Monica Seles - Steffi Graf

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

Williams has a patchy record, injuries and a lack of focus have damaged her a bit..her 15 majors date way back to the 20th century,

she never dominated like the others and that's reality..even her 4 in a row were draped over 2 years.

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monica was destroyed mentally.. she was a different person after that..the intensity and desire was killed even if she didn't die.

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what happened to the bloke that stabbed her. anyone know what he is up to now, he only got a suspended sentence :huh: at the time.

 

[El Dude]

The fact that Serena has won 15 Slams (and counting) despite a rather erratic career makes me wonder how many she could have won if she had been more consistent. Serena's span of Slam-winning years is quite remarkable - compare:

Court: 14 yrs (1960-1973)
Evert: 13 yrs (1974-1986)
Navratilova: 13 yrs (1978-1990)
Graf: 13 yrs (1987-1999)
S Williams: 14+ yrs (1999-2012+)

Of the five greats only Court had an equal span and Serena isn't done yet. I think she can at least extend it to 15 years by winning one this year - maybe next as well.

 

[Omair]

The fact that Serena has won 15 Slams (and counting) despite a rather erratic career makes me wonder how many she could have won if she had been more consistent. Serena's span of Slam-winning years is quite remarkable - compare:

Court: 14 yrs (1960-1973)
Evert: 13 yrs (1974-1986)
Navratilova: 13 yrs (1978-1990)
Graf: 13 yrs (1987-1999)
S Williams: 14+ yrs (1999-2012+)

Of the five greats only Court had an equal span and Serena isn't done yet. I think she can at least extend it to 15 years by winning one this year - maybe next as well.

Well, there always is IF. You can also wonder how many more slams Seles could have won had she not been stabbed, or Graf could have won had she not been injured. I am not taking anything off Serena or any such thing, but we can always have those IF's

 

[shawnbm]

Hey britbox--

I just read your piece on Graf-Seles, and think you persuasively put to rest some of "urban legends" about how it was. Another thing to note is that Steffi went through a very difficult personal time with her father in Germany during those years too. It likely affected her and I believe she said it did. (The same might be said for when Nadal's parents appeared headed for divorce). Graf was really something--really something--although at her peak Seles was scary with those two hands.

 

[britbox]

Hey britbox--

I just read your piece on Graf-Seles, and think you persuasively put to rest some of "urban legends" about how it was. Another thing to note is that Steffi went through a very difficult personal time with her father in Germany during those years too. It likely affected her and I believe she said it did. (The same might be said for when Nadal's parents appeared headed for divorce). Graf was really something--really something--although at her peak Seles was scary with those two hands.

Thanks shawn, appreciated. It was from a Graf perspective admittedly - but always thought people were way too casual with counting hypothetical slam titles, without looking at it in more detail.

 

[Eboe89]

First of all i just want to say, new member here. In fact, I just became a member to reply to this thread, although I have loved pro tennis for years(played in USTA, high school, and college myself). Admittedly, Monica Seles is my favorite player of all time. I am fairly young (25) and started following pro tennis in 2000 and Monica Seles was always my favorite for reasons I can't explain, she just was. First pro tennis match i ever remember watching was between Arantxa and Monica in the fourth round of wimbledon in 2000.

I realize that you are writing this article from a Steffi perspective and my biggest complaint is how you skewed the matchups. From the time Monica beat Steffi the first time to the last matchup before the stabbing, she held a 4-3 advantage. I think you have a good point that their individual matchup wasn't so one-sided for Seles except for in big matches at Grand slams. From their 1990 French Open encounter till their 1993 Aus Open encounter, Seles was 3-1 in majors. Kind of surprising how not-often they actually played eachother given the status their rivalry is given.

I'll admit that personally I dont really like Graf. Reading back on what happened, I don't think Graf dealt with the incident that well, but as you have pointed out, she was quite young too so I don't really hold that against her. I think she should've voted to reinstate Monica's ranking but she didn't. But, lots of other players didn't also (Sabatini was it right?).

However, perhaps unlike some other Seles fans I really don't like to do the hypothetical with her. Those grand slams she won in that short amount of time will always be hers. That speaks for itself. I feel bad for Steffi, cuz you know what? She played the 7 players that were most deserving each of those times that a Seles fan says she would've won those majors. Of course she had nothing to do with the stabbing and she only played the best tennis she knew how to in the years after it. Physically, Monica maybe could've been there, but mentally, she wasn't ready. That doesnt mean Steffi doesn't deserve her slams. But, tennis players are humans and things happen to everyone (I mean being stabbed during your job is a bit extreme, but still), so I'm not willing to discount Steffi.

Now, does it change my mind of her as the GOAT. Absolutely. I'm sorry, but lots of factors affect that. One of them might be your greatest rival being taken out of the game. So, no, I will probably never consider Steffi the GOAT. Right now for me thats Navratilova or Serena.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Again, I appreciate your appreciation of Graf! She was amazing and nothing can be taken from her.

But I also disagree with you that Seles' career would have followed the same course post-1996 that it did. We don't know if she would have had weight problems, or if that was a coping mechanism. We don't know how she would have responded to her father's and coach's deaths - if she would have been more resilient without the "psychic wound" that the stabbing inflicted. We can't underestimate the impact that psychology has on everything else in one's life.

That said, the same basic argument against David Nalbandian's "neo-greatness" applies: In the end, what ifs, shouldas and couldas don't go in the record books. An aspect of greatness is mentality, and just as Nalbandian--despite having the physical talent--didn't have the mentality of a great, so too did Monica Seles fall short of the inner circle of women's greats. If you take her career up to the point of the stabbing and project it in any way other than the most pessimistic, she would have been an all-time great - one of a Big Five. But in the end that didn't happen and the history books show a clear Big Four (unless Serena can keep it up for another two or three years).

p.s. On a side note, it would be interesting to compare the careers of the Big Four to the careers of Seles, Hingis and Serena, all of whom faced significant setbacks that kept them from fully actualizing their talent. All three had GOAT talent, but all three faced different kinds of set-backs that kept them shy of the very inner circle to varying degrees.

p.p.s. And just as the holy grail of impossible multi-generational matchups on the men's side would have been peak Sampras vs. peak Federer (or perhaps peak Borg vs. peak Nadal), I would have loved to see peak Graf vs. peak Serena. Just imagine that. The consensus seems to be that, at her very best, Serena was the greatest women's player of all time, but a peak Graf might have found a way to win - she seemed to have a more diverse game, if I remember correctly.

Great write up BB.. I am with GSM, there isnt any certainity that Sele's career would have taken the same course it did after 1996.. Graf had no answers for Seles prior to the stabbing. Seles was really a shell of herself afterwards of the stabbing. Just a major tragedy and poor Seles's will be forever wonder, What could have been had she not been stabbed by an insane maniac fan.. :nono

 

[Kieran]

Welcome to the forum, Eboe89 - I agree with you, that's a great post. Hope to read further thoughts from you in future...

 

[kskate2]

Welcome Eboe89. So glad you found us. Please don't hesitate to let us know if you have a question.

Happy Posting!

 

[britbox]

Graf had no answers for Seles prior to the stabbing. Seles was really a shell of herself afterwards of the stabbing. Just a major tragedy and poor Seles's will be forever wonder, What could have been had she not been stabbed by an insane maniac fan.. :nono

Graf had no answers for Seles before the stabbing? Really?

Seriously mate, I sigh when I read stuff like that and it's the same people who deliver it over and over seemingly oblivious to the facts.

Graf led the Head to Head before the stabbing (6-4) and led Seles (3-1) in 91/92 (the two years Seles ended the year at Number 1) and also had won 3 of the last 5 before the stabbing.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

^ Nice to see you posting Britbox...we are on the same page where Graf is concerned by the way,thank you for posting those stats,it saved me from posting them

 

[Eboe89]

^ Nice to see you posting Britbox...we are on the same page where Graf is concerned by the way,thank you for posting those stats,it saved me from posting them

His stats were very Steffi biased. Listen, I'm fine with you posting from a Steffi view, but why not include that Monica won both of their matches in 1990?? That seems to be deliberately to be seeking to deceive. Like I said in my previous post, I wouldn't take a SINGLE grand slam from Steffi Graf because she always beat the 7 players in front of her for each grand slam she won. But you seem to seek to skew statistics in some way that favor Steffi. Which is fine, shes your fave, but I'm gonna call you on it. Monica was dominating her in matches that mattered before she got stabbed. You know that. Everyone knows that.

 

[britbox]

^ Nice to see you posting Britbox...we are on the same page where Graf is concerned by the way,thank you for posting those stats,it saved me from posting them

His stats were very Steffi biased. Listen, I'm fine with you posting from a Steffi view, but why not include that Monica won both of their matches in 1990?? That seems to be deliberately to be seeking to deceive. Like I said in my previous post, I wouldn't take a SINGLE grand slam from Steffi Graf because she always beat the 7 players in front of her for each grand slam she won. But you seem to seek to skew statistics in some way that favor Steffi. Which is fine, shes your fave, but I'm gonna call you on it. Monica was dominating her in matches that mattered before she got stabbed. You know that. Everyone knows that.

The statistics are these (in full)

Before stabbing: Graf 6 Seles 4
Career: Graf 10 Seles 5
Grand Slam Matches before stabbing: Graf 3 Seles 3
Grand Slam Matches Career: Graf 6 Seles 4

They are black and white overall stats without any cherry picking.

Now you might refer to a 10-8 win in the final set at Paris on arguably Seles' best surface and arguably Graf's worst a dominant victory... it sure wasn't dominant if you care to watch it.

A real example of a dominant performance would be Graf's 6-2 6-1 shellacking of Monica at Wimbledon in 1992.

 

[Kieran]

Britbox, would you agree with me that the stabbing was a definitive line in the sand on Seles career?

She won 8 majors before it and a single slam after. The stabbing changed everything, right?

 

[britbox]

Britbox, would you agree with me that the stabbing was a definitive line in the sand on Seles career?

She won 8 majors before it and a single slam after. The stabbing changed everything, right?

It was obviously a definitive moment, only a fool would suggest otherwise.

Line in the sand would indicate Seles was a shell of herself after the stabbing. This I disagree with... but my main point was to refute the casual statement that Seles dominated Steffi Graf. She never dominated Steffi Graf before or after the stabbing. She NEVER had a winning head to head or ever won more than 2 matches in a row. To suggest Graf was somehow dominated by Seles is an oft-repeated casual statement that has no basis in reality and basically an urban myth. In fact, in the greater scheme of things, they really didn't meet that often. 15 times spanning an entire decade.

On your specific point...

Seles would actually have won 3 majors in the space of a just over a year after the stabbing if she hadn't faced Graf in the finals at New York. She never dropped a single set in either the 95 or 96 US Open until meeting Graf in the final. 3 majors? Sounds like business as usual.

The big elephant in the room which rarely gets mentioned was Seles weight gain and distress at the death of her father and coach. Seles acknowledged the massive impact this had on her. If you look at her career trajectory, it actually had a bigger impact than the stabbing.

The romantics transplant a 19 year old healthy Seles over the next decade assuming she never gets injured, never suffers form dips, never deals with the loss of her father and coach, never has match up issues with other up and coming players. She never ages, never dips, never has off-court issues... It's a nice thought but unrealistic.

I've always been of the opinion that Seles' career trajectory wouldn't change a lot from 1996 onwards with or without the stabbing. If any majors are deemed to "have got away" then the sensible choice would be to look at those contested in 93 and 94.

 

[Kieran]

I think you're being Steffi-centred, buddy. If she hadn't been stabbed, she'd have been a totally different person when her father died - which would undoubtedly have affected her, I'm not saying it wouldn't, but she wouldn't have been so fragile - and the weight gain I put down to the stabbing.

It destroyed her confidence.

We'll never know for sure what would have happened, but we do know for sure that she was gaining rapidly on Steffi in the slam count - and then she wasn't. The clear reason for this is that she was stabbed...

EDIT: I agree with you about the false narratives and the dismissive way that conclusions are drawn. As you say, it's disrespectful to Steffi, who's earned her spurs the hard way, too...

 

[britbox]

^You might be right mate. It's possible she may never lost a single match if she hadn't been stabbed or been elected president of the United States.

 

[Billie]

^You might be right mate. It's possible she may never lost a single match if she hadn't been stabbed or been elected president of the United States.

She can't be elected president of the United States as she wasn't born there even if she socializes with the politicians.:snigger

Good to see you BB, I'll add fuel to the fire later on to drag you out again, if necessary. We are OK for now.:hug

 

[britbox]

Thanks for the welcome fashionista and billie - I've been catching up with some long overdue stuff!

This particular subject has always been a bit of a red rag to a bull mainly because of some urban myths that get perpetually recycled... the person who PM'ed knew which buttons to press ha ha.

I'm very sympathetic to the ordeal Seles went through but don't believe that should be mixed up with the awarding of hypothetical slams at somebody else's expense - particularly a legend who was never anybody's stooge.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

^ We are on the same page regarding Graf.I to am sympathetic to the ordeal Monica went through,I am not a person who deals in 'what ifs' or woulda coulda scenario's.