Monte Carlo Rolex Masters 2017, Monaco, ATP Masters 1000

[Kieran]

I take no offence by the Tribble's post, I actually agree with a lot of it, and of course I was jesting, and I'm sure brother Front knows that, since we have a much better relationship than our TF spats suggest. I see the point MJT is making, but I'd also suggest that if we can't joke about things such as the changing roles in society, and especially the differences between males and females, and any contentions between them, then we're not winning any battles at all. In fact, we're barely fighting them.

Or we're only fighting them, but not progressing.

I congratulated Front privately on his new addition to the family and the image of him feeding the brat is a sweet one, and a moment in his day I'm sure he looks forward to...

Hi Kieran thanks for this, i think i agree with all of it!

I suppose as the parent of a young child (a boy), I am particularly sensitive to and dismayed by all the ways in which society still conspires to reinforce gender roles and stereotypes. I find it frustrating and think we need to be careful with our words in that respect.

Maybe your joke didn't come across as well in writing as it was intended!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Trust me brother, they rarely do...

 

[mrzz]

There are people that honestly think that black and white people would do better by not having children with each other.

Ilie Nastase may be one of them. Yet none of us think that it is appropriate for him to voice that opinion.

Before you say it, I'm not equating the two, and certainly not comparing Kieran to Nastase!!!!

I'm just pointing out the fallacy in the argument. People can make different choices, that is very true and indeed the point. But they have no business telling half of the population what they should and shouldn't do.

Look, i come here to talk about tennis not to argue about other things. But I will speak out when something crosses a line, because I would feel complicit if I did not. It is surely not inappropriate that I voice that opinion.

I hope it was clear from my original message that my intention was not to criticize Kieran personally, just to encourage him to consider the effect of a certain choice of words.

Don´t worry, it was surely clear from your original message that your intention was not to criticize Kieran personally. And, as I replied to Kieran, it is clear from your posts that you are civil and rational, so I would not imply otherwise.

The part were we disagree is when you put the argument in your first paragraph above in the same category as the argument in question (even if you were just illustrating your point, I know). Anyway, this is completely OT, and I would happily discuss it in a proper thread.

 

[El Dude]

I just watched some highlights of that great match and I agree with Front: Nadal was showing absolute NO sign of sore knees. Dude could move (not me, Rafa ).

Rafa fans, you can say it -- don't be scared: Rafa does sometimes lose when he's fully healthy. Yes, he does. Really. It is OK, he's still awesome and so are you.

Buddy, we could say that federer showed no signs of mono when he defeated Tipsarevic over the course of almost 5 hours in the sweltering heat, then returned two days later to dispatch Berdy in straights. We could say he showed no signs of a groin strain in Oz this year. It's a can of worms that's been tilted over so many times in this forum, it's had the effect of tilting the forum over. Front has changed his story so often on this one, fabricated stuff regarding Rafa's autobiography, and basically flip flopped more often than his most recent whopper regarding FUBAR, that I'm surprised you're encouraging him...

Sorry, missed this. I'm not encouraging him, just agreeing with his assessment that Rafa's knees were not a factor at Roland Garros in 2009, or at least not a significant one - based upon what I saw, at least. If they were a factor, his movement would have been limited, and it certainly didn't look that way. What I saw was Soderling playing the game of his life, and Rafa being a bit surprised and unable to counter. It happens to all great players, on occasion: a lesser player playes the match of his life and beats a superior player. See: Mischa Zverev defeating Andy Murray, or Denis Istomin defeating Novak Djokovic.

But here's the thing. Rafa fans tend to consciously or sub-consciously hold the view that Rafa is unbeatable, unless he's injured. Maybe the more moderate ones will admit he's vulnerable on indoor hards, maybe even grass. And the reason they think this way, is that it is partially true - or at least it was, at one point. Yes, I said it. But it was only true when Rafa was at his very best, say at the heights of 2010 and 2013. This has also been true of other great players at their very best, except in very specific contexts. Every great player has their kryptonite.

But yeah, at his best and when healthy, Rafa may have been the most unbeatable player I've ever seen - definitely on clay, and maybe for a very short time on hards. The problem, though, is that his fans often spread this out a bit too thinly.[/i]

 

[GameSetAndMath]

It is so disrespectful to say that Soderling won that match because of some injury to Rafa. People should realize that Soderling is no Darcis or Stakhovsky. He did not lose in the next match after causing such a huge upset. If you are not good, typically the player may win a huge match but will lose right away. Not only that Soderling did not lose the next match, he went all the way to the finals.

Further, as a way of showing that what happened in 2009 was not a fluke, he reached the finals again in 2010. Come on folks, give some credit to Soderling.

When he gets time to line up his shots on clay, he can hit a huge ball. The way to deal with Soderling is to take time away from him, which Rafa is not good at doing.

 

[El Dude]

Actually, watching the highlights reminded me a bit of Stan Wawrinka in Stanimal mode.

 

[Carol]

It is so disrespectful to say that Soderling won that match because of some injury to Rafa. People should realize that Soderling is no Darcis or Stakhovsky. He did not lose in the next match after causing such a huge upset. If you are not good, typically the player may win a huge match but will lose right away. Not only that Soderling did not lose the next match, he went all the way to the finals.

Further, as a way of showing that what happened in 2009 was not a fluke, he reached the finals again in 2010. Come on folks, give some credit to Soderling.

When he gets time to line up his shots on clay, he can hit a huge ball. The way to deal with Soderling is to take time away from him, which Rafa is not good at doing.

Nobody says that Soderling wasn't good, he was but not great. But the big difference was that in 2010 Nadal's knees were in much better conditions than 2009 (still not too good because in 2012 he had to stop to play for 7 months to take a more serious care with that injury ) and he did beat Soderling 6-4 6-2 6-4 in the RG final

 

[Fiero425]

It is so disrespectful to say that Soderling won that match because of some injury to Rafa. People should realize that Soderling is no Darcis or Stakhovsky. He did not lose in the next match after causing such a huge upset. If you are not good, typically the player may win a huge match but will lose right away. Not only that Soderling did not lose the next match, he went all the way to the finals.

Further, as a way of showing that what happened in 2009 was not a fluke, he reached the finals again in 2010. Come on folks, give some credit to Soderling.

When he gets time to line up his shots on clay, he can hit a huge ball. The way to deal with Soderling is to take time away from him, which Rafa is not good at doing.

I still have tape of Soderling backing up that win by making the YEC and was 1 of 3 players who defeated Rafa in their RR matches! Besides the so called injury, a big deal was made about the breakup of his parents! :nono :cover

 

[the AntiPusher]

It is so disrespectful to say that Soderling won that match because of some injury to Rafa. People should realize that Soderling is no Darcis or Stakhovsky. He did not lose in the next match after causing such a huge upset. If you are not good, typically the player may win a huge match but will lose right away. Not only that Soderling did not lose the next match, he went all the way to the finals.

Further, as a way of showing that what happened in 2009 was not a fluke, he reached the finals again in 2010. Come on folks, give some credit to Soderling.

When he gets time to line up his shots on clay, he can hit a huge ball. The way to deal with Soderling is to take time away from him, which Rafa is not good at doing.

I still have tape of Soderling backing up that win by making the YEC and was 1 of 3 players who defeated Rafa in their RR matches! Besides the so called injury, a big deal was made about the breakup of his parents! :nono :cover

Rafa had beaten the brakes off the Swede since just as he did prior to that match. Rafa has beaten the Swede at RG 2010 and 2011. So maybe there's a lot of validity in team Nadal's insistence that the Spaniard was injured while playing that match. Btw..why is it of relevance in 2017. What does the 2009 RG encounter with that player who has since been put out to pasture has to do with Rafa and the Monte Carlo championship of 2017.

 

[Fiero425]

It is so disrespectful to say that Soderling won that match because of some injury to Rafa. People should realize that Soderling is no Darcis or Stakhovsky. He did not lose in the next match after causing such a huge upset. If you are not good, typically the player may win a huge match but will lose right away. Not only that Soderling did not lose the next match, he went all the way to the finals.

Further, as a way of showing that what happened in 2009 was not a fluke, he reached the finals again in 2010. Come on folks, give some credit to Soderling.

When he gets time to line up his shots on clay, he can hit a huge ball. The way to deal with Soderling is to take time away from him, which Rafa is not good at doing.

I still have tape of Soderling backing up that win by making the YEC and was 1 of 3 players who defeated Rafa in their RR matches! Besides the so called injury, a big deal was made about the breakup of his parents! :nono :cover

Rafa had beaten the brakes off the Swede since just as he did prior to that match. Rafa has beaten the Swede at RG 2010 and 2011. So maybe there's a lot of validity in team Nadal's insistence that the Spaniard was injured. Btw, why is it of relevance in 2017? What does the 2009 RG encounter with that player who has since been put out to pasture has to do with Rafa and the Monte Carlo championship of 2017?

:nono OCO, it's obvious with Rafa owning the FO; for anyone to defeat him makes it a big deal! It's still a big deal after all these years because to this day, Rafa's only lost to 2 players on his home away from home; same for BORG who lost twice to Panatta, but took 6 overall titles! At Wimbledon it would have been Rosol, but other players followed up his improbable upset of Rafa at Wimbledon! With the ladies, a rivalry was imagined between Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova! The Russian won their initial meeting at Wimbledon where she was young and probably not taken seriously until it was too late! Serena lost the 1st set with just 1 game had! Soderling will live on just like Sharapova except Maria actually won something! uzzled :nono :angel: - - http://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2016/08/fan-page-novak-nole-djokovic.html - -

 

[El Dude]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

 

[Fiero425]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

:angel: :clap :snicker :laydownlaughing :cover

 

[the AntiPusher]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

:angel: :clap :snicker :laydownlaughing :cover

This is just utter madness.. this is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. All of this because Rafa finally won one damn tournament in a full calendar year. All of you are so damn petty.. I said it before is this tennis Frontier or Tennis Federer forever..:devil

 

[kskate2]

I cannot believe you guys are still talking about a match that occurred 8 years ago with a player who is retired now. :cover

 

[the AntiPusher]

I cannot believe you guys are still talking about a match that occurred 8 years ago with a player who is retired now. :cover

FINALLY:clap

 

[Carol]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

Nope, like I said before (read my comment) he has been beaten when he has been healthy too but in RG 2009 he had issues and that's why he didn't play well and right after had to be more than three moths out of the courts. Do you like that I repeat it again? and you are the one who usually tell me that I never give any credit to Federer? wow! you are going too far

 

[Carol]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

:angel: :clap :snicker :laydownlaughing :cover

This is just utter madness.. this is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. All of this because Rafa finally won one damn tournament in a full calendar year. All of you are so damn petty.. I said it before is this tennis Frontier or Tennis Federer forever..:devil

Do you think that I care what they are saying? nothing changes around here and if Rafa would do a good clay season (hope he will) then it will become worse and worse :roll eyes::coverlaydownlaughing oh but they are very fair....:snicker

 

[El Dude]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

Nope, like I said before (read my comment) he has been beaten when he has been healthy too but in RG 2009 he had issues and that's why he didn't play well and right after had to be more than three moths out of the courts. Do you like that I repeat it again? and you are the one who usually tell me that I never give any credit to Federer? wow! you are going too far

Wait, how am I going too far? What am I saying that is "too far?" I'm not bashing Rafa at all. Read what I actually write, Carol - I give him tons of praise, even saying that the Nadalite view that he only loses when injured is partially based on truth, because at his best that was kind of the case. I just disagree on 2009 RG, at least based upon the highlights that I saw. If his knees were bothering him, he showed absolutely no sign - no loss of movement.

 

[El Dude]

I cannot believe you guys are still talking about a match that occurred 8 years ago with a player who is retired now. :cover

Come on, Kelli, just get into it - it is part of the fun of talking tennis. Just think how boring this place will be when Fedal retire...what will the arguments be about, Kyrgios vs. Zverev? Boring!

 

[El Dude]

Carol, I'm honestly curious: Do you think Rafa has ever simply been out-played, at least in his prime years? Or is it always because of injury, family stuff, Mercury in retrograde, etc?

:angel: :clap :snicker :laydownlaughing :cover

This is just utter madness.. this is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. All of this because Rafa finally won one damn tournament in a full calendar year. All of you are so damn petty.. I said it before is this tennis Frontier or Tennis Federer forever..:devil

Don't play the victim card, AP. There are plenty of Nadal fans here. Sure, there are more Federer fans - but that's the case almost everywhere.

My question was an honest one, I just threw in a tinge of humor. And Fiero is more of a Novak guy, if I'm not mistaken.

I think it would also behoove you to realize that not all Federer fans are Front. Front seems to literally hate Rafa (please correct me if I'm wrong, Front). I certainly don't and have lauded him with praise.

 

[Kieran]

Fedfans love to promote this agenda: "Rafa fans never admit he's fairly beaten, they think he only ever loses because of injury." Then they add, "boo, hiss." I even remember after the Oz final in 2014 the venomous chorus insisting that an injury to Rafa early in the second set could have had no impact on the outcome, because Stan was up a break in that set. We had a Trojan horse thread telling us that Stan had found the way to beat Rafa, and why couldn't federer learn from this - based upon a 9 game opening set. :cover

At the same time, it rolls off the Fedfan tongue to tell us that Federer had mono in 2008, and this is why he played so poorly. "He only reached the semis in Oz, see."

"So?"

"Huh? So, he had mono, ya tool."

"Really? Because I saw him beat Tipsy in a match that lasted almost 5 hours, in blazing afternoon Melbourne sunshine, then two days later dispatch the Berdman in straights."

"Yeah, he plays short points, see? Never more than two shots, max. Woulda took nuffink outta 'im."

"Jeez."

Etc. 2013. 2016, dodgy knees at Wimbo, played two five set matches in 3 days. Saw no sign of dodgy knees there. At all. But we're told that's what happened. So, is it possible that a player has sore knees but it's not so noticeable? Is this possible? Even slightly? And that it has an effect, but that it's not gonna be explicitly seen? Is this impossible?

And Dude, I can point you to a million matches Rafa lost where injuries weren't a factor. And I can point you to an equal amount of matches where Federer lost, and both he and his fans claimed he was injured. I thought this thread was over, but I see you's couldn't resist one more silly propaganda strike against Rafa... :nono