Monica Seles - Steffi Graf

[britbox]

Regarding Wimbledon, you probably saw Bartoli win a miles away during Serena's time, right? Unless you consider Marion better player than Seles?:snicker

This is still the saddest day in tennis for me and it should be for all tennis fans:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F_uotrIEZo[/video]


Seles still claims that players are too vulnerable on tennis court and anybody can cause serious damage if they planned it carefully.

No, I can't imagine ever placing an asterix on any of Serena Williams titles and saying "Marion Bartoli would have won that tournament had she been in it".

 

[Kirijax]

We all know there is no answer to this debate. We'll just have to agree to disagree! A lot of fans agree that Graf would already be passed by Serena in Grand Slam titles if that stabbing had never taken place. No asterisk, but most people realize that it's there.

 

[Billie]

You misunderstood me BB. If Marion (who has the same playing style as Monica) was able to win Wimbledon during Serena's reign, why are you so certain that Monica couldn't get lucky and win one year when Graff was not in the final?uzzled

 

[britbox]

You misunderstood me BB. If Marion (who has the same playing style as Monica) was able to win Wimbledon during Serena's reign, why are you so certain that Monica couldn't get lucky and win one year when Graff was not in the final?uzzled

No, what Kirjax was saying was that he would have taken away Steffi Graf's 1993 Wimbledon title and given it to Monica Seles based on the following evidence:

a) Monica Seles never beat Steffi Graf once in her career on grass
b) Monica Seles had been roundly thrashed by Graf both times they met on grass, winning a combined four games over two matches.
c) Monica Seles never enjoyed a winning H2H against Graf
d) Graf even enjoyed a winning H2H even if you only base it only on the period when Seles was #1.
e) Graf's slice killed Seles on grass.
f) Monica Seles grass court prowess (1 minor Eastbourne title during her career) should be considered heavily when taking away a Wimbledon title from Graf, a seven time major winner on grass.

Very compelling evidence as you can see. I'm also thinking Kirjax should make a case for taking one of Nadal's Roland Garros titles away in favour of Andy Roddick.

 

[Kirijax]

You misunderstood me BB. If Marion (who has the same playing style as Monica) was able to win Wimbledon during Serena's reign, why are you so certain that Monica couldn't get lucky and win one year when Graff was not in the final?uzzled

No, what Kirjax was saying was that he would have taken away Steffi Graf's 1993 Wimbledon title and given it to Monica Seles based on the following evidence:

a) Monica Seles never beat Steffi Graf once in her career on grass
b) Monica Seles had been roundly thrashed by Graf both times they met on grass, winning a combined four games over two matches.
c) Monica Seles never enjoyed a winning H2H against Graf
d) Graf even enjoyed a winning H2H even if you only base it only on the period when Seles was #1.
e) Graf's slice killed Seles on grass.
f) Monica Seles grass court prowess (1 minor Eastbourne title during her career) should be considered heavily when taking away a Wimbledon title from Graf, a seven time major winner on grass.

Very compelling evidence as you can see. I'm also thinking Kirjax should make a case for taking one of Nadal's Roland Garros titles away in favour of Andy Roddick.

You have a better imagination than me Britbox! :clap

 

[Billie]

I know BB, people were saying that Nole was a 1 slam wonder, that he sucked on grass...bla bla bla bla....couldn't beat Federer nor Nadal in important matches. You of all people know how much grief I had to suffer for believing in Nole as I knew he was capable of great things.

I am not claiming that I am sure that Monica would beat Graff, but she could have won 1 Wimbledon title against somebody else if her progression hadn't been stopped in such a brutal way. Monica mentally was a lot like Nole, this comes from the same coach when they were kids. After the stabbing, she was a different person...period. Everything changed for her, she grew up suddenly and rudely. It doesn't matter to me how many titles Graff won and I don't want to speculate on anything.

But 1 thing I am sure about, by the end of her career Monica would have done much better than she actually did. Sorry that opinion I am not changing.

 

[Billie]

You misunderstood me BB. If Marion (who has the same playing style as Monica) was able to win Wimbledon during Serena's reign, why are you so certain that Monica couldn't get lucky and win one year when Graff was not in the final?uzzled

No, what Kirjax was saying was that he would have taken away Steffi Graf's 1993 Wimbledon title and given it to Monica Seles based on the following evidence:

a) Monica Seles never beat Steffi Graf once in her career on grass
b) Monica Seles had been roundly thrashed by Graf both times they met on grass, winning a combined four games over two matches.
c) Monica Seles never enjoyed a winning H2H against Graf
d) Graf even enjoyed a winning H2H even if you only base it only on the period when Seles was #1.
e) Graf's slice killed Seles on grass.
f) Monica Seles grass court prowess (1 minor Eastbourne title during her career) should be considered heavily when taking away a Wimbledon title from Graf, a seven time major winner on grass.

Very compelling evidence as you can see. I'm also thinking Kirjax should make a case for taking one of Nadal's Roland Garros titles away in favour of Andy Roddick.

You have a better imagination than me Britbox! :clap

I guess BB doesn't believe that players can become better once they are over 20 years of age.:snicker

 

[britbox]

I know BB, people were saying that Nole was a 1 slam wonder, that he sucked on grass...bla bla bla bla....couldn't beat Federer nor Nadal in important matches. You of all people know how much grief I had to suffer for believing in Nole as I knew he was capable of great things.

I am not claiming that I am sure that Monica would beat Graff, but she could have won 1 Wimbledon title against somebody else if her progression hadn't been stopped in such a brutal way. Monica mentally was a lot like Nole, this comes from the same coach when they were kids. After the stabbing, she was a different person...period. Everything changed for her, she grew up suddenly and rudely. It doesn't matter to me how many titles Graff won and I don't want to speculate on anything.

But 1 thing I am sure about, by the end of her career Monica would have done much better than she actually did. Sorry that opinion I am not changing.

When she came back from the stabbing initially it was like she'd never been away. She won the AO, and got to back to back to US Open Finals without dropping a single set. The only difference being that Graf made those finals to face her.

After that her father got sick and died, she put on most of the weight during this time and sunk into a deep depression. She had a far bigger problem coming back from that devastating blow than she did from the stabbing. That's why I've never thought her post 1996 career trajectory would have been any different than it actually was.

The window of opportunity where I think Seles may have missed out was during the time she actually spent out of the game - nothing after she came back.

 

[Billie]

NO! Everything that happened with Monica influenced her father deeply and caused his illness and death. And don't tell me stressful situations don't do that, as I have numerous examples with people I know that passed away with sudden and fatal illness, cancers included. By her admission, she never felt the same on that tennis court and anybody could see it unless they were blind, of course.:nono

And I noticed that you didn't have a reply on my comparison with Nole's case. So you agree with me that Monica "could have improved" her tennis skills?

Tennis is mostly mental, you know that.

:hug lot

 

[britbox]

:nono Her father wasn't at Hamburg because he was having tests - and was diagnosed with terminal stomach cancer. He didn't get the disease as a result of the stabbing, it was already there.