Monica Seles - Steffi Graf

[Eboe89]

^You might be right mate. It's possible she may never lost a single match if she hadn't been stabbed or been elected president of the United States.

How sensitive of ya mate.

 

[britbox]

Always been sensitive to the realities of the stabbing - less so talking "What if's" and doing a land grab of slams from a (legendary) player who won the majors on court. There's a difference.

 

[Eboe89]

Always been sensitive to the realities of the stabbing - less so talking "What if's" and doing a land grab of slams from a (legendary) player who won the majors on court. There's a difference.

If you look at my posts you'd see I'm more on your side with Steffi. I don't think anyone should take titles away from her. She earned each and every title. But you seem to to try to belittle Seles fans who have legitimate "what ifs." I am a Seles fan. I have a lot of "what ifs." but I'd never blame them on Steffi. Steffi earned each of the titles she won but you'd be silly to think she'd have earned them that easily with Monica competing.....

 

[faradubii]

A "what if" is never legitimate or not legitimate, legitimacy relates to facts not to speculations.

 

[Eboe89]

^ Nice to see you posting Britbox...we are on the same page where Graf is concerned by the way,thank you for posting those stats,it saved me from posting them

You seem to be very serious about this. Why?


His stats were very Steffi biased. Listen, I'm fine with you posting from a Steffi view, but why not include that Monica won both of their matches in 1990?? That seems to be deliberately to be seeking to deceive. Like I said in my previous post, I wouldn't take a SINGLE grand slam from Steffi Graf because she always beat the 7 players in front of her for each grand slam she won. But you seem to seek to skew statistics in some way that favor Steffi. Which is fine, shes your fave, but I'm gonna call you on it. Monica was dominating her in matches that mattered before she got stabbed. You know that. Everyone knows that.

The statistics are these (in full)

Before stabbing: Graf 6 Seles 4
Career: Graf 10 Seles 5
Grand Slam Matches before stabbing: Graf 3 Seles 3
Grand Slam Matches Career: Graf 6 Seles 4

They are black and white overall stats without any cherry picking.

Now you might refer to a 10-8 win in the final set at Paris on arguably Seles' best surface and arguably Graf's worst a dominant victory... it sure wasn't dominant if you care to watch it.

A real example of a dominant performance would be Graf's 6-2 6-1 shellacking of Monica at Wimbledon in 1992.

 

[Eboe89]

Always been sensitive to the realities of the stabbing - less so talking "What if's" and doing a land grab of slams from a (legendary) player who won the majors on court. There's a difference.

Okay. You will will always think Steffi is the greatest.
bye.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Last time I checked Graff had won 22 Grand Slam titles.As tennis fans in general I cannot see the sense of trying to 'belittle' one of the Greatest Female Tennis Players ever to take the court.

 

[Fiero425]

Last time I checked Graff had won 22 Grand Slam titles.As tennis fans in general I cannot see the sense of trying to 'belittle' one of the Greatest Female Tennis Players ever to take the court.

..with a huge * behind her name! It's unfortunate we'll never really know! The cold hard numbers will supplant any reasoning behind "what ifs" down the line, but living during her era gives us a little more insight that historians in the distant future won't have for obvious reasons! All you have to do really is look at how "Big Bill" Tilden is underrated and dismissed for something totally unrelated to tennis! That proves the "thought-police" can shape history!

 

[britbox]

Always been sensitive to the realities of the stabbing - less so talking "What if's" and doing a land grab of slams from a (legendary) player who won the majors on court. There's a difference.

Okay. You will will always think Steffi is the greatest.
bye.

Nope. If Serena passes her then I'd likely go with her. Navratilova has a decent argument also.

Actually, If you want to factor everything including doubles into the equation then I'd go with Nav as the greatest player. But for me, singles is the benchmark as it's a level playing field and currently Steffi Graf would be my choice as the greatest to date.

No issues with anybody making a case for Nav, Court or Evert. These four players are in a group ahead of the rest IMO. Serena is moving into that group at the moment. Bye.

 

[special700]

Always been sensitive to the realities of the stabbing - less so talking "What if's" and doing a land grab of slams from a (legendary) player who won the majors on court. There's a difference.

Okay. You will will always think Steffi is the greatest.
bye.

Nope. If Serena passes her then I'd likely go with her. Navratilova has a decent argument also.

Actually, If you want to factor everything including doubles into the equation then I'd go with Nav as the greatest player. But for me, singles is the benchmark as it's a level playing field and currently Steffi Graf would be my choice as the greatest to date.

No issues with anybody making a case for Nav, Court or Evert. These four players are in a group ahead of the rest IMO. Serena is moving into that group at the moment. Bye.

Serena is already in that group. What the heck does this woman have to do to be given her right accolades. Had she been anyone else she would have already be in that group and it would not be "moving into that group at the moment" it would be she's already in that group.

 

[britbox]

Last time I checked Graff had won 22 Grand Slam titles.As tennis fans in general I cannot see the sense of trying to 'belittle' one of the Greatest Female Tennis Players ever to take the court.

..with a huge * behind her name! It's unfortunate we'll never really know! The cold hard numbers will supplant any reasoning behind "what ifs" down the line, but living during her era gives us a little more insight that historians in the distant future won't have for obvious reasons! All you have to do really is look at how "Big Bill" Tilden is underrated and dismissed for something totally unrelated to tennis! That proves the "thought-police" can shape history!

Graf was one of the greatest players of all time even before the stabbing, albeit not yet in the top echelon.

Here's the thing with an asterix - you're not only putting one on Graf - you're putting one on every player for the next decade including your own favourite Martina Hingis. Let's not get greedy buddy - let's share the asterix around a bit. I'm sure Sanchez, Hingis, Davenport and every other player winning titles during the 90s would be overjoyed.

The problem with living in a parallel universe is that you can start applying asterix all around. What if the Graf family wasn't at the heart of a blackmail plot? What if the tax evasion controversies hadn't surrounded the family, what if Graf never had crippling injuries that dogged her career?

Hey man, would it be beyond the realms of possibility that if Tracey Austin hadn't been crippled by injury she may have even snatched one or two of Martina's titles?

The best Slams are those won on tennis courts. You don't find too many Historians in the fiction section of the library - they concentrate on the events as they happened. You know, ones that actually took place.

Sure, we know the context... but when I read stuff like "Graf had no answer for Seles", "Seles dominated Graf" etc... It's clear, the people commenting either weren't around at all or didn't follow tennis very closely at the time.

Neither statements are true because Graf led the H2H (always) and beat Seles more often than not even when Seles was #1.

Graf's biggest dramas during her relative two year slump were against Sabatini (She went 4-8). Outside of that period she was 25-3 against Gabby.

Still, the urban myth perpetuates because it's a romantic story that people keep repeating over and over. Nice slant, but it belongs firmly in the fiction section.

 

[Fiero425]

Okay. You will will always think Steffi is the greatest.
bye.

Nope. If Serena passes her then I'd likely go with her. Navratilova has a decent argument also.

Actually, If you want to factor everything including doubles into the equation then I'd go with Nav as the greatest player. But for me, singles is the benchmark as it's a level playing field and currently Steffi Graf would be my choice as the greatest to date.

No issues with anybody making a case for Nav, Court or Evert. These four players are in a group ahead of the rest IMO. Serena is moving into that group at the moment. Bye.

Serena is already in that group. What the heck does this woman have to do to be given her right accolades. Had she been anyone else she would have already be in that group and it would not be "moving into that group at the moment" it would be she's already in that group.

Serena hurts her legacy with the "part time" act; coming and going, embarrassing herself and the sport with a couple "soap opera" moments at the USO; maybe getting a quiet sanction and barred from playing the event! How many defending champions disappear like this woman? I'm offended by her lack of awareness of what she was doing as "The #1 player" off and on for a decade! :nono :cover :-/ No one underachieved more on the ladies' side of tennis history; maybe Venus! :ras:

 

[britbox]

Okay. You will will always think Steffi is the greatest.
bye.

Nope. If Serena passes her then I'd likely go with her. Navratilova has a decent argument also.

Actually, If you want to factor everything including doubles into the equation then I'd go with Nav as the greatest player. But for me, singles is the benchmark as it's a level playing field and currently Steffi Graf would be my choice as the greatest to date.

No issues with anybody making a case for Nav, Court or Evert. These four players are in a group ahead of the rest IMO. Serena is moving into that group at the moment. Bye.

Serena is already in that group. What the heck does this woman have to do to be given her right accolades. Had she been anyone else she would have already be in that group and it would not be "moving into that group at the moment" it would be she's already in that group.

"Had she been anyone else?"... Yeah, if she'd won more tournaments or spent more weeks at #1 to add to her impressive slam tally then I'd agree. The other four players have a bit of daylight on those fronts if you look beyond the majors.

As it stands, her career is not over, she's got more to come and is possibly "the best" player I've ever seen. Note the subtle difference between "best" and "greatest".

I have little doubt she'll be firmly in that group by the time her career's over and maybe even top it.

 

[Fiero425]

Last time I checked Graff had won 22 Grand Slam titles.As tennis fans in general I cannot see the sense of trying to 'belittle' one of the Greatest Female Tennis Players ever to take the court.

..with a huge * behind her name! It's unfortunate we'll never really know! The cold hard numbers will supplant any reasoning behind "what ifs" down the line, but living during her era gives us a little more insight that historians in the distant future won't have for obvious reasons! All you have to do really is look at how "Big Bill" Tilden is underrated and dismissed for something totally unrelated to tennis! That proves the "thought-police" can shape history!

Graf was one of the greatest players of all time even before the stabbing, albeit not yet in the top echelon.

Here's the thing with an asterix - you're not only putting one on Graf - you're putting one on every player for the next decade including your own favourite Martina Hingis. Let's not get greedy buddy - let's share the asterix around a bit. I'm sure Sanchez, Hingis, Davenport and every other player winning titles during the 90s would be overjoyed.
...

Sure, we know the context... but when I read stuff like "Graf had no answer for Seles", "Seles

Graf's biggest dramas during her relative two year slump were against Sabatini (She went 4-8). Outside of that period she was 25-3 against Gabby.

Still, the urban myth perpetuates because it's a romantic story that people keep repeating over and over. Nice slant, but it belongs firmly in the fiction section.

That was a great period to watch tennis; Sabatini actually testing Graf and frustrating her in quite a few matches around '91 & '92! It all remained a nonsequitur since Graf was able to overcome Gaby when it mattered in their lone Wimbledon final! I still enjoy watching those matches on clay and cement to this day!

 

[Federberg]

The GOAT conversation is a fruitless one for the most part. But the era differences are just too great. Navratilova and Evert were just the best out there. Serena is the best out there but, the racquets have changed. Steffi "only" won 107 titles which shows that the amount of tournaments around to play and the amount of tournaments needed to play to make a decent living or better was already going down. If Serena gets anywhere near 80 titles, I'll consider that right up there with those girls. Yes, 167 and 157 is just gargantuan. But the racquets being the way they were, the girls who were not as good just didn't have as much leverage. Serena can be upset by someone playing extremely strong because they have a racquet that can hit it past her. And she does the same thing obviously. She and Venus made it that way more than ever before.

I love Steffi and I don't fault her for very little doubles play at all. But.... for me, and I'll always catch at least some flack for this, but there is an asterisk over her career. And it's name is Monica Seles. I have a hard time believing Steffi gets to 22 if Seles doesn't get stabbed. Seles did and so Steffi was definitely the best around still after that and deserved her 4 to 6 titles she won after the stabbing. She won 11 slams, after Seles' stabbing. She may have made it to 18. But she wouldn't have gotten to 22. I don't know. There's nothing I can do about it and I don't want to take away from her because she was amazing and dominant. But it has always bothered me and it always will. Seles had a new game and that rivalry deserved a lot more. Hate it. I mean, the Seles stabbing has implications on the late 90s overall. I don't think Hingis has near the success she had if Seles is never stabbed. Serena and Venus' early years could have been somewhat different. And Seles herself would probably be part of the GOAT talk in my opinion.

Anyways, all these ladies are just amazing. I'm glad Serena has passed Martina and Chrissy because that's the only way she can compete with them up here. She's got Chrissy in the doubles category. So that helps her there. But against Martina, who was only stopped at 18 because of Chrissy and then Steffi's dominant game. And well, the same goes for Chrissy. If Martina doesn't exist she'd have beaten Court's record by 5 or 10. They were just so much better than everyone else. So many grand slam finals and semis. It's insane. Serena had many foes. All of whom she was and is better than but who can beat her a bit more because they've got similar power and a strong racquet. Just so much more depth these days. Even though it would be wrong to say that Chrissy and Martina didn't have to deal with Goolagong Cawley and Casals and Shriver and Austin and Wade and Barker and Mandlikova and more.

Tough discussion. Which is why it's probably better to just say they're all amazing and they all feel great to be mentioned in the same breath as one another. They're more than happy to recognize each others achievements.

Totally agree with you. This is just about the only case in sports where I would subscribe to applying an asterisk. When a player is taken out by a nut job to clear the way for another player, who then benefits. Nope... not having it. Yes she was an awesome player. But history.. or rather crazed lunatics helped her on her way.

My first thought always used to be for Chrissy and Martina. But what Serena is doing, surpasses everything in my view. Although I do agree with Fiero... there's a serious deficit when it comes to total number of tournaments won which I think is important. If anything it's even more important for the womens game than the mens. As it's the same format all the way through..

 

[Federberg]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

The GOAT conversation is a fruitless one for the most part. But the era differences are just too great. Navratilova and Evert were just the best out there. Serena is the best out there but, the racquets have changed. Steffi "only" won 107 titles which shows that the amount of tournaments around to play and the amount of tournaments needed to play to make a decent living or better was already going down. If Serena gets anywhere near 80 titles, I'll consider that right up there with those girls. Yes, 167 and 157 is just gargantuan. But the racquets being the way they were, the girls who were not as good just didn't have as much leverage. Serena can be upset by someone playing extremely strong because they have a racquet that can hit it past her. And she does the same thing obviously. She and Venus made it that way more than ever before.

I love Steffi and I don't fault her for very little doubles play at all. But.... for me, and I'll always catch at least some flack for this, but there is an asterisk over her career. And it's name is Monica Seles. I have a hard time believing Steffi gets to 22 if Seles doesn't get stabbed. Seles did and so Steffi was definitely the best around still after that and deserved her 4 to 6 titles she won after the stabbing. She won 11 slams, after Seles' stabbing. She may have made it to 18. But she wouldn't have gotten to 22. I don't know. There's nothing I can do about it and I don't want to take away from her because she was amazing and dominant. But it has always bothered me and it always will. Seles had a new game and that rivalry deserved a lot more. Hate it. I mean, the Seles stabbing has implications on the late 90s overall. I don't think Hingis has near the success she had if Seles is never stabbed. Serena and Venus' early years could have been somewhat different. And Seles herself would probably be part of the GOAT talk in my opinion.

Anyways, all these ladies are just amazing. I'm glad Serena has passed Martina and Chrissy because that's the only way she can compete with them up here. She's got Chrissy in the doubles category. So that helps her there. But against Martina, who was only stopped at 18 because of Chrissy and then Steffi's dominant game. And well, the same goes for Chrissy. If Martina doesn't exist she'd have beaten Court's record by 5 or 10. They were just so much better than everyone else. So many grand slam finals and semis. It's insane. Serena had many foes. All of whom she was and is better than but who can beat her a bit more because they've got similar power and a strong racquet. Just so much more depth these days. Even though it would be wrong to say that Chrissy and Martina didn't have to deal with Goolagong Cawley and Casals and Shriver and Austin and Wade and Barker and Mandlikova and more.

Tough discussion. Which is why it's probably better to just say they're all amazing and they all feel great to be mentioned in the same breath as one another. They're more than happy to recognize each others achievements.

Yeah Im with you on all of this. The eras of the GOAT candidates differ so much that its impossible not to have at least 3 or 4 players named as GOATS. I think the physicality of todays game is so different that playing to the finals of ALL the tournaments Martina and Chrissy played would not be possible today. It would take crazy luck and skill not to get injured.

I had a friend (German by the way) tell me today that Steffi had mud harder opponents and that Serena has had no competition. I think thats kind of silly because after Monica who did Steffi really have? Martina won her last slam in 1990. So lets say for the peak years of Graf she really only had Conchita, Arantxa, Monica, and Martina Hingis at the end. Serena has at least equaled that in being in the same era is Plus+ winners Justine, Kim C, Maria, and now Vika could likely go above 4-5. I just think its impossible to compare careers when you look at them as a whole.

Surely a joke. Serena has faced more depth than what was left after the Seles stabbing. Don't forget to add Pierce, Davenport and Capriati to Serena's list of opposition. Superior to the likes of ASV, Martinez and Sabbatini in my view..

 

[Kirijax]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

There's no doubt in any rational mind that Graf benefited from Seles' stabbing. Graf would have ended up with maybe 16 or 17 Slam titles if that tragedy had not happened. None of it is Graf's fault, but her count of 22 Grand Slams is hurt by that. Serena has past her in that regard. For 15 years, Serena has faced the best opposition out there and is still standing after they have all faded. Hingis couldn't keep up, Henin burned out early, Sharapova couldn't beat her, and they all finished with single digits in Grand Slam titles. And now Serena has past the two standard bearers of the sport and moved into her own spot. You just have to step back and admire what Serena has accomplished.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

I think it is pure conjecture that people have said they would have a hard time believing Graff would have gotten 22 Grand Slams titles only because of Monica Seles and that horrific stabbing incident.

I for one do not believe in asteriks full stop with any player period.I feel it is pure injustice on any player quite frankly.

Getting back to Graf,to me it is a case of 'pure hypothetical' how does anyone know,what would have really happened if Monica didnt get stabbed? again just a hypothetical statement? I dont deal in hypothetical statements period.To me this is just 'belittling one of the Greatest Female Players To Ever Take the Court..being Steffi Graf.

 

[Federberg]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

^I'm the first person to object to asterisks. Unfortunately this is the one case in sports which specifically calls for this. A player directly benefits from her own crazed fans actions? Ugh! But I'm going to beg off here. I have to fight to many Fedal battles, I couldn't deal with a Seles/Graf one!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

RE: 2015 Australian Open Final: S. Williams vs. Sharapova

^I'm the first person to object to asterisks. Unfortunately this is the one case in sports which specifically calls for this. A player directly benefits from her own crazed fans actions? Ugh! But I'm going to beg off here. I have to fight to many Fedal battles, I couldn't deal with a Seles/Graf one!

I never put a asterisk when Federer won the 2009 RG,thus giving him his career slam,when soo many people claimed if Rafa had not got beaten by Soderling,Roger would have never got his career slam by the way.

It was a unfortunate accident with the stabbing I agree,however I disagree that warrants a asterisk regarding Steffi Graf? again it is pure speculation,'shoulda couda woulda mentality'.I only deal in pure facts regarding records,stats etc,not in hypothetical situations full stop.