Serious PC thread

[Kieran]

If I get sent things that are pertinent to this thread, there's nothing wrong with posting it for others to see. I for one don't think this is a settled issue. Quite the opposite. Frankly I would like to see reversals from this madness

Well, the difficulty with this is that the madness is being normalised and encouraged by cowardly governments and others, in the west. There's a whole generation of kids going to be badly abused by this, growing up believing that it's normal, natural and true, being coerced into horrible body-changing procedures, and chemical castrations, and having only marginalised voices - "bigots," "TERFs", "transphobes" and so on, people they've been told are evil - to tell them otherwise.

It makes me despair at how we hold conversations these days, and at the damage and abuse we're allowing to continue...

 

[Moxie]

If I get sent things that are pertinent to this thread, there's nothing wrong with posting it for others to see. I for one don't think this is a settled issue. Quite the opposite. Frankly I would like to see reversals from this madness

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be bossy. I just sort of thought we were all agreed about trans-women not competing in sports with cis-women. I also thought that you guys had said you didn't have a problem with transpeople, in general, but I see how deeply bothersome it is, for you and Kieran, at least, and I know britbox has a big problem with it, but he hasn't had much to say for a while. As to "reversals from this madness," I wonder if you mean you'd rather not see so many people coming out as trans, or that you'd like to see a stop to the harassment by those who call everything "transphobia," or what reversals you would call for?

 

[Moxie]

Well, the difficulty with this is that the madness is being normalised and encouraged by cowardly governments and others, in the west. There's a whole generation of kids going to be badly abused by this, growing up believing that it's normal, natural and true, being coerced into horrible body-changing procedures, and chemical castrations, and having only marginalised voices - "bigots," "TERFs", "transphobes" and so on, people they've been told are evil - to tell them otherwise.

It makes me despair at how we hold conversations these days, and at the damage and abuse we're allowing to continue...

I find this quite the over-reaction, personally. Particularly the bolded above. I think it's fair to extract the PC police who are doing a lot of bullying out there of people who are trying to have a dialogue, (my Martina quote is an example,) from the notion that some people are actually intersex or trans, and that the normalization of that is a bad thing. There have always been trans-people. This is not new.

And I really don't think a lot of kids, if any, are going to be "coerced" into anything they don't want. I don't believe anyone wants their kid to be "trans." However, I do know a few parents of trans children, and the evolution is gradual, and not taken without consultation and therapy. Also, my understanding is that doctors don't perform the more body-changing surgeries without a period of therapy, and certainly not on underage children.

I guess I am getting how scary this is for some guys, now.

 

[Kieran]

fook me.....

I find this quite the over-reaction, personally. Particularly the bolded above. I think it's fair to extract the PC police who are doing a lot of bullying out there of people who are trying to have a dialogue, (my Martina quote is an example,) from the notion that some people are actually intersex or trans, and that the normalization of that is a bad thing. There have always been trans-people. This is not new.

And I really don't think a lot of kids, if any, are going to be "coerced" into anything they don't want. I don't believe anyone wants their kid to be "trans." However, I do know a few parents of trans children, and the evolution is gradual, and not taken without consultation and therapy. Also, my understanding is that doctors don't perform the more body-changing surgeries without a period of therapy, and certainly not on underage children.

I guess I am getting how scary this is for some guys, now.

I think you should watch the interview with the woman in the video that Federberg posted above, and be very scared. She is giving chemical castration drugs to children and she thinks that this is normal. She is unable to defend it because she lives in a bubble where “therapists” like her are essentially activists, not questioning their role, and thinking that any awkward questions about it are “malignant”, and won’t be answered. And because the trans lobby is so vicious and destructive, governments are allowing this abuse to continue.

As for your post above, where you said:

As to "reversals from this madness," I wonder if you mean you'd rather not see so many people coming out as trans, or that you'd like to see a stop to the harassment by those who call everything "transphobia," or what reversals you would call for?

I can’t answer for anyone else here, but I wouldn’t want to stop anyone from coming out as trans, but I would like the harassment to stop, obviously, and then allow a civilised discussion to begin, where a certain scepticism was permitted as to the question of whether a person actually can transition from one gender to another, a discussion that virulently interrogates the whole notion of trans, given that now we’re seeing such rapid change and innovation in this area. A discussion that includes science, biology, etc. When people say that “gender is a social construct,” we should insist they show proof of this, including where the construct began and how it spread throughout the whole world. When people insist there are 672 genders, they should feel obliged to tell us where the other 670 genders were hiding until now. Where people are questioned more deeply - and yes, compassionately - about their choices, to ascertain whether they’re okay, and what makes them think that they’re trans. Leave out the tiny biological anomalies, intersex, I, for one, am not referring to them.

This shouldn’t be a left or right thing. Politics has unfortunately poisoned everything, but I’m glad to know many liberal souls who are appalled by the unquestioning rapidity of the growth of trans ideologies, though largely trans issues are defended by people on the left..

 

[Moxie]

I think you should watch the interview with the woman in the video that Federberg posted above, and be very scared. She is giving chemical castration drugs to children and she thinks that this is normal. She is unable to defend it because she lives in a bubble where “therapists” like her are essentially activists, not questioning their role, and thinking that any awkward questions about it are “malignant”, and won’t be answered. And because the trans lobby is so vicious and destructive, governments are allowing this abuse to continue.

OK, I did watch that video. I'm really stunned that you guys are giving any credence to it. First of all, that guy is the same goofball that Federberg posted a video about before...the white guy with the beard. He clearly has an agenda. Also, I have no problem with what that doctor says. She tells you that what she does is reversible, and she says that she's listening to children. That dude is just against it. As I said, he has an agenda, clearly. I think that woman held her own.

As for your post above, where you said:



I can’t answer for anyone else here, but I wouldn’t want to stop anyone from coming out as trans, but I would like the harassment to stop, obviously, and then allow a civilised discussion to begin, where a certain scepticism was permitted as to the question of whether a person actually can transition from one gender to another, a discussion that virulently interrogates the whole notion of trans, given that now we’re seeing such rapid change and innovation in this area. A discussion that includes science, biology, etc. When people say that “gender is a social construct,” we should insist they show proof of this, including where the construct began and how it spread throughout the whole world. When people insist there are 672 genders, they should feel obliged to tell us where the other 670 genders were hiding until now. Where people are questioned more deeply - and yes, compassionately - about their choices, to ascertain whether they’re okay, and what makes them think that they’re trans. Leave out the tiny biological anomalies, intersex, I, for one, am not referring to them.

This shouldn’t be a left or right thing. Politics has unfortunately poisoned everything, but I’m glad to know many liberal souls who are appalled by the unquestioning rapidity of the growth of trans ideologies, though largely trans issues are defended by people on the left..

I don't see it as a left/right thing, and we should leave that off. The question is about understanding what trans means, and, if I'm understanding you, if it actually exists.. I appreciate you want to be allowed the skepticism to discuss what all of this means. I disagree with the bullying going on that attempts to stifle conversation. It's a complicated thing, and most of us have a hard time understanding it. When you ask for proof that "gender is a social construct," I would beg to differ with you that this needs proving. The Massai in that video just reinforces it. Women make babies and tend to them, and men do the rest. The social construct has kept women down for millennia. Because men made it. There is no reason that men shouldn't tend the babies and women rule the world, is there? You'd still have your binary world, only it would be shaped differently. The fact that women carry the babies is the reason that we insist on the chastity of women, so that male lines can be determined. It's the reason that abortion is such a hot topic in the US. It's the reason that feminism is still a bad word, and so many people on even this puny forum freak out when we talk about equal pay for women in tennis. So, yes, gender is a social construct.

I don't know where you got that there are 672 genders. Curious about that.

 

[Kieran]

OK, I did watch that video. I'm really stunned that you guys are giving any credence to it. First of all, that guy is the same goofball that Federberg posted a video about before...the white guy with the beard. He clearly has an agenda. Also, I have no problem with what that doctor says. She tells you that what she does is reversible, and she says that she's listening to children. That dude is just against it. As I said, he has an agenda, clearly. I think that woman held her own.

Yes, he’s against it. Thankfully. Matt Walsh is very sharp, and throughout the documentary he asks many people - including women on a women’s march - “what is a woman?”, and he’s confronted by the most confounding mystery of the age - none of them want to tell him. Why? Your guess is as good as mine, but it might well be because they don’t want to fall foul of the trans jihadists who will make their lives miserable. This seems most likely. The lowlifes who’ll hound them mercilessly.

So women are afraid to say what a woman is. Imagine that. Hard to imagine that they don’t know what a woman is. Or else they’ve swallowed a poisoned pill, a toxic ideological one. You heard that therapist say something along the lines that a woman is somebody who identifies as a woman. Which doesn’t tell us what they’re identifying as, or how she decides that the person who identifies as a woman even knows what a woman is.

I don't see it as a left/right thing, and we should leave that off. The question is about understanding what trans means, and, if I'm understanding you, if it actually exists.. I appreciate you want to be allowed the skepticism to discuss what all of this means. I disagree with the bullying going on that attempts to stifle conversation. It's a complicated thing, and most of us have a hard time understanding it. When you ask for proof that "gender is a social construct," I would beg to differ with you that this needs proving. The Massai in that video just reinforces it. Women make babies and tend to them, and men do the rest. The social construct has kept women down for millennia. Because men made it. There is no reason that men shouldn't tend the babies and women rule the world, is there? You'd still have your binary world, only it would be shaped differently. The fact that women carry the babies is the reason that we insist on the chastity of women, so that male lines can be determined. It's the reason that abortion is such a hot topic in the US. It's the reason that feminism is still a bad word, and so many people on even this puny forum freak out when we talk about equal pay for women in tennis. So, yes, gender is a social construct.


I don't know where you got that there are 672 genders. Curious about that.

Google how many genders are there. I don’t know how many there are now. We could be up to as much as a million.

As for gender as a social construct, you haven’t proved that nature didn’t force roles on people, and that people were forced to accept them to survive. This seems more likely than the idea that nefarious men bullied women into minding the kids while the men went off and hunted and fought brutal wars to protect them. And wars and battles were a constant in human history, even among small tribes. So it makes sense that women would tend the babies and the men would take on the protective role.

This isn’t to say that women didn’t also fight, but it’s too state something that’s obvious, men are physically more aggressive and stronger in general, so they’re the ones who’d be protectors.

That’s nature, and not some sneaky patriarchy manoeuvre.

And yes, it’s unfortunately a left/right thing. The most likely person to try sell you a trans ticket is somebody on the radical left. And this is also why it’s become a difficult conversation to have, not only because the political divisions between people who stump for these two tribes are too nasty and broad to bring them together for civilised discussion - and blame for this lies equally with both sides - but both sides also have different views on things like compassion. There’s are even difficulties in assessing what truth is. When the woman in the video says “it depends on whose truth you mean”, referring to this Oprah-lite philosophy that you have your truth but I have my truth, it showed how difficult it then could be to get through to somebody who doesn’t believe in truth or reality at all…

 

[Federberg]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be bossy. I just sort of thought we were all agreed about trans-women not competing in sports with cis-women. I also thought that you guys had said you didn't have a problem with transpeople, in general, but I see how deeply bothersome it is, for you and Kieran, at least, and I know britbox has a big problem with it, but he hasn't had much to say for a while. As to "reversals from this madness," I wonder if you mean you'd rather not see so many people coming out as trans, or that you'd like to see a stop to the harassment by those who call everything "transphobia," or what reversals you would call for?

I mean reversals of the State sanctioning this nonsense. Trans-women should not be in female prison. I agree they would be in danger in male prison, so make a new prison for them. As far as I'm concerned no one under the age of 21 should be allowed to alter their sex. What I see right now is straight child abuse imho

 

[Federberg]

I find this quite the over-reaction, personally. Particularly the bolded above. I think it's fair to extract the PC police who are doing a lot of bullying out there of people who are trying to have a dialogue, (my Martina quote is an example,) from the notion that some people are actually intersex or trans, and that the normalization of that is a bad thing. There have always been trans-people. This is not new.

And I really don't think a lot of kids, if any, are going to be "coerced" into anything they don't want. I don't believe anyone wants their kid to be "trans." However, I do know a few parents of trans children, and the evolution is gradual, and not taken without consultation and therapy. Also, my understanding is that doctors don't perform the more body-changing surgeries without a period of therapy, and certainly not on underage children.

I guess I am getting how scary this is for some guys, now.

There have always been trans-people yes. There have always been paedophiles too. While I'm not saying trans-people are the same as paedophiles my point is that, just because these folks have been around since time immemorial doesn't exclude potential harm to society. Trans-people do not of themselves injure society. But... if their cause is upheld to such an extent that children are permitted to change themselves then it becomes a problem. There's an Asian American woman. I forget her name, but she conducted research that shows that many of the children who choose to transition turn out to be homosexual, and were simply confused about who or what they were in childhood, then it behoves society to give them the space to grow and make informed choices. Choices that aren't really possible until they reach adulthood. The fact that they are being allowed to chemically alter themselves in their childhood is stunning to me. What the hell is going on? This Asian American woman was attacked for her scientific research. We can't come on here and excoriate those on the right who disavow science in the furtherance of their political beliefs and not do the same to those on the left. This is madness to me. There shouldn't be any politics in science

 

[Federberg]

Killer now identifies as an infant who wears nappies and wants baby food in jail

Sophie Eastwood, who was named Daniel at the time of their sentencing, is serving a life term at Polmont prison in Brightons, Scotland for using shoelaces to strangle a cell-mate to death in 2004

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Federberg]

OK, I did watch that video. I'm really stunned that you guys are giving any credence to it. First of all, that guy is the same goofball that Federberg posted a video about before...the white guy with the beard. He clearly has an agenda. Also, I have no problem with what that doctor says. She tells you that what she does is reversible, and she says that she's listening to children. That dude is just against it. As I said, he has an agenda, clearly. I think that woman held her own.

how is it possible that you see an agenda when the interviewer asks a basic question, but you don't see an agenda when the woman doctor responds. No one ever answers the question I continually pose. If I choose to identify as a tiger why is that any different from deciding to identify as another gender? The distinction seems completely arbitrary to me. If we are raising self identification to such a level then have at it. Let the madness play out. But as far as I'm concerned only in adulthood. People should be free to make their own informed choices, but only when they are mature enough to do so

 

[Kieran]

Killer now identifies as an infant who wears nappies and wants baby food in jail

Sophie Eastwood, who was named Daniel at the time of their sentencing, is serving a life term at Polmont prison in Brightons, Scotland for using shoelaces to strangle a cell-mate to death in 2004

www.mirror.co.uk

It's barbaric and Dickensian that an infant is subjected to a life behind bars. I thought we lived in a more enlightened age. Transphobic Nazi bigots...

 

[britbox]

It's barbaric and Dickensian that an infant is subjected to a life behind bars. I thought we lived in a more enlightened age. Transphobic Nazi bigots...

He could easily identify as "innocent". Must have bad lawyers.

 

[Kieran]

He could easily identify as "innocent". Must have bad lawyers.

Should have identified as the judge and stuck his accusers in prison!

 

[britbox]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be bossy. I just sort of thought we were all agreed about trans-women not competing in sports with cis-women. I also thought that you guys had said you didn't have a problem with transpeople, in general, but I see how deeply bothersome it is, for you and Kieran, at least, and I know britbox has a big problem with it, but he hasn't had much to say for a while. As to "reversals from this madness," I wonder if you mean you'd rather not see so many people coming out as trans, or that you'd like to see a stop to the harassment by those who call everything "transphobia," or what reversals you would call for?

Big problem with what Moxie? If somebody wants to dress up as a woman (or vice versa) and pretend that's who they are... then why would I care? Each to their own.
Try and force that shit on my kids... then you've got my attention... and that's where we are right now. Transphobia? indicates I'm scared of these people. Not scared at all... but deranged 'progressives' have crossed the proverbial line in the sand. The most bizarre thing of all? Where champions of women's' rights can't even figure out what a woman is. Cis-woman? Lol.

 

[Kieran]

He could easily identify as "innocent". Must have bad lawyers.

And by the way, to look at this further, people may say that this case is an absurd outlier, that it's an example of fraud - or mental illness.

But how is this person being treated for any of this? Well, as the article says, "Prison bosses are taking Eastwood's requests seriously."

Another article shows that he's playing the old victim card, which is wise from his perspective, and typical of the age, since there's a sucker born every second.

Another article from Women Are Human details that "SPS [Scottish Prison Service] are considering which protocols should be established to address Eastwood’s latest demands to be treated as a baby, but have already supplied a soother" (a baby's dummy, in America). Eastwood and another male prisoner who identified as female, both were in a women's prison, but "despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour."

So they had to be moved. You can read about their behaviour in the article

So what are we to make of this? One thing is noticeable: these men identify as female, and the system absorbs this without resistance and then lets them into a women's prison, despite the fact that they convicted violent killers. Eastwood identifies as a baby and they give him a dummy. In other words, at no point have the claims been treated sceptically at all. Why not? Why are these claims taken seriously? And why are other prisoners placed in jeopardy because of this? It looks like the prison system is afraid to offend the trans lobby, to the extent that they're placing mentally ill - and violent - inmates into a prison where they can harm real women.

This is happening, and it's a disgusting failure in policy and procedure.

It's further proof that real women have become lesser citizens than men who dress up as women..

 

[britbox]

And by the way, to look at this further, people may say that this case is an absurd outlier, that it's an example of fraud - or mental illness.

But how is this person being treated for any of this? Well, as the article says, "Prison bosses are taking Eastwood's requests seriously."

Another article shows that he's playing the old victim card, which is wise from his perspective, and typical of the age, since there's a sucker born every second.

Another article from Women Are Human details that "SPS [Scottish Prison Service] are considering which protocols should be established to address Eastwood’s latest demands to be treated as a baby, but have already supplied a soother" (a baby's dummy, in America). Eastwood and another male prisoner who identified as female, both were in a women's prison, but "despite their new female identities neither have had surgery, and fellow inmates complained that they felt intimidated around the pair because of their behaviour."

So they had to be moved. You can read about their behaviour in the article

So what are we to make of this? One thing is noticeable: these men identify as female, and the system absorbs this without resistance and then lets them into a women's prison, despite the fact that they convicted violent killers. Eastwood identifies as a baby and they give him a dummy. In other words, at no point have the claims been treated sceptically at all. Why not? Why are these claims taken seriously? And why are other prisoners placed in jeopardy because of this? It looks like the prison system is afraid to offend the trans lobby, to the extent that they're placing mentally ill - and violent - inmates into a prison where they can harm real women.

This is happening, and it's a disgusting failure in policy and procedure.

But better that, than to call them out on it, it seems. Best not to offend these men, even at the cost of endangering women...

Good times and comfort breed weak men. Hard times and adversity breed strong men. That's just the way it's been from the beginning.

 

[Kieran]

Good times and comfort breed weak men. Hard times and adversity breed strong men. That's just the way it's been from the beginning.

If you look at it from a grand perspective, from the story arc of a civilisation, it certainly seems that West has moved into the comfy stage, where there are more rights, more money, more gadgets and comforts and better health, and everything else, than there ever has been before - anywhere - and so this can be seen as the start of the great decay. A sign that we've had it too good and are now making up struggles, lying about our history to make it out to be an evil history, and attacking our past in a way that we wouldn't attack other cultures, and always with the intention to make it out that the modern west is the worst place in history, and that its past is populated by uniquely bad people.

Fortunately, I think we're reaching peak trans, at least, and there's a bite back happening...

 

[britbox]

OK, I did watch that video. I'm really stunned that you guys are giving any credence to it. First of all, that guy is the same goofball that Federberg posted a video

If you look at it from a grand perspective, from the story arc of a civilisation, it certainly seems that West has moved into the comfy stage, where there are more rights, more money, more gadgets and comforts and better health, and everything else, than there ever has been before - anywhere - and so this can be seen as the start of the great decay. A sign that we've had it too good and are now making up struggles, lying about our history to make it out to be an evil history, and attacking our past in a way that we wouldn't attack other cultures, and always with the intention to make it out that the modern west is the worst place in history, and that its past is populated by uniquely bad people.

Fortunately, I think we're reaching peak trans, at least, and there's a bite back happening...

All empires self-destroy. It's never from the outside but from within. It's quite bizarre that so many Americans are going to be faced with a food shortage in the coming months, yet will peddle party lines until they are blue in the face.

 

[Kieran]

All empires self-destroy. It's never from the outside but from within. It's quite bizarre that so many Americans are going to be faced with a food shortage in the coming months, yet will peddle party lines until they are blue in the face.

That's it. Tribal politics, and identity politics - the twin rocks we perish on...

 

[Moxie]

There have always been trans-people yes. There have always been paedophiles too. While I'm not saying trans-people are the same as paedophiles my point is that, just because these folks have been around since time immemorial doesn't exclude potential harm to society. Trans-people do not of themselves injure society. But... if their cause is upheld to such an extent that children are permitted to change themselves then it becomes a problem.

You may not have meant to put those two sentences against each other, but you did compare trans-people with pedophiles. You say they're not the same, but you see both as dangerous. I happen to disagree.

There's an Asian American woman. I forget her name, but she conducted research that shows that many of the children who choose to transition turn out to be homosexual, and were simply confused about who or what they were in childhood, then it behoves society to give them the space to grow and make informed choices. Choices that aren't really possible until they reach adulthood. The fact that they are being allowed to chemically alter themselves in their childhood is stunning to me. What the hell is going on? This Asian American woman was attacked for her scientific research. We can't come on here and excoriate those on the right who disavow science in the furtherance of their political beliefs and not do the same to those on the left. This is madness to me. There shouldn't be any politics in science

You weren't listening to the video you posted if you didn't understand that the chemical blockers are all reversible.

I do agree that children need the space to grow and make choices. I think we all would and do. What I think we dinosaurs around here need to understand is that, within the options for this generation to explore is not just an either/or in terms of their sexuality. And gender non-conformity is also more open to them than it ever was to us, which I also think is a good thing. A girl doesn't have to be labeled a "tomboy," and a boy doesn't have to be labeled a "sissy." And now these things don't mean the girl will be a lesbian, or the boy will be gay. They have more flexibility to find what makes them happy with less gender-conforming restriction.

I do believe that some children have gender dysphoria from early on. These are/might be truly trans-people. However, I'm going to posit that an option for rebellion in this generation is also declaring non-binary. Kids look for ways to stand out, to contradict their parents, to act out. This is one that is available to them that was not available to us. Try to be understanding.

I'm going to give you a personal example. And I will defy her current pronouns to make it more clear to you. This girl lost her parents in a tragic car accident when she was 6. She is artistically gifted, extremely intelligent, is surrounded by loving family, and has had the value of good therapy for all these years,. And yet, in her late teens, she is threatening to quit school. She has changed her name and now goes by they/them pronouns. In our day, that kind of acting out went generally to drugs. I'm not in the least sorry that they have this kind outlet for unresolved anger and pain. They will sort themself out, eventually, I am confident. But if teenage angst has an outlet that is NOT drugs, I, for one, am grateful.