Rogers Cup, Montreal, Canada, ATP Masters

herios

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El Dude, the historical data is just that. Useful for reference purposes. Things have changed. Every commentator, analyst admits it, but you keep bringing it up over and over.

By the way, Sasha looks like the exception, not the norm. Aside him, all his peers have done not much so far.
 
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Moxie

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Thiem is down a set and a break and has his work cut out for him.
 

kskate2

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just tuned in. why is Domi struggling w/ Diego?
 

Moxie

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El Dude, the historical data is just that. Useful for reference purposes. Things have changed. Every commentator, analyst admits it, but you keep bringing it up over and over.

By the way, Sasha looks like the exception, not the norm. Aside him, all his peers have done not much so far.
I don't think the Dude is necessarily wrong, or that things have changed that much. Some players are having better results post-25, etc., but if we're talking about elite level, and I think that's part of what he's talking about, they show big results early. Sure, some players are doing well or better later career, but they tend to be mid-packers, like F. Lopez. Wawrinka is surely an anomaly. I agree with El Dude that, until we see a seismic shift, and if it isn't just because of this rather pathetic group, things are more likely to return more to the norms than be all about peaks and primes being seen shifted to hugely later. It remains to be seen, but I still think that it's a Zverev at 20 that is showing you he's going for the stars, not a 25-28 year old.
 

kskate2

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Domi w/ 3 SP's and got beat w/ a better shot on all of them. I have a feeling he's going to lose this
 

kskate2

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Thiem got lucky. Diego looks exhausted and kind of unraveled on that last SP. We're going 3
 

Moxie

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Stunning point, won by Schwartzman in the TB!

Hard-fought TB, but Thiem gets it done. Going 3.
 

Moxie

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Domi w/ 3 SP's and got beat w/ a better shot on all of them. I have a feeling he's going to lose this
I don't think so. I think Schwartzman has shown all of his cards.
 

kskate2

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we were having the same conversation last week when it went 3 sets w/ KA. We thought Domi would win it and he lost it. The same thing can happen here even though Diego and KA have completely different games.
 
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El Dude

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@herios, again, I am not saying it isn't true just that we don't know yet, unless you think the "lost generation" is just late blooming and about to reach peak form.That's basically my point: the data is skewed by a talent-poor cohort of players. And further: we don't know if players are starting their primes later because we haven't seen any new elite-level players emerge since del Potro in 2009 (I know Delpo isn't elite now, but when he broke through in 2009, he was looking like an elite player), or Stan more recently. But Stan could just be an outlier.

I personally don't think Nishikori, Raonic, et al are going to get any better, or at least not significantly so. Maybe someone of that group "does a Wawrinka" and blossoms in his late 20s, but like Stan, he too would be a historical outlier. Or maybe Milos finally has a great run and wins Wimbledon - but that doesn't mean he'd be any better than he is now, just that he played well and the opportunity was there.

One more thing: we're really talking about two things: the age at which players reach their prime form and the age at which they decline. I'm more inclined to agree that the latter is true - that players are extending their primes much later. But again, the data is inconclusive as to whether their primes are starting later...again, unless Kei, Milos, etc are all about to spike in performance and become elite players. I just don't see it. I just think that group is historically weak, and we need to look at the next wave of players to get a better sense of whether the prime has shifted.
 

Moxie

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Schwartzman is not going away. Some really great point construction from him.
 
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herios

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Domi is not as efficient on HC and usually not playing up to his top 10 status.
That is why I am never surprised if he gets upset in such events.
He plays the HC match like a clay match, and that is not a good strategy.
 
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GameSetAndMath

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But, he seems to have righted the ship. Up a break in the decider.
 

Moxie

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Fails to close it out and now it's 5-4. Back on serve.
 

herios

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But, he seems to have righted the ship. Up a break in the decider.
Even if he gets this one done, this match just shows that Dom is working too hard to dispatch a mid fielder player. By the later rounds he will be too exhausted and will lose.
For me, on HC, Dom is not better than a 10-20 ranked player.
 

Moxie

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Even if he gets this one done, this match just shows that Dom is working too hard to dispatch a mid fielder player. By the later rounds he will be too exhausted and will lose.
For me, on HC, Dom is not better than a 10-20 ranked player.
I get your point, but I think he can learn to play better on HC. He's very disciplined.
 

herios

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@herios, again, I am not saying it isn't true just that we don't know yet, unless you think the "lost generation" is just late blooming and about to reach peak form.That's basically my point: the data is skewed by a talent-poor cohort of players. And further: we don't know if players are starting their primes later because we haven't seen any new elite-level players emerge since del Potro in 2009 (I know Delpo isn't elite now, but when he broke through in 2009, he was looking like an elite player), or Stan more recently. But Stan could just be an outlier.

I personally don't think Nishikori, Raonic, et al are going to get any better, or at least not significantly so. Maybe someone of that group "does a Wawrinka" and blossoms in his late 20s, but like Stan, he too would be a historical outlier. Or maybe Milos finally has a great run and wins Wimbledon - but that doesn't mean he'd be any better than he is now, just that he played well and the opportunity was there.

One more thing: we're really talking about two things: the age at which players reach their prime form and the age at which they decline. I'm more inclined to agree that the latter is true - that players are extending their primes much later. But again, the data is inconclusive as to whether their primes are starting later...again, unless Kei, Milos, etc are all about to spike in performance and become elite players. I just don't see it. I just think that group is historically weak, and we need to look at the next wave of players to get a better sense of whether the prime has shifted.
El Dude, analyze for a moment the women tennis field. There is also an age shift happening there too. It is not just there is weak era in men.