Nadalites – Rafa Nadal Talk

[Kieran]

"Already I think Carlos is better or as good on clay than Roger was in 2005-2011, the period Rafa played him"..

No Chance IMO.. Roger was a beast on clay.. by far was the 2nd best clay court player of the Big Three Generation.. Think about what I am saying .Carlos as you say still has a lot to prove. Roger and Novak's All court game puts a lot of stress on anyone even Rafa.

I don’t think Federer was ‘a beast on clay.’ He was certainly excellent, but I’d call Novak a beast on clay given his level for over a decade. Roger had a few years where he was second best to Rafa on clay, but it wasn’t a period where there were many great clay court players, and he was never a threat to Rafa in Paris. In 2004, with a bad hip, Gustavo Kuerten shrugged Federer off in straights in Paris. Kuerten was a great clay court player.

I think Carlos will be, as well. We know he’s already advanced for his age, but the bar is high with regards to who we can compare him to. It’s not Roger or Novak - it’s Rafa who we can easily compare him to. But again, Carlos isn’t my concern for Rafa. My concern for Rafa is that he’s got nothing going in, and the field will smell it…

 

[Kieran]

Here's the stats

Head to Head on Clay: Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic are locked 4-4 in their evenly-matched clay-court H2H record

Here’s another stat: Novak has beaten Rafa twice in Paris, and he’s won the tournament twice in Paris. Roger was never close to beating Rafa in Paris. Novak I think is of a much higher order than Roger on clay..

 

[Kieran]

We don't know how many, if any, more Slams Rafa would have won if he hadn't missed certain key Slams. But we can say that about a lot of things - in the careers of Novak and Roger, too, and countless others.

In the end, they accomplished what they accomplished. They all had challenges of different kinds. I find it overly simplistic (not to mention agenda driven) to always come back to this place of, "But Rafa had it hardest of all!"

I disagree with this, brother. Roger holds the record for consecutive slams entered. This obviously helped him in his achievements. Rafa holds the record among great players for number of slams missed through injury - especially the ones missed since he won his first one. He’s missed 9 in that period, out of about 70 slams.

This is an obvious hindrance to his chances of adding to his total.

I don’t think this argument has to be constantly litigated, but I also think we don’t need to be a genius to conclude that Rafa’s career has certainly been hindered by injury, and that this has benefited his main rivals…

 

[don_fabio]

My feeling is that Rafa still has that something in him for the last dance. To be able to prove it he must be completely healthy. Somehow it seems to me that it is not this year, or better to say that it is not this RG. But next year, if Rafa rests and is able to play for a few months, then everything is possible at what may be his last Roland Garros.

If Rafa plays this year RG and achieves 75-80 percent, it is still a high level and such Rafa would have a good chance against Alcaraz. I would give Rafa the advantage because of his experience, tennis IQ and 14 RGs in a pocket. Alcaraz could find himself in a situation where he is simply outplayed. Such Rafa could win this RG, no doubt. With Alcaraz there is still a little bit of unknown, we are not sure how capable he would be against the guy who owns that court.

I think that 50-60 percent Rafa has no chance against Alcaraz. Carlos is at an enviable level right now and some kind of inexperience would not play a role if Rafa is no good.

But if Rafa really comes to this RG barely healthy, without playing a single match for months and wins, then he is really not from this planet and there is nothing left for him to prove to anyone, not even to himself. He can retire immediately.

 

[Kieran]

But if Rafa really comes to this RG barely healthy, without playing a single match for months and wins, then he is really not from this planet and there is nothing left for him to prove to anyone, not even to himself. He can retire immediately.

I think if Rafa wins Paris this year it might be considered churlish to deny that he’s the greatest player of the last 20 years. Sure, Roger and Novak have had greater condensed periods of greatness, but across that time span? Rafa has been the real sticky…

 

[the AntiPusher]

My feeling is that Rafa still has that something in him for the last dance. To be able to prove it he must be completely healthy. Somehow it seems to me that it is not this year, or better to say that it is not this RG. But next year, if Rafa rests and is able to play for a few months, then everything is possible at what may be his last Roland Garros.

If Rafa plays this year RG and achieves 75-80 percent, it is still a high level and such Rafa would have a good chance against Alcaraz. I would give Rafa the advantage because of his experience, tennis IQ and 14 RGs in a pocket. Alcaraz could find himself in a situation where he is simply outplayed. Such Rafa could win this RG, no doubt. With Alcaraz there is still a little bit of unknown, we are not sure how capable he would be against the guy who owns that court.

I think that 50-60 percent Rafa has no chance against Alcaraz. Carlos is at an enviable level right now and some kind of inexperience would not play a role if Rafa is no good.

But if Rafa really comes to this RG barely healthy, without playing a single match for months and wins, then he is really not from this planet and there is nothing left for him to prove to anyone, not even to himself. He can retire immediately.

I agree with 99 percent of this but not the last sentence..no need to think of retirement especially when he was pretty much unbeatable last year until he got injured..

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think if Rafa wins Paris this year it might be considered churlish to deny that he’s the greatest player of the last 20 years. Sure, Roger and Novak have had greater condensed periods of greatness, but across that time span? Rafa has been the real sticky…

Maybe I'm bias but I see Rafa as the absolute GOAT regardless of the vast difference in his clay court tournaments in contrast to hard court, grass and carpet titles.

 

[don_fabio]

I think if Rafa wins Paris this year it might be considered churlish to deny that he’s the greatest player of the last 20 years. Sure, Roger and Novak have had greater condensed periods of greatness, but across that time span? Rafa has been the real sticky…

Did you say the greatest? I think I lost you there for a moment.

 

[Kieran]

Did you say the greatest? I think I lost you there for a moment.

Of the last 20 years, taken as a whole. Of the last ten years it’s Novak, and the ten before that it’s Roger, but the one who has been most consistently great across twenty years is Rafa…

 

[don_fabio]

Of the last 20 years, taken as a whole. Of the last ten years it’s Novak, and the ten before that it’s Roger, but the one who has been most consistently great across twenty years is Rafa…

I know what you meant and I have to agree with you. Rafa was a reason I started following tennis again. I kind of stopped watching it for a few years, because no one was matching Federer's game (and I was about 18 at the time and had other priorities). I would watch a slam final here and there, but that was about it.

So I have huge admiration for Rafa and for me he was always most exciting to watch of all big3.

 

[Kieran]

I know what you meant and I have to agree with you. Rafa was a reason I started following tennis again. I kind of stopped watching it for a few years, because no one was matching Federer's game (and I was about 18 at the time and had other priorities). I would watch a slam final here and there, but that was about it.

So I have huge admiration for Rafa and for me he was always most exciting to watch of all big3.

He’s a swashbuckler!

 

[Jelenafan]

He’s a swashbuckler!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

He’s a swashbuckler!

Maybe we should make Don Fabio an "Honorary Rafa Fan"
BTW Rafa is still staying strong at No 14 in the world rankings

 

[Kieran]

Maybe we should make Don Fabio an "Honorary Rafa Fan"

We’ll see. I sense that @Fiero425 would love an invite to join, I wouldn’t like to hurt his feelings by inviting the Don before him!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

We’ll see. I sense that @Fiero425 would love an invite to join, I wouldn’t like to hurt his feelings by inviting the Don before him!

Gee I was just on my sewing machine putting the final touches to a Rafa for LIfe fan tee shirt

 

[tented]

Here’s another stat: Novak has beaten Rafa twice in Paris, and he’s won the tournament twice in Paris. Roger was never close to beating Rafa in Paris. Novak I think is of a much higher order than Roger on clay..

I’d throw the 2013 RG SF in with this group, too, even though it wasn’t a final and Novak didn’t win. Nevertheless, it was an extremely competitive 5 sets, beyond anything Rafa and Roger ever did in Paris.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I’d throw the 2013 RG SF in with this group, too, even though it wasn’t a final and Novak didn’t win. Nevertheless, it was an extremely competitive 5 sets, beyond anything Rafa and Roger ever did in Paris.

Incdeed I was there live for the SF, with my Rosary Beads intact

 

[tented]

Incdeed I was there live for the SF, with my Rosary Beads intact

That must have been amazing! I wish I had been there, too.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

That must have been amazing! I wish I had been there, too.

At the time I did have other words than 'amazing' at times, afterwards it was lol! 9-7 in the 5th set Phew!

 

[Moxie]

That's because it's been talked about to death for years, and I'm thoroughly sick of going over the same stuff, again and again, or every topic eventually going back to Fedal Wars. And I'm especially sick of the endless defense of Rafa's legacy, even when no one is attacking it. I know some here make remarks, and I occasionally throw out a joking jab, but the "Rafa victimization complex" Is so out of whack with reality, and with the defense of any other player, that it dominates this forum, and we end up back at the same place, again and again.

And I did address it already, and you disagree with the idea I threw out. That's OK. We can disagree on that, but either way these are all hypotheticals: We don't know how many, if any, more Slams Rafa would have won if he hadn't missed certain key Slams. But we can say that about a lot of things - in the careers of Novak and Roger, too, and countless others.

In the end, they accomplished what they accomplished. They all had challenges of different kinds. I find it overly simplistic (not to mention agenda driven) to always come back to this place of, "But Rafa had it hardest of all!"

Of course. Rafa is great, with top tier accomplishments. What more do you want? Do we need to re-litigate this again and again?

As for Alcaraz and Rafa, more than anything I just want to see them play against each other. I'd prefer if Alcaraz won, but it is mostly because I'm ready for the new era. It isn't some personal agenda against Rafa. Not everyone is "Fiero242." Haha.

Hey, Dude, this is the Rafa's Thread, where we get to massage over old thoughts and topics over and over again.