooby Doo, it's a cartoon, and could well be just terrible.

Scooby Doo! Didn't you just write Scoob? Confused.com

I've read all of Tolkien's books and a fair number of his son's publications of his notes.... Unfinished Tales etc... I've actually read them several times over the years. It still remains the standard for world building in the literary fantasy genre. The elves were white, by the way they were described, although it was never stated explicitly. Orcs, and some of the races of humans that existed to the south of Mordor were 'darker', make of that what you will. In my opinion one can see a more blatant bias with Enid Blyton's Noddy books, which have been pretty much either banned or re-edited in the UK now, but once that was pointed out, it was an obvious step to re-assess Tolkien's works. Personally I have no objection to using black actors in some of the elvish roles, but it becomes even more important to stick closely to the original narrative. The moment you veer away you're simply exploiting the Tolkien brand to push your own agenda. The natural consumer of this stuff is going to be someone who came to Tolkien either via the books or the movies. And those movies were a superb representation of Tolkien's work. Even the failure to include Tom Bombadil in the trilogy was understandable as that whole sub-narrative was never integral to the overriding structure of the story. Anyway let's see how the series lands, it doesn't bode well so far, and this sort of "woke" artistic license will be tested in the only space where it really matters ... profit/loss table! Which was the point I was making.. So in response to your "Why not?" We shall see. If these things start to fail as these film studios go off script then yeah... it would have been shown to matter!

By the way, when I was a kid I had a huge comic book collection, DC, Marvel, 2000 AD... thousands. You don't need to tell me about the origins of DC and Marvel characters. Thanks though

 

[Moxie]

Scooby Doo! Didn't you just write Scoob? Confused.com

I've read all of Tolkien's books and a fair number of his son's publications of his notes.... Unfinished Tales etc... I've actually read them several times over the years. It still remains the standard for world building in the literary fantasy genre. The elves were white, by the way they were described, although it was never stated explicitly. Orcs, and some of the races of humans that existed to the south of Mordor were 'darker', make of that what you will. In my opinion one can see a more blatant bias with Enid Blyton's Noddy books, which have been pretty much either banned or re-edited in the UK now, but once that was pointed out, it was an obvious step to re-assess Tolkien's works. Personally I have no objection to using black actors in some of the elvish roles, but it becomes even more important to stick closely to the original narrative. The moment you veer away you're simply exploiting the Tolkien brand to push your own agenda. The natural consumer of this stuff is going to be someone who came to Tolkien either via the books or the movies. And those movies were a superb representation of Tolkien's work. Even the failure to include Tom Bombadil in the trilogy was understandable as that whole sub-narrative was never integral to the overriding structure of the story. Anyway let's see how the series lands, it doesn't bode well so far, and this sort of "woke" artistic license will be tested in the only space where it really matters ... profit/loss table! Which was the point I was making.. So in response to your "Why not?" We shall see. If these things start to fail as these film studios go off script then yeah... it would have been shown to matter!

By the way, when I was a kid I had a huge comic book collection, DC, Marvel, 2000 AD... thousands. You don't need to tell me about the origins of DC and Marvel characters. Thanks though

I wrote Scooby Doo because previously you didn't know what Scoob was...it's a sequel. I thought that would help. If you don't need to be told that She-Hulk and Batgirl aren't new ways of shoe-horning a female character into a male genre, then what is so "woke" about them? I still think you're looking for "woke-ism" bloody everywhere anymore.

 

[Federberg]

Did you write Scooby Doo somewhere before Scoob? I used to watch Scooby Doo as a kid. Not sure what the confusion is here. If there's a film about Scooby Doo called Scoob that's fine. But seriously... how hard is it to add "y Doo" if you were just shortening? Anyway let's leave that...

So are you really suggesting that the creation of characters like She-Hulk and Bat-girl was about woke-ism?? In the 60s, 70s and 80s? Really? Those are legitimate characters, so I'm not sure if you're suggesting that movies about them now are simply shoe-horning female characters into a male genre. That doesn't make sense. I had She Hulk comics when I was a kid. You might not be aware of this but often story lines crossed through into multiple character threads. There were Secret Wars spin-offs in X-men, Thor, Avengers comics for example. So one often ended up buying a whole variety of stuff. My point being that if a She Hulk movie was created now, my first thought wouldn't be about woke-ism. I've already provided you with one article about Bat-girl, and it's just one... meant as an example of the type of stuff out there. There are some papers that aren't going to be invested in bringing up culture war issues, and others that are. I'll repeat my point again... as for some reason it seems to be difficult for you to absorb. If the reason for the adverse publicity and potential for bombing is due to woke-ism, then the market will take care of the culture war all by itself. I simply can't understand why that's such a difficult observation. I haven't even opined about whether I personally think these set backs are about woke-ism or not, I'm more interested in where we are in the cycle..

 

[Federberg]

 

[Moxie]

Did you write Scooby Doo somewhere before Scoob? I used to watch Scooby Doo as a kid. Not sure what the confusion is here. If there's a film about Scooby Doo called Scoob that's fine. But seriously... how hard is it to add "y Doo" if you were just shortening? Anyway let's leave that...

So are you really suggesting that the creation of characters like She-Hulk and Bat-girl was about woke-ism?? In the 60s, 70s and 80s? Really? Those are legitimate characters, so I'm not sure if you're suggesting that movies about them now are simply shoe-horning female characters into a male genre. That doesn't make sense. I had She Hulk comics when I was a kid. You might not be aware of this but often story lines crossed through into multiple character threads. There were Secret Wars spin-offs in X-men, Thor, Avengers comics for example. So one often ended up buying a whole variety of stuff. My point being that if a She Hulk movie was created now, my first thought wouldn't be about woke-ism. I've already provided you with one article about Bat-girl, and it's just one... meant as an example of the type of stuff out there. There are some papers that aren't going to be invested in bringing up culture war issues, and others that are. I'll repeat my point again... as for some reason it seems to be difficult for you to absorb. If the reason for the adverse publicity and potential for bombing is due to woke-ism, then the market will take care of the culture war all by itself. I simply can't understand why that's such a difficult observation. I haven't even opined about whether I personally think these set backs are about woke-ism or not, I'm more interested in where we are in the cycle..

The name of the film is, in fact, "Scoob!" (with the exclamation mark, not an editorial comment on my part. )

I feel like we're chasing our tails here. This is your OP on the subject:

"Is it possible that wokeism might die a quicker death than we all think? Looking at some of the recent or pending movie or tv series fails, surely the big wigs in Hollywood are going to come to (or should have already) the realisation that it doesn't correlate well with making money. I refer of course to things like Amazon's new Lord of the Rings series, Marvel's She Hulk just to name a few of the product that is unlikely to do well at the box office. I'm not even mentioning the fact that film studios were willing to cancel Jonny Depp without due process but are still reluctant to do the same fully to Amber Heard. Let's see how Aquaman 2 does, but I'm sensing that if there's even a sniff of her in the finished product the whole thing will tank. Time will tell I guess..."

I honestly thought YOU were saying that She-Hulk and Batgirl were created out of "woke-ism." I guess you're saying that there are articles out there that bring the culture wars into these films/shows are their potential failures. I guess the point is not yours, though the distinction is hard to find, but I still think it is being shoe-horned in.

Trying to figure out where some of this is coming from, I googled "She-Hulk woke" and found this article. It does seem that there is a Twitter fight going on as to whether it is "woke crap" or worthwhile. One twitter comment said it 'seemed to have been created for girls. Eww....' Is that what makes it "woke?" Twelve-year-old boys think it was created for girls? Or even that grown men do? Someone else pointed out on Twitter, the article says, that the character was created long before there was a concept of "woke," something you and I agree upon. The show will come out in a week or so, so we'll see how it fares. And it might be just terrible, who knows?

I'm sure you're tired of me going back-and-forth with you on this, but I still think it's a fair and interesting debate. I don't think you and I actually agree on what "woke" even means. I believe the original intention is to be alert to social injustices, particularly systemic racism. You seem to think that it means being PC for the sake of it, rather performatively, but feel free to correct me on that. (Though, believe me, I know that some of it is performative.)

 

[Federberg]

The name of the film is, in fact, "Scoob!" (with the exclamation mark, not an editorial comment on my part. )

I feel like we're chasing our tails here. This is your OP on the subject:

"Is it possible that wokeism might die a quicker death than we all think? Looking at some of the recent or pending movie or tv series fails, surely the big wigs in Hollywood are going to come to (or should have already) the realisation that it doesn't correlate well with making money. I refer of course to things like Amazon's new Lord of the Rings series, Marvel's She Hulk just to name a few of the product that is unlikely to do well at the box office. I'm not even mentioning the fact that film studios were willing to cancel Jonny Depp without due process but are still reluctant to do the same fully to Amber Heard. Let's see how Aquaman 2 does, but I'm sensing that if there's even a sniff of her in the finished product the whole thing will tank. Time will tell I guess..."

I honestly thought YOU were saying that She-Hulk and Batgirl were created out of "woke-ism." I guess you're saying that there are articles out there that bring the culture wars into these films/shows are their potential failures. I guess the point is not yours, though the distinction is hard to find, but I still think it is being shoe-horned in.

Trying to figure out where some of this is coming from, I googled "She-Hulk woke" and found this article. It does seem that there is a Twitter fight going on as to whether it is "woke crap" or worthwhile. One twitter comment said it 'seemed to have been created for girls. Eww....' Is that what makes it "woke?" Twelve-year-old boys think it was created for girls? Or even that grown men do? Someone else pointed out on Twitter, the article says, that the character was created long before there was a concept of "woke," something you and I agree upon. The show will come out in a week or so, so we'll see how it fares. And it might be just terrible, who knows?

I'm sure you're tired of me going back-and-forth with you on this, but I still think it's a fair and interesting debate. I don't think you and I actually agree on what "woke" even means. I believe the original intention is to be alert to social injustices, particularly systemic racism. You seem to think that it means being PC for the sake of it, rather performatively, but feel free to correct me on that. (Though, believe me, I know that some of it is performative.)

if that's what you believe 'woke' is then we're in agreement. For the record I'm not responsible for how you thought I understood it. That's on you

To be honest, I'm still not sure you fully understand the point I was making. It actually doesn't matter whether the movies are woke or not. If 'woke-ism' becomes a money losing tag, whether or not the product is woke, then my preferred outcome... the end of woke-ism... would have been achieved. The signal... loss of profit... would do the work all by itself.

PS, there was a time where I might have felt the same way as you about rags like The Mail and the New York Post. But I'm over it. There's crap in all papers. I think the more right leaning papers tend to be more honest about culture war stuff (because the sheer stupidity of the progressive herd doesn't need embellishment), while the so called mainstream have revealed themselves to be fantastically dishonest. What I saw and I'm still seeing written about the Depp-Heard case has been profoundly shocking. The dishonesty, the utter blindness of the so called mainstream media that's still trying to peddle the narrative that Heard is some sort of victim makes my skin crawl. Journalistic integrity is a rare thing these days, whether in left leaning or right leaning papers. That's just the way it is...

 

[Moxie]

if that's what you believe 'woke' is then we're in agreement. For the record I'm not responsible for how you thought I understood it. That's on you

To be honest, I'm still not sure you fully understand the point I was making. It actually doesn't matter whether the movies are woke or not. If 'woke-ism' becomes a money losing tag, whether or not the product is woke, then my preferred outcome... the end of woke-ism... would have been achieved. The signal... loss of profit... would do the work all by itself.

PS, there was a time where I might have felt the same way as you about rags like The Mail and the New York Post. But I'm over it. There's crap in all papers. I think the more right leaning papers tend to be more honest about culture war stuff (because the sheer stupidity of the progressive herd doesn't need embellishment), while the so called mainstream have revealed themselves to be fantastically dishonest. What I saw and I'm still seeing written about the Depp-Heard case has been profoundly shocking. The dishonesty, the utter blindness of the so called mainstream media that's still trying to peddle the narrative that Heard is some sort of victim makes my skin crawl. Journalistic integrity is a rare thing these days, whether in left leaning or right leaning papers. That's just the way it is...

All good...that's why I asked you to define your own terms.

But if we DO understand it the same way, then why do you want to see the end of it? In its productive manifestation, it's a good thing, is it not? I did say that some of it is performative, and I am not a fan of that, either. And I agree that the performative stuff might just weed itself out.

As to your PS: Nope, I'm not there with you. Ginning up outrage where there needn't be any is not "more honest," IMO. It's sensational. And you may feel that lots of outlets hide their agenda, but I still believe some actually try harder for journalistic integrity, while others go for emotional pleas towards an agenda. But that is for another day. But I think we have some clarity on this one, and I appreciate your patience with me.

 

[Federberg]

My issue is with woke activism. The same type of people who want to get all self righteous about it get uncomfortable when people talk about reforming the education system to benefit minorities. I think the whole world is tired of virtue signalling a lot of these people seem to have a blind spot and don't realise how transparent they actually are.

 

[Federberg]

Preach brother. Preach!!

 

[Federberg]

The inevitable next step?

I'm turned on by planes and one day want to marry my toy Boeing

A WOMAN in love with a plane insists her desire is not a flight of fancy. Sarah Rodo, 23, even refers to the Boeing 737 as her boyfriend. She flies on the aircraft as often as possible and has 50 r…

www.the-sun.com

 

[Federberg]

Thought this was a fantastic treatise on moving away from woke-ism. Fascinating woman. Only heard about her because I listened to a podcast that was sent my way.

An open letter: why I'm leaving the cult of wokeness by Africa Brooke

email-button:hover{background-color:#dc1b39} If there's one thing I'm NOT afraid of, it's being 'cancelled'. If being cancelled means me living in integrity as a human being w...

ckarchive.com

 

[Federberg]

interesting article. I wholeheartedly agree!

France's support of Rushdie puts Britain to shame

If any further evidence was needed of the moral cowardice of the British political class it has been provided in the wake of the appalling attack on Salman Rushdie at the Chautauqua Institution. There were of course messages condemning the atrocity in New York, although notably it took Sir Keir...

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[tented]

Preach brother. Preach!!

This is fantastic. It needed to be said, and he did so both humorously and smartly. I hope Leguizamo watches it.

I remember learning that Sean Penn was going to portray Harvey Milk. I was quite surprised. Not because he isn’t gay, but because I couldn’t imagine him inhabiting that character. Wrong! He did an excellent job. And at no point, up to and including today, have I thought it should have gone to a gay actor. That’s stupid.

The best actors and actresses should be cast. Now, there are some limitations within that. I don’t think white people should darken their skin for a remake of Shaft. I don’t think males should put on dresses and wear make up for a redo of Little Women.

 

[tented]

Thought this was a fantastic treatise on moving away from woke-ism. Fascinating woman. Only heard about her because I listened to a podcast that was sent my way.

An open letter: why I'm leaving the cult of wokeness by Africa Brooke

email-button:hover{background-color:#dc1b39} If there's one thing I'm NOT afraid of, it's being 'cancelled'. If being cancelled means me living in integrity as a human being w...

ckarchive.com

This should be required reading.

 

[Federberg]

This is fantastic. It needed to be said, and he did so both humorously and smartly. I hope Leguizamo watches it.

I remember learning that Sean Penn was going to portray Harvey Milk. I was quite surprised. Not because he isn’t gay, but because I couldn’t imagine him inhabiting that character. Wrong! He did an excellent job. And at no point, up to and including today, have I thought it should have gone to a gay actor. That’s stupid.

The best actors and actresses should be cast. Now, there are some limitations within that. I don’t think white people should darken their skin for a remake of Shaft. I don’t think males should put on dresses and wear make up for a redo of Little Women.

I will say though that it would be a shame if the blackface role in Tropic Thunder couldn't be played again. Context matters. A blanket ban is artistic cowardice and the SJW's that get their knickers in a twist on stuff like that should just fuck off quite frankly. The self righteousness and lack of humour is exhausting...

 

[Federberg]

Jeezuz.... The way these people use language to alter perceptions...