Monica Seles - Steffi Graf

[sk310]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

I think it is pure conjecture that people have said they would have a hard time believing Graff would have gotten 22 Grand Slams titles only because of Monica Seles and that horrific stabbing incident.

I for one do not believe in asteriks full stop with any player period.I feel it is pure injustice on any player quite frankly.

Getting back to Graf,to me it is a case of 'pure hypothetical' how does anyone know,what would have really happened if Monica didnt get stabbed? again just a hypothetical statement? I dont deal in hypothetical statements period.To me this is just 'belittling one of the Greatest Female Players To Ever Take the Court..being Steffi Graf.

Yeah I'm with you on this. It is absolute conjecture. There's a million things that could have happened. Perhaps Steffi would have one 4 or 5 less against Monica but then played 2 or 3 years longer and still got the same number. At the same time Monica was really young during her initial success. It's really impossible to know if the same thing that happened to Hingis would not have happened to Seles. After making 6 GS finals in 1997 and 1998 did anyone really think Hingis' last slam would come in 1999? Probably not. So yeah Steffi deserves an asterisk free record.

 

[Federberg]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

^I'm the first person to object to asterisks. Unfortunately this is the one case in sports which specifically calls for this. A player directly benefits from her own crazed fans actions? Ugh! But I'm going to beg off here. I have to fight to many Fedal battles, I couldn't deal with a Seles/Graf one!

I never put a asterisk when Federer won the 2009 RG,thus giving him his career slam,when soo many people claimed if Rafa had not got beaten by Soderling,Roger would have never got his career slam by the way.

It was a unfortunate accident with the stabbing I agree,however I disagree that warrants a asterisk regarding Steffi Graf? again it is pure speculation,'shoulda couda woulda mentality'.I only deal in pure facts regarding records,stats etc,not in hypothetical situations full stop.

Totally different issue I'm afraid. Nadal got beaten plain and simple. People can make up what they want about his loss to Soderling, but he lost. Period. Roger beat who was put in front of him. Period.

No crazed Federer fan assaulted Rafa and prevented him from playing. He lost by himself :blush:

Unfortunately where Graf and Seles are concerned. A Graf fan. Let's be absolutely clear about that. Upset about Seles dominance took her out. For the express purpose of enabling Graf to achieve greatness. I congratulate him, he succeeded. It's my personal opinion, but I'll never be comfortable that Graf was able to benefit from the pure evil of a crazed fan.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

^ Well you are entitled to your opinion regarding that crazy fan,though lets put things into proper prospective here,we can all arguing to the cows come home
Fact is we Will Never Know what could have eventuated between Seles and Graf
Speculation has no place in History Period or Woulda Coulda Shoulda mentalities or theories again based on pure speculation.
Graf remains with 22 GS singles titles to her name,plus other records,are we also going to speculate on those records? I think Not.

I dont deal in Hypothetical,theories full stop,either do tennis historians by the way.
I personally feel it is undermining,belittling One Of The Greatest Female Players Ever with these types of outlandish theories.End of conversation from me on this subject.I have had the pleasure of watching Steffi Graf live by the way.It will be something I will forever cherish.

 

[Federberg]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

^You're absolutely right. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. What sort of world would we live in, if we allow injustices like that to stand without an asterisk? Next thing you know, some crazed Tyson Gay fan will cripple Usain Bolt. Does that mean that if Gay then goes on to win the next few major championships we should just say.. "speculation has no place in history"?

Not in my book... sorry!

 

[Kirijax]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

I'll agree that Graf doesn't deserve an asterisk next to her records. But looking at Seles' dominance when she was stabbed, you have to be smoking the Graf homer grass pretty hard to think Graf would have ended up with 22 Grand Slams titles. But that doesn't take away from what Graf did.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

I'll agree that Graf doesn't deserve an asterisk next to her records. But looking at Seles' dominance when she was stabbed, you have to be smoking the Graf homer grass pretty hard to think Graf would have ended up with 22 Grand Slams titles. But that doesn't take away from what Graf did.

Again you are speculating and 'woulda coulda shoulda theories

There is No Concrete Evidence otherwise that Graf would not have ended up with 22 Grand Slam titles?

I also dont look at Crystal Balls either....no do Tennis Historians.

 

[Kirijax]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

I'll agree that Graf doesn't deserve an asterisk next to her records. But looking at Seles' dominance when she was stabbed, you have to be smoking the Graf homer grass pretty hard to think Graf would have ended up with 22 Grand Slams titles. But that doesn't take away from what Graf did.

Again you are speculating and 'woulda coulda shoulda theories

There is No Concrete Evidence otherwise that Graf would not have ended up with 22 Grand Slam titles?

I also dont look at Crystal Balls either....no do Tennis Historians.

Yeah I know... That's all we can do. Just my own opinion. Graf wouldn'ta, couldn'ta, shouldn'ta won 22 titles without that. But who knows? We all saw how Chris Evert upped her fitness levels more than she ever would have had to if it hadn't been for Navratilova's dominance. Maybe the same would have happend with Graf. But I just have a really, really hard time thinking Graf would have ended with 22 and Seles would have ended with 9 titles unless I start some smoking some choice German weed.

And I look at crystal balls all the time. Those hypotheticals in tennis are so much fun!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

Breakdown Of The Rivalry between Graf and Seles.

Hard courts Graf 3-2

Clay Courts Equal 3-3

Grass Courts Graf 2-0

Rebound Ace Courts Seles 2-0

Grand Slam Matches Graf 6-4

Grand Slam Finals Equal 3-3

Year End Championships matches Graf 1-0

Year End Champioship Finals None

Fed Cup matches None

All finals Graf 6-4

All matches Graf 10-5.

 

[sk310]

As I said before I think it's silly to assume Seles would have remained as dominant. Just like I said above, had Hingis been stabbed in 1998 nobody would have assumed that even had she not been stabbed she would never win another slam after 1999. Thats the problem with young phenoms, their success doesn't come after the body has matured and they have to deal with their body changing day by day into adulthood.

 

[Federberg]

Lol! You're not talking about someone who had just won one or two slams. Truly hilarious. This is a player who was an established number 1. Graf had a definite edge on faster courts (Wimbledon and US), versus Seles on slower courts (Australia and RG). If time was on anyone's side it was with Seles. Anyway no point re-hashing arguments that have persisted for years. I doubt any minds are going to be changed.

 

[britbox]

^You're absolutely right. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. What sort of world would we live in, if we allow injustices like that to stand without an asterisk? Next thing you know, some crazed Tyson Gay fan will cripple Usain Bolt. Does that mean that if Gay then goes on to win the next few major championships we should just say.. "speculation has no place in history"?

Not in my book... sorry!

Graf had already won 11 majors and led Seles in the H2H (and also beat Seles more often than not when Seles was number one). Hardly a realistic comparison to Gay/Bolt and also hardly fair to penalize Graf for some nutjob's behaviour.

 

[britbox]

There's no doubt in any rational mind that Graf benefited from Seles' stabbing. Graf would have ended up with maybe 16 or 17 Slam titles if that tragedy had not happened. None of it is Graf's fault, but her count of 22 Grand Slams is hurt by that. Serena has past her in that regard. For 15 years, Serena has faced the best opposition out there and is still standing after they have all faded. Hingis couldn't keep up, Henin burned out early, Sharapova couldn't beat her, and they all finished with single digits in Grand Slam titles. And now Serena has past the two standard bearers of the sport and moved into her own spot. You just have to step back and admire what Serena has accomplished.

Ok, which 6 slams would you have given Seles? And are you also giving everyone else's slams in the 1990s to Seles also?

 

[Kirijax]

Seeing how Seles came back AFTER the stabbing to win the '96 Australian Open and then come close to upsetting Graf in the U.S. Open final in '95 even though she was 100 lbs overweight, I'd feel pretty safe to say she would have won a few more. Graf, Conchita Martinez and Arantxa Sanchez' trophy case would probably be a bit more bare if she had not had that tragedy happen to her.

 

[britbox]

Seeing how Seles came back AFTER the stabbing to win the '96 Australian Open and then come close to upsetting Graf in the U.S. Open final in '95 even though she was 100 lbs overweight, I'd feel pretty safe to say she would have won a few more. Graf, Conchita Martinez and Arantxa Sanchez' trophy case would probably be a bit more bare if she had not had that tragedy happen to her.

Well, here's the thing - she wasn't 100 lbs overweight after the stabbing. She put on most of the weight when her father (and coach) got cancer and died later on. This was AFTER her Australian Open title (post stabbing). She also would also likely have won 2 US Opens if Graf hadn't stood in her way at the finals. (She never lost a set in either tournament until facing Steffi). She never beat Steffi on a fast hard court at any point in her career. Her real career downspin as far as results went came when her father fell ill (he died). She put on a ton of weight and dropped down the rankings. Her father's death was a different event than the stabbing.

She may have won a "few more" possibly, but you took 6 away from Graf in your original post - so let's examine them. Which 6 would she have taken off Graf?

 

[Kirijax]

OK, I'll play. This is kinda fun. Pure speculation of course.

1993 French (Graf barely beat Fernandez)
1993 Wimbledon (Seles' serve was getting even better when she was stabbed and she learned her lesson from the '92 final. We would never have seen Novotna cry on the Duchess' shoulder)
1995 French (Might have been a close third set with Seles taking it)
1996 French (barely beat Sanchez)
1996 U.S. (Seles may have still lost the '95 U.S. But she could have taken the '96 title)
1999 French (Just my feeling, but I don't think Graf would have been able to have that mini-resurgence that year if Seles had been up there with Hingis and Davenport)

Again, pure speculation and sadly we'll never know. We were robbed of some great finals by one lunatic fan. For the record, I have always admired Graf and thought she was pure class on court. But she would not have finished with the 22 she did. More like 16.

 

[shawnbm]

This stuff is crazy; steffi earned her trophies and so did Monica. Graf had a better record in the big events even when Seles was becoming dominant. Who is to say with certainty her excellence over a couple years would continue unabated for four or more years? I don't buy it. She was great though--no doubt about it.

 

[britbox]

OK, I'll play. This is kinda fun. Pure speculation of course.

1993 French (Graf barely beat Fernandez)
1993 Wimbledon (Seles' serve was getting even better when she was stabbed and she learned her lesson from the '92 final. We would never have seen Novotna cry on the Duchess' shoulder)
1995 French (Might have been a close third set with Seles taking it)
1996 French (barely beat Sanchez)
1996 U.S. (Seles may have still lost the '95 U.S. But she could have taken the '96 title)
1999 French (Just my feeling, but I don't think Graf would have been able to have that mini-resurgence that year if Seles had been up there with Hingis and Davenport)

Again, pure speculation and sadly we'll never know. We were robbed of some great finals by one lunatic fan. For the record, I have always admired Graf and thought she was pure class on court. But she would not have finished with the 22 she did. More like 16.

1993 Wimbledon?

Are you seriously telling me that you'd award Seles a Wimbledon title from Steffi Graf?

Seles never won a major on grass and never beat Graf on grass. Graf won 7 Wimbledon titles. They met twice on Grass previously, Graf winning 6-1, 6-0 and 6-2, 6-1. The second match was in 92 when Seles was world number 1 - Graf took her apart.

More coming soon on the others, - but this one is the wildest fantasy of the lot!

 

[Kirijax]

OK, I'll play. This is kinda fun. Pure speculation of course.

1993 French (Graf barely beat Fernandez)
1993 Wimbledon (Seles' serve was getting even better when she was stabbed and she learned her lesson from the '92 final. We would never have seen Novotna cry on the Duchess' shoulder)
1995 French (Might have been a close third set with Seles taking it)
1996 French (barely beat Sanchez)
1996 U.S. (Seles may have still lost the '95 U.S. But she could have taken the '96 title)
1999 French (Just my feeling, but I don't think Graf would have been able to have that mini-resurgence that year if Seles had been up there with Hingis and Davenport)

Again, pure speculation and sadly we'll never know. We were robbed of some great finals by one lunatic fan. For the record, I have always admired Graf and thought she was pure class on court. But she would not have finished with the 22 she did. More like 16.

1993 Wimbledon?

Are you seriously telling me that you'd award Seles a Wimbledon title from Steffi Graf?

Seles never won a major on grass and never beat Graf on grass. Graf won 7 Wimbledon titles. They met twice on Grass previously, Graf winning 6-1, 6-0 and 6-2, 6-1. The second match was in 92 when Seles was world number 1 - Graf took her apart.

More coming soon on the others, - but this one is the wildest fantasy of the lot!

Speculation my friend. All just speculation. And I have been accused of having a wild imagination before.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Thank you Britbox,we are both on the same page where Steffi Graf is concerned.

 

[Billie]

Regarding Wimbledon, you probably saw Bartoli win a miles away during Serena's time, right? Unless you consider Marion better player than Seles?:snicker

This is still the saddest day in tennis for me and it should be for all tennis fans:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F_uotrIEZo[/video]


Seles still claims that players are too vulnerable on tennis court and anybody can cause serious damage if they planned it carefully.