Monica Seles - Steffi Graf

[Kieran]

But I also disagree with you that Seles' career would have followed the same course post-1996 that it did. We don't know if she would have had weight problems, or if that was a coping mechanism. We don't know how she would have responded to her father's and coach's deaths - if she would have been more resilient without the "psychic wound" that the stabbing inflicted. We can't underestimate the impact that psychology has on everything else in one's life.

This...

 

[jhar26]

The consensus seems to be that, at her very best, Serena was the greatest women's player of all time, but a peak Graf might have found a way to win - she seemed to have a more diverse game, if I remember correctly.

The thing is that people ALWAYS think that whoever is the best now would have whipped the butt of past greats. As Connors said in that interview that I posted the other day, "you can never compete with what's hot now." But with the distance of time everyone can better assess what was going on, how good everyone was and so on. I think it's harder to do that when you're right in the middle of it.

 

[El Dude]

The consensus seems to be that, at her very best, Serena was the greatest women's player of all time, but a peak Graf might have found a way to win - she seemed to have a more diverse game, if I remember correctly.

The thing is that people ALWAYS think that whoever is the best now would have whipped the butt of past greats. As Connors said in that interview that I posted the other day, "you can never compete with what's hot now." But with the distance of time everyone can better assess what was going on, how good everyone was and so on. I think it's harder to do that when you're right in the middle of it.

And Mr. Connors doesn't have a horse in that race?

Anyhow, I agree with you insofar that while I think the game evolves, so that the best players now are playing as high a game of tennis as has ever been played, I have no doubt that if a 17-year old Swede by the name of Bjorn Borg started the tour in 2013 he'd be just as good as he was in the 70s and early 80s because his natural talent and mentality would lead to a player great for today.

All we can do is compare how great a player is relative to his or her contemporaries. For baseball fans, I am reminded of Barry Bonds in the early Aughties - he was just so much better than everyone else (steroids aside!), it gave us a taste of what Babe Ruth must have been like in the 20s. Or Michael Jordan in the late 80s and early 90s, Wayne Gretzky, etc.

Serena Williams, at times, has been as dominant as any player I've ever seen in tennis - maybe not Barry Bonds 2001-04, but pretty close to it.

To put all of this another way, I think with greatness you have to consider different time spans.

- Ultimate peak - how good a player was at their very best, over short periods of time.
- Peak years - how good a player was during their best years, over a few years at least.
- Career- how good a player was over the course of their entire career.

In looking at overall greatness, all three must be weighed with somewhat equal measure. It also separates the different tiers of greats, so that we have players like Navratilova, Graf, Court, and Evert standing tall in all three categories, but Serena--and more so Seles--falling a bit short on the last, at least relative to the Big Four. But I think you can say that Serena's "ultimate peak" is as high as anyone's, perhaps higher. Seles is close, and her short peak was up there with anyone.

 

[Billie]

The thing is she didn't struggle when she first came back. She won the Canadian Open (winning the final 6-0,6-1). She then went to the US Open and didn't drop a set until she reached final and faced Graf. She then went and won the Australian Open (Graf was absent). She got injured before the French and got knocked out in the QF). She never did much at Wimbledon (her worst surface) but returned to the US Open again in the September and got to the final again without dropping a set... before facing Graf again. If she hadn't had Graf to contend with at the US Open she'd likely have had 3 majors in 13 months.

It was after this that her Dad fell ill with cancer, she got very depressed and put on a lot of weight.

As I mentioned in the article - the stabbing was a tragedy and probably cost her some majors. But from 1996 onwards, I can't see her career trajectory being much different.

As for Graf - I don't understand what you mean by campaigning for an end to violence in tennis. There wasn't an epidemic of violence - it was more of a "one off" incident. The only other violent incidents I can recall are brawls between Serbian and Croatian football fans in the stands. Usually at the AO.

I'm not sure what Graf could have done other than suggest a couple of extra security guards around the players... and to be honest, Steffi Graf was completely blameless anyway.

BB, the stabbing not only cost her "some" majors, it changed her life, I am so sure about that. I've read so many articles about the incident at the time and years after the incident. I also read articles about her struggles in the years after.

Somebody from your country attacks your fellow player for no other reason but to put you back on top of the game and you don't say anything? No sympathy, no support of any kind? I understand that she does not need to, per se, but in my eyes that makes her as cold as ice. They wanted to protect her ranking and made her co #1 when she finally started playing again, but Steffi was against it. Is it just woman's jealousy or something more? I believe that the way how Steffi treated that whole unfortunate event also did not help Monica in her healing process and she just gave up. She never felt safe on tennis court afterwards, her fellow players couldn't understand her, I think she just gave up after a while. And it showed when Monica faced Steffi after the incident.

She fell into depression, doubt, her father got gravely sick, of course she become injured as she wasn't training as hard. I understand that most of the stuff is just emotional on my part and other people don't have to share the same opinion. But I am sure in one thing: she was a special tennis player and she was doing great, she was stopped at the beginning of her success and it was one of the most unfortunate events in all of the sports. And for me she was more exciting that Graf ever was.

 

[britbox]

BB, the stabbing not only cost her "some" majors, it changed her life, I am so sure about that. I've read so many articles about the incident at the time and years after the incident. I also read articles about her struggles in the years after.

Somebody from your country attacks your fellow player for no other reason but to put you back on top of the game and you don't say anything? No sympathy, no support of any kind? I understand that she does not need to, per se, but in my eyes that makes her as cold as ice. They wanted to protect her ranking and made her co #1 when she finally started playing again, but Steffi was against it. Is it just woman's jealousy or something more? I believe that the way how Steffi treated that whole unfortunate event also did not help Monica in her healing process and she just gave up. She never felt safe on tennis court afterwards, her fellow players couldn't understand her, I think she just gave up after a while. And it showed when Monica faced Steffi after the incident.

She fell into depression, doubt, her father got gravely sick, of course she become injured as she wasn't training as hard. I understand that most of the stuff is just emotional on my part and other people don't have to share the same opinion. But I am sure in one thing: she was a special tennis player and she was doing great, she was stopped at the beginning of her success and it was one of the most unfortunate events in all of the sports. And for me she was more exciting that Graf ever was.

Billie, there was sympathy shown by Graf - she visited Seles in hospital, apparently they cried together and Graf said on the record she was horrified that it happened in Germany and it was a fan of hers that did it.

You're almost making out Graf herself was responsible.

As for the other things. Watch the USO 95 and 96, watch the AO 96 and then come back and show me how Monica gave up on tennis. No doubt the incident changed things and no doubt it changed her life, but all things change your life. Nobody stays as an innocent fresh faced 19 year old.

I have a lot of sympathy for Seles, but take the romanticism out of it for a minute.

 

[britbox]

Serena Williams, at times, has been as dominant as any player I've ever seen in tennis - maybe not Barry Bonds 2001-04, but pretty close to it.

To put all of this another way, I think with greatness you have to consider different time spans.

- Ultimate peak - how good a player was at their very best, over short periods of time.
- Peak years - how good a player was during their best years, over a few years at least.
- Career- how good a player was over the course of their entire career.

In looking at overall greatness, all three must be weighed with somewhat equal measure. It also separates the different tiers of greats, so that we have players like Navratilova, Graf, Court, and Evert standing tall in all three categories, but Serena--and more so Seles--falling a bit short on the last, at least relative to the Big Four. But I think you can say that Serena's "ultimate peak" is as high as anyone's, perhaps higher. Seles is close, and her short peak was up there with anyone.

I'd respectfully disagree with that and the levels of domination. We discussed earlier Monica's dominance in the 91/92 period and we've discussed the other greats and comparative dominance. If we're talking ultimate dominance over a couple of years then Navratilova and Graf have the best records.

Here is a comparison of Graf, Navratilova, Seles, Serena and their best two year stint.

Dominance in consecutive years:

STEFFI GRAF
1988
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (4): Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open (+Olympic Gold)
Won/Lost: 72-3 (96%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) Navratilova 1-0 (Graf)
v (3) Evert 3-0 (Graf)
v (4) Sabatini 3-2 (Graf)
v (5) Shriver 2-1 (Graf)

1989
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (3): Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open
Won/Lost: 86-2 (97.7%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) Navratilova 3-0 (Graf)
v (3) Sabatini 3-1 (Graf)
v (4) Garrison 2-0 (Graf)
v (5) Sanchez 3-1 (Graf)

MARTINA NAVRATILOVA
1983
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (3): Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open
Won/Lost: 86-1 (98.8%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) Evert 6-0 (Navratilova)
v (3) Jaeger 3-0 (Navratilova)
v (4) Shriver 6-0 (Navratilova)
v (5) Hanika 4-0 (Navratilova)

1984
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (3): French Open, Wimbledon, US Open
Won/Lost: 78-2 (97.5%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) Evert 6-0 (Navratilova)
v (3) Mandlikova 2-1 (Navratilova)
v (4) Shriver 2-0 (Navratilova)
v (5) Turnbull 3-0 (Navratilova)

MONICA SELES
1991:
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (3): Australian Open, French Open, US Open
Won/Lost: 74-6 (92.5%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) Graf 0-2 (Graf)
v (3) Sabatini 3-1 (Seles)
v (4) Navratilova 3-2 (Seles)
v (5) Sanchez 4-0 (Seles)

1992:
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (3): Australian Open, French Open, US Open
Won/Lost: 70-5 (93.3%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) Graf 1-1 (Tie)
v (3) Sabatini 3-1 (Seles)
v (4) Sanchez 4-1 (Seles)
v (5) Navratilova 3-1 (Seles)

SERENA WILLIAMS
2002
End of Year Rank: #1
Majors Won (3): French Open, Wimbledon, US Open
Won/Lost: 56–5 (91.8%)

H2H against Top 5
v (2) V.Williams 4-0 (S.Williams)
v (3) Capriati 4-0 (S.Williams)
v (4) Clijsters 1-1 (Tie)
v (5) Henin 2-1 (S.Williams)

2003
End of Year Rank: #3
Majors Won (2): Australian Open, Wimbledon
Won/Lost: 38–3 (92.7%)

H2H against Top 5
v (1) Henin 1-2 (Henin)
v (2) Clijsters 2-0 (Williams)
v (4) Mauresmo 2-1 (Williams)
v (5) Davenport 1-0 (Williams)

Serena's best years fall some way short of the others. In fact Serena's highest win/loss percentage in one year was last year (94%). Graf and Navratilova both equalled or bettered that 5 times.

I would agree though that Serena, at her very very best maybe the "best" player I've ever seen. Note "best" as different to "greatest" which I really relate to accomplishments and overall dominance.

I'd suggest Graf's 88/89 or Nav's 83/84 combos were the best of those, with Monica's 91/92 seasons following.

 

[Billie]

BB, the stabbing not only cost her "some" majors, it changed her life, I am so sure about that. I've read so many articles about the incident at the time and years after the incident. I also read articles about her struggles in the years after.

Somebody from your country attacks your fellow player for no other reason but to put you back on top of the game and you don't say anything? No sympathy, no support of any kind? I understand that she does not need to, per se, but in my eyes that makes her as cold as ice. They wanted to protect her ranking and made her co #1 when she finally started playing again, but Steffi was against it. Is it just woman's jealousy or something more? I believe that the way how Steffi treated that whole unfortunate event also did not help Monica in her healing process and she just gave up. She never felt safe on tennis court afterwards, her fellow players couldn't understand her, I think she just gave up after a while. And it showed when Monica faced Steffi after the incident.

She fell into depression, doubt, her father got gravely sick, of course she become injured as she wasn't training as hard. I understand that most of the stuff is just emotional on my part and other people don't have to share the same opinion. But I am sure in one thing: she was a special tennis player and she was doing great, she was stopped at the beginning of her success and it was one of the most unfortunate events in all of the sports. And for me she was more exciting that Graf ever was.

Billie, there was sympathy shown by Graf - she visited Seles in hospital, apparently they cried together and Graf said on the record she was horrified that it happened in Germany and it was a fan of hers that did it.

You're almost making out Graf herself was responsible.

As for the other things. Watch the USO 95 and 96, watch the AO 96 and then come back and show me how Monica gave up on tennis. No doubt the incident changed things and no doubt it changed her life, but all things change your life. Nobody stays as an innocent fresh faced 19 year old.

I have a lot of sympathy for Seles, but take the romanticism out of it for a minute.

The way I remember the accounts surrounding her visit, Graf spent a few minutes in hospital, it was weird and awkward by Monica's accounts later. Did you evven read Monica's book about all her struggles? And it wasn't even just the stabbing, it's the whole process after that and the fact that he really never was punished properly for his crime. I bet that if she were an American citizen at the time, that idiot would have been punished much harder.

But it does not matter, I can't expect you to feel the same way as I do about the subject. I have my opinions about many things and very rarely change them unless proven completely wrong. I also don't jump to quick conclusions and I do form my opinion based on numerous accounts not only from Monica but others who were close to her. I never said that Graf was guilty or responsible in any way for it, did I. I just stated that she didn't endear herself to me. Maybe she is just that kind of person and doesn't show her feelings at all.

We were all 19 once and had experiences that changed our lives, but how many of us were stabbed in back when we were on top of the tennis rankings?
I also understand that there are more and bigger tragedies in this world than Monica's, much worse than that. But in the scope of tennis or sports, it is highly tragic, to me. But some people think that her wound wasn't that big, it healed soon, so no reason to take 2 years off, she was just a drama queen, etc.

And no thanks, I don't want to watch any of her matches post stabbing. Not even the ones she won. That book is closed for me. Some people stay depressed for a long time or do worse things to themselves. Monica is alive and well and hopefully enjoys her life. I am sure we all had "what could have happened" moments in our lives. But it is not healthy to dwell on that. Graf earned her slams and it wasn't her fault that her crazy fan took out her biggest competitor.

Peace!!

 

[britbox]

The way I remember the accounts surrounding her visit, Graf spent a few minutes in hospital, it was weird and awkward by Monica's accounts later. Did you evven read Monica's book about all her struggles? And it wasn't even just the stabbing, it's the whole process after that and the fact that he really never was punished properly for his crime. I bet that if she were an American citizen at the time, that idiot would have been punished much harder.

But it does not matter, I can't expect you to feel the same way as I do about the subject. I have my opinions about many things and very rarely change them unless proven completely wrong. I also don't jump to quick conclusions and I do form my opinion based on numerous accounts not only from Monica but others who were close to her. I never said that Graf was guilty or responsible in any way for it, did I. I just stated that she didn't endear herself to me. Maybe she is just that kind of person and doesn't show her feelings at all.

We were all 19 once and had experiences that changed our lives, but how many of us were stabbed in back when we were on top of the tennis rankings?
I also understand that there are more and bigger tragedies in this world than Monica's, much worse than that. But in the scope of tennis or sports, it is highly tragic, to me. But some people think that her wound wasn't that big, it healed soon, so no reason to take 2 years off, she was just a drama queen, etc.

And no thanks, I don't want to watch any of her matches post stabbing. Not even the ones she won. That book is closed for me. Some people stay depressed for a long time or do worse things to themselves. Monica is alive and well and hopefully enjoys her life. I am sure we all had "what could have happened" moments in our lives. But it is not healthy to dwell on that. Graf earned her slams and it wasn't her fault that her crazy fan took out her biggest competitor.

Peace!!

Some fair points there. I know they were never friends but rivals... and yes, I did Monica's book some time ago. Steffi even said they didn't really know what to say to each other, but had a little cry and left shortly afterwards. Graf herself was quite introverted and shy also. Remember, she was only 23 herself.

I didn't like Seles much before the incident - I found her very arrogant and recall her saying publically when she took over number 1, that Steffi Graf would never be Number 1 again. Other players complained about her and excessive grunting (she pretty much introduced it to women's tennis). She was not popular pre-1993.

Afterwards, she was the total opposite. Friendly, humble, generous and well-liked. So yes, it did change her for sure.

Don't think for a minute, I'm not sympathetic to Monica Seles regarding that incident.

That blog posts and subsequent threads are looking at it from a hard cold perspective and from a view relating to Steffi Graf's legacy.

Peace indeed!

 

[El Dude]

Britbox, by "ultimate peak" I mean how good a player can be at their best over the span of a single or few tournaments. What you're doing with a two-year span is closer to the "peak years." And yes, I agree that Serena falls short of the others in the larger span of time (2+ years), but my view is that at her very best, during a single tournament or short period of time, she was as good as anyone.

 

[Billie]

BB, thanks for the exchanges, always a pleasure. I think that we just like different types of players.

I also think that Monica is not as bad as you remember her nor Steffi is as bad as I remember her, that, perhaps, would be fair to say.

 

[Mastoor]

I think Navratilova said it right. It took one crazy German to change history of the world and another one to change history of tennis.

 

[britbox]

I agree - Johannes Gutenberg and Steffi Graf were great for Germany.

 

[Kieran]

I think Navratilova said it right. It took one crazy German to change history of the world and another one to change history of tennis.

They didn't 'change' history at all. That's actually not possible...

 

[Billie]

I think Navratilova said it right. It took one crazy German to change history of the world and another one to change history of tennis.

They didn't 'change' history at all. That's actually not possible...

You really think that if it weren't for Hitler and Parche, everything would have turned out the exactly the same way? The existance and actions of those two did in a way "change" or impact if you will the respective histories, in a horrible way I might add.

 

[Kieran]

I think Navratilova said it right. It took one crazy German to change history of the world and another one to change history of tennis.

They didn't 'change' history at all. That's actually not possible...

You really think that if it weren't for Hitler and Parche, everything would have turned out the exactly the same way? The existance and actions of those two did in a way "change" or impact if you will the respective histories, in a horrible way I might add.

Hitler and Parche were history - they didn't change it. They became (terrible) parts of it...

 

[Billie]

Ok K, you are right. Technically they didn't change history, what I wanted to say is that their existance (especially Hitler's) marked a beginning of a dark period in World's history.

 

[Kieran]

You're not wrong there...

 

[Omair]

I've got embroiled in this topic too many times over the years. Monica Seles was a great player but I think their is a lot of casual inaccurate reporting on the degree to which Steffi Graf benefited. So, I've had a stab at a blog post. Look forward to opinion on the content but also the way it's written.

I'm not precious and it's my first real attempt, so rip it to bits...

http://www.tennisfrontier.com/blogs/britbox/monica-seles-stabbing-steffi-grafs-legacy/

Wow! That is all I can say. Extremely well written article and very logical. Loved the way you built up the case and supported it with facts. Thanks for this wonderful piece.

 

[Correspondent Kiu]

Welcome Omair!

We were missing you around here.

 

[Omair]

Welcome Omair!

We were missing you around here.

Thanks A lot Kiu I found this site today Been busy with the upcoming exams in June and hence been unable to keep myself up to date.
I am really happy that there is finally a forum where we don't have to fear that it will close down