Serious PC thread

[Moxie]

Big problem with what Moxie? If somebody wants to dress up as a woman (or vice versa) and pretend that's who they are... then why would I care? Each to their own.
Try and force that shit on my kids... then you've got my attention... and that's where we are right now. Transphobia? indicates I'm scared of these people. Not scared at all... but deranged 'progressives' have crossed the proverbial line in the sand. The most bizarre thing of all? Where champions of women's' rights can't even figure out what a woman is. Cis-woman? Lol.

No one is forcing it on your kids.

 

[Kieran]

You may not have meant to put those two sentences against each other, but you did compare trans-people with pedophiles. You say they're not the same, but you see both as dangerous. I happen to disagree.


You weren't listening to the video you posted if you didn't understand that the chemical blockers are all reversible.

How incredibly reassuring to think that giving chemical castration drugs to little boys who have just reached puberty is “reversible.”

According to her.

But what exactly is reversible about it? I know for a fact that as an adult male, if I’d been chemically castrated just as I hit puberty, that nothing about it would have been reversible. I’d be traumatised still, beyond measure. Betrayed by my parents, and abused by a “therapist” who’s racking up a score for her ideological beliefs.

What kind of gender therapist can she be, when she doesn’t even know what a woman is? Or else, she knows, but she’s lying?

“A woman is someone who claims that as their identity,”

Thus spake an expert.

If we can unpack this any way and come up with something logical, then the logic must first begin with another question: “A woman is someone who claims what as their identity? What are they claiming as their identity, when they claim they’re a woman? What is a woman?”

She will never answer that, but remember, she’s treating little boys who tell her that they think they’re little girls - but as the responsible adult - “therapist” in fact - she never asks the pertinent questions:

“What is a Girl? Why do you think you’re a girl? How do you know what it is to be a girl? Have you ever played games where you’re a horse? Yes? Well this is the same, and you’ll move in from this too. Mammy, that’ll be $8000 - believe me, you’re getting off lightly.”

She’s abusing children with her “affirmation” and her blousy, empty headed platitudes. The parents are reneging on their duty to protect their child, and the child will grow to be a very confused, angry and hurt man who will remember the deranged, radical left, blue haired activist who abused him.

I do believe that some children have gender dysphoria from early on. These are/might be truly trans-people. However, I'm going to posit that an option for rebellion in this generation is also declaring non-binary. Kids look for ways to stand out, to contradict their parents, to act out. This is one that is available to them that was not available to us. Try to be understanding.

What makes you think we’re not trying to understand? Perhaps we do understand? Britbox has kids. He could sell you this stuff.

Okay, from the perspective of kids rebelling against their folks, running brainlessly with the zeitgeist - I can understand it at this level. In fact, when I see stats that show that 20% of Gen Z are LBGTQRSTXYZ+, I understand it solely from this angle. They’re kids. They’re acting up, they’ll grow out of it. By the way, often the biggest cheerleaders are their parents, which means they’re not contradicting them at all. And none of this means that they’re acting truthfully, or that trans is actually true.

“Whose truth?” indeed, as the activist in the video put it. “Real truth, lady”, as she should be told.

Every day.

I'm going to give you a personal example. And I will defy her current pronouns to make it more clear to you. This girl lost her parents in a tragic car accident when she was 6. She is artistically gifted, extremely intelligent, is surrounded by loving family, and has had the value of good therapy for all these years,. And yet, in her late teens, she is threatening to quit school. She has changed her name and now goes by they/them pronouns. In our day, that kind of acting out went generally to drugs. I'm not in the least sorry that they have this kind outlet for unresolved anger and pain. They will sort themself out, eventually, I am confident. But if teenage angst has an outlet that is NOT drugs, I, for one, am grateful.

They’re giving little boys chemical castration drugs. The adults are giving them. The parents are complicit. They’re grooming them, then abusing them.

No one is forcing it on your kids.

Are they teaching this in schools as being true? Are they forcing it down children’s brains on television? They’re normalising it, and so they are forcing it on his kids…

 

[Federberg]

You may not have meant to put those two sentences against each other, but you did compare trans-people with pedophiles. You say they're not the same, but you see both as dangerous. I happen to disagree.

no comparison was made, and you know that perfectly well. My focus was on how society deals with both issues.

 

[Federberg]

You weren't listening to the video you posted if you didn't understand that the chemical blockers are all reversible.

lol! Yes I listened. What I find amazing and quite horrific quite frankly is that you're ok with gender altering chemicals being used on children. I don't care if it's reversible or not! Out of curiosity are you ok with children having cosmetic surgery? Because I can tell you for free, I'm not ok with it. And one could argue that's reversible too. Cosmetic surgery is far less problematic for me than gender altering drugs. Both are child abuse in my book. I can't tell you how horrified I am that people are ok with it

 

[Federberg]

I do believe that some children have gender dysphoria from early on. These are/might be truly trans-people. However, I'm going to posit that an option for rebellion in this generation is also declaring non-binary. Kids look for ways to stand out, to contradict their parents, to act out. This is one that is available to them that was not available to us. Try to be understanding.

I'm going to give you a personal example. And I will defy her current pronouns to make it more clear to you. This girl lost her parents in a tragic car accident when she was 6. She is artistically gifted, extremely intelligent, is surrounded by loving family, and has had the value of good therapy for all these years,. And yet, in her late teens, she is threatening to quit school. She has changed her name and now goes by they/them pronouns. In our day, that kind of acting out went generally to drugs. I'm not in the least sorry that they have this kind outlet for unresolved anger and pain. They will sort themself out, eventually, I am confident. But if teenage angst has an outlet that is NOT drugs, I, for one, am grateful.

It feels to me that people have succumbed to the latest fashionable faux-scientific diagnosis. It's totally out of control. I wouldn't in the least bit be surprised if in decades to come people look back in horror at some of nonsense that people have done in recent years. Giving children drugs to solve mental problems. The therapeutic solutions might not be effective enough right now to help these poor kids. But it feels to me like using leeches as cure alls in times past. We don't know what we don't know. The whole thing is an atrocity. I shake my head at parents like Dwayne Wade quite frankly. This is madness

 

[Moxie]

I'm really surprised at both of you, Kieran and Federberg, for your hysterical language and outrageous comparisons. You're both intelligent and good at formulating arguments, and I think you're both way over the top here, esp. ol' Kieran, acting like someone's parents are forcing this upon them, rather than the children generating it themselves. And it doesn't always involve chemicals. Listen, I'm not saying I'm in favor of all of this. I agree it's very complicated. But I don't think that anyone personally involved in this takes it lightly. And I don't see any trans people bothering me. And I live where there are lots of them, I'd say.

 

[Kieran]

I'm really surprised at both of you, Kieran and Federberg, for your hysterical language and outrageous comparisons. You're both intelligent and good at formulating arguments, and I think you're both way over the top here, esp. ol' Kieran, acting like someone's parents are forcing this upon them, rather than the children generating it themselves. And it doesn't always involve chemicals. Listen, I'm not saying I'm in favor of all of this. I agree it's very complicated. But I don't think that anyone personally involved in this takes it lightly. And I don't see any trans people bothering me. And I live where there are lots of them, I'd say.

Sorry, but this doesn't fly. There's no hysterical language being used, unless you have some reason for thinking that these "treatments" are all above board and ethical. In which case, I'd suggest you look at things objectively instead. And children aren't generating this, any more than a sexually abused child or woman "was asking for it."

They're children, FFS. We chemically castrate rapists, not children!

 

[Federberg]

I'm really surprised at both of you, Kieran and Federberg, for your hysterical language and outrageous comparisons. You're both intelligent and good at formulating arguments, and I think you're both way over the top here, esp. ol' Kieran, acting like someone's parents are forcing this upon them, rather than the children generating it themselves. And it doesn't always involve chemicals. Listen, I'm not saying I'm in favor of all of this. I agree it's very complicated. But I don't think that anyone personally involved in this takes it lightly. And I don't see any trans people bothering me. And I live where there are lots of them, I'd say.

I don't understand what you mean about children generating "it" themselves. Generating what? They live in a society where this gender fluidity crap is being discussed on television and schools. Some impressionable children are going to be caught up in all that and believe that they are gender fluid. There is nothing outrageous or hysterical about reacting to what's going on right now. I would rather flip it back at you, and wonder why you are so permissive of all this stuff that's going on. This is straight up child neglect at a minimum but frankly when the chemicals are deployed it's abuse. Nothing more nothing less

 

[Moxie]

no comparison was made, and you know that perfectly well. My focus was on how society deals with both issues.

I don't think you made the point the way you meant to, then. Society deals with pedophiles as criminals, because they are. Society deals with trans people how, then, that you find comparable, or in a way that is worth putting them together in a post of only, what, 5 sentences? You know enough about argument to realize what it means to put these things together. I honestly believe you don't think you meant to conflate the two, but reread your post.

 

[Moxie]

Sorry, but this doesn't fly. There's no hysterical language being used, unless you have some reason for thinking that these "treatments" are all above board and ethical. In which case, I'd suggest you look at things objectively instead. And children aren't generating this, any more than a sexually abused child or woman "was asking for it."

They're children, FFS. We chemically castrate rapists, not children!

I would argue that there is hysterical language being used. Just look at your post I'm quoting here. To even compare it to the offensive, as you clearly imply, notion that abused children and women are "asking for it," is an inflammatory way of talking about what is going on. You're using the language of abuse to discuss this, which I think is out-sized. And just to quote you, you've said "brainlessly with the zeitgeist," "grooming," "abusing," and "forcing it on kids." I'm just saying that this is language that I'd say tips your hand, and is less conducive to calm discussion. I have said, again and again, that I find the issue complicated, and I'm not in any camp. I just think that you guys who think these parents and doctors who are "abusing their children," as you would have it, have not at least entertained discussions of what they are going through and how they are handling it.

 

[Moxie]

I don't understand what you mean about children generating "it" themselves. Generating what? They live in a society where this gender fluidity crap is being discussed on television and schools. Some impressionable children are going to be caught up in all that and believe that they are gender fluid. There is nothing outrageous or hysterical about reacting to what's going on right now. I would rather flip it back at you, and wonder why you are so permissive of all this stuff that's going on. This is straight up child neglect at a minimum but frankly when the chemicals are deployed it's abuse. Nothing more nothing less

I see how strongly you feel this. By "it" I do mean that some children feel less conforming to gender norms. I think I spelled that out really well above. Of course, you give your opinion by calling gender fluidity "crap." I absolutely do not believe that "impressionable children" will find themselves gender-fluid, if it doesn't apply to to them. I, for one, would have made an excellent lesbian, but it simply doesn't apply to me. And I was a tomboy. I do not believe that had I grown up in this era, it would not have changed my sense of self one iota. But there are kids that don't fit into the boxes that society creates. For any number of reasons. And one of them, we realize, and I think reasonably, is that the old strictures on gender definitions, and also in terms of a binary sexuality is not for everyone. I think, or I hope, we can all agree here that old notions of "what men do" and "what women do" is rather out-dated and overly-confining. The conversation now is about opening it up to make room for everyone. What I'm trying to say to you guys is that I'm also cautious about learning what all of this means, but I do keep an open mind. My experience is not one of doctors and parents coming down like demons on their kids and forcing chemical castration on them. Nor is it of men pretending to be women to prey on women. It's a lot of people just sorting themselves out as not quite as binary as we thought we were. And it's more about grown-ups than kids. I'm just suggesting that you guys not be so freaked out about it, or treat it as some public heath crisis, or crisis of culture, which I don't think it is.

 

[Kieran]

I would argue that there is hysterical language being used. Just look at your post I'm quoting here. To even compare it to the offensive, as you clearly imply, notion that abused children and women are "asking for it," is an inflammatory way of talking about what is going on. You're using the language of abuse to discuss this, which I think is out-sized. And just to quote you, you've said "brainlessly with the zeitgeist," "grooming," "abusing," and "forcing it on kids." I'm just saying that this is language that I'd say tips your hand, and is less conducive to calm discussion.

And yet, I’m totally calm. Funny, isn’t it? But you’ve chosen to discredit me by dismissing my view as “hysterical”, which is a form of ad hominem, while it also gives you a ready excuse to avoid the implication what’s being said.

Children “running brainlessly with the zeitgeist” is what children do. If I was to use your plainer terms, “kids kind of acting out,” or “an option of rebellion for kids in this generation”, would that affect the substance of what’s being said? It wouldn’t, so then deal with what’s being said.

And likewise your other complaints. when you said that children are generating this, is exactly the same as victim blaming. Exactly the same. Children don’t know their arse from their elbow when they’re four years old, and yet the radical therapist has decided that they can already decide things like the distinction between their gender and sex?

Anyone discussing such things with a child, with the intention of “affirming” then in their choice, is grooming the child. They’re sexualising a child. They’ve decided already the course. The woman in the video can’t even tell you what a woman is - and by the way, in your haste to dismiss objections as hysterical, you forgot to deal with, or answer, any of the actual objections, such as - she won’t say what a woman is and yet she affirms little boys who thinks they may be little girls.

I have said, again and again, that I find the issue complicated, and I'm not in any camp. I just think that you guys who think these parents and doctors who are "abusing their children," as you would have it, have not at least entertained discussions of what they are going through and how they are handling it.

You are in a camp. You’ve used the term “ciswoman.” You’ve accepted that such a term is valid. You’ve followed the party line straight down the middle in all your replies. You’ve internalised without question these terms the left use all the time. If the right gave us these terms, you would be with us in attacking this, and you’d call it what it is: abuse of children. But you’ll never criticise the left.

So when the leftist revolutionary is being questioned by a right winger, it’s the right winger who’s got the agenda, and the woman who says things like, “gender is a constellation,” and “a woman is someone who claims to be a woman”, well, she’s got no agenda. Despite the fact that what she’s saying is a society-changing revolution.

Giving chemical castration drugs to little boys? That’s not an agenda, and it’s reversible. And anyway, the little boy generated their own abuse.

Of course you’re in a camp, but playing your cards carefully to appear objective, and “calm”, and compassionate. But it’s a false form of compassion. It’s a form of compassion that overlooks abuse of children because you don’t want to criticise your tribe.

If you want a starting point on this, to find the issue less “complicated”, I suggest you ask yourself, objectively and without reference to your party - “what is a woman?” - then compare it with what the activist said in the video: “a woman is someone who claims to be a woman.”

Think on the illogic of that. The circular meaninglessness of it. The evasive politicians sheen. Try unpack it, and then tell me if any of this is complicated…

 

[Federberg]

I don't think you made the point the way you meant to, then. Society deals with pedophiles as criminals, because they are. Society deals with trans people how, then, that you find comparable, or in a way that is worth putting them together in a post of only, what, 5 sentences? You know enough about argument to realize what it means to put these things together. I honestly believe you don't think you meant to conflate the two, but reread your post.

Context context context. I responded specifically to a comment you made.. “There have always been trans-people.” To which I countered that there have always been paeadophiles too. That's an example not a comparison. Surely you understand that?

This was from your own train of thought so it’s funny you didn’t get the extension. If you found it unclear let me try to clarify it for you. What society considers criminal in this day and age is a function of what society finds acceptable at this particular point in time. You can take the logic train from there…

 

[Federberg]

I see how strongly you feel this. By "it" I do mean that some children feel less conforming to gender norms. I think I spelled that out really well above. Of course, you give your opinion by calling gender fluidity "crap." I absolutely do not believe that "impressionable children" will find themselves gender-fluid, if it doesn't apply to to them. I, for one, would have made an excellent lesbian, but it simply doesn't apply to me. And I was a tomboy. I do not believe that had I grown up in this era, it would not have changed my sense of self one iota. But there are kids that don't fit into the boxes that society creates. For any number of reasons. And one of them, we realize, and I think reasonably, is that the old strictures on gender definitions, and also in terms of a binary sexuality is not for everyone. I think, or I hope, we can all agree here that old notions of "what men do" and "what women do" is rather out-dated and overly-confining. The conversation now is about opening it up to make room for everyone. What I'm trying to say to you guys is that I'm also cautious about learning what all of this means, but I do keep an open mind. My experience is not one of doctors and parents coming down like demons on their kids and forcing chemical castration on them. Nor is it of men pretending to be women to prey on women. It's a lot of people just sorting themselves out as not quite as binary as we thought we were. And it's more about grown-ups than kids. I'm just suggesting that you guys not be so freaked out about it, or treat it as some public heath crisis, or crisis of culture, which I don't think it is.

I find it amusing how you constantly try to frame this as a discussion about our "feelings" and our responses being "hysterical" or you think you're exposing our "fear". As if there's some irrational over-emotional trigger that holds sway over us. I hope I'm wrong but this is the sort of thing that gets ordinary folk hating on progressives - the sense of superiority they seem to have when they find themselves in some ethical cul de sac of their own making. Let me be clear, and I'll presume for just a moment to speak on behalf of "us". You've misdiagnosed the emotional response. It's not fear... it's disgust.

"What men do" or "what women do" were societal expectations that restricted the aspirations of both sexes. it was entirely right and progressive to discard those constraints. Please don't try to conflate self identification which is about "feeling" with actual capabilities. Again I repeat why draw the line there? Let's say instead I "feel" like a tiger (blame my partner, she's always telling me I am! ), and I choose to self identify as one. Why is this different to the gender nonsense? You do realise there are people who genuinely identify as other animals? It's a real thing...

 

[Federberg]

 

[Kieran]

Not grooming them at all, are they?

 

[Moxie]

I see we're much farther apart on this than I had thought.

 

[britbox]

No one is forcing it on your kids.

Actually, you're right. Nobody is forcing it on my kids. I've only one left in school, and he's in his last year.

Nevertheless, as a parent I fully understand how impressionable kids are. Particularly, from people they deem as an "authority" figure.

There is old maxim of wisdom "Give me a child until he's 7 years old and I'll show you the man". Children are very impressionable. Take a child to see a Star Wars film, and he'll be playing around with a make-believe life saber for weeks or months. We don't need schools presenting drag artists as some source of authority.

You're confusing children. I don't know any parent who asked for this crap. We expect schools to teach rudimentary English, Mathematics, Physics etc.... not brainwashing and confusing impressionable infants.

Everything works in cycles historically. If you think of this as a pendulum, it will swing back very hard in your direction.

 

[britbox]

The other issue I'll bite on Moxie - is the "men ruling the word" maxim. Traditionally, women had a bigger role in bringing up children, the next generation. Passed down knowledge, skills, wisdom - it was (and still is) the most important job in the world.

 

[tented]

Unfortunately they don’t have the original episode on YouTube, but here’s a follow-up video 60 Minutes posted in reference to a longer story about trans health care. You can get the idea of the original story.