Maradona v Pele...

[atttomole]

Decent list, but Jesus Christ is Lionel Messi light-years ahead of the players you ranked in the second category. The only modern era player who would have come close to him would have been Brazilian Ronaldo had it not been for injuries.

Messi's numbers might be inflated due to playing for a Superteam, but nobody in the history of football has performed on a week-to-week basis like he does. On the club level, he's the best of all time by about 28292020 miles.

I also don't see how Zico, Platini, Zidana can be better than Messi, with all respect to them. Messi should be at least in the second tier. Pele's numbers are also inflated because of the time he played.

 

[atttomole]

The only reason some are reluctant to call Messi what he is (the greatest player of all time) is because in Football, we tend to romanticize the past and inflate the legend of some players we grew up watching/hearing about.

And I really hope someone brings up the "never won a World Cup" argument so I can go on a rant...

My issue with Messi is not so much for not winning the WC, because one also needs luck to win a WC. The thing with Messi is he has not played very well at national team level, generally speaking. He is not able to reproduce his Barcelona level of play when playing for Argentina, and I think he can, but I am surprised as to why he has not done so.

 

[Federberg]

The only reason some are reluctant to call Messi what he is (the greatest player of all time) is because in Football, we tend to romanticize the past and inflate the legend of some players we grew up watching/hearing about.

And I really hope someone brings up the "never won a World Cup" argument so I can go on a rant...

I just can't get there with Messi. And it's strange really.. of all the great players of the last 20 years, I have watched Messi more than any other (I'm not including Bale as a great great player even though he's phenomenally talented). But at the end of the day, what sets Messi apart is that he hasn't won anything for his country. I can't get past that. His lack of international production is almost Dimitrovian. No one doubts his talent, and he gets to advertise it playing for one of the greatest club teams we've ever seen. Even Cristiano has won a national title

 

[mrzz]

In my defense about Messi: As I said, I have not been following football at all in the last 5 years, barely followed in the five years before that, so neither Messi neither any other current player would get high on my list. Given the little I have seen, he really seems an absurd player.

I saw him playing entire matches only for Argentina -- he played well, but not otherworldly. But, again, I cannot have an opinion about a guy I actually don´t know. I would need to have followed entire matches to say something relevant -- youtube clips can make anyone look like a GOAT.

P.S. Even though I am Brazilian, in general I root for Argentina.

 

[mrzz]

Ok, Pelé´s numbers were inflated by his time. It is true. But how much? 20%? 80%? 120%? Inflate them 200% and they are still better than the rest. And about the other guys playing at the same time? Why their numbers are not up there?

Pelé played on a team that took 30 freaking years to win a title on a national level again after he left, let alone an international one. The guy played on more than a thousand matches and his goals per match average is close to 1!!!! I don´t have time to do this, but if we could compare his stats counting only international matches, I am sure his goals per match ratio would be 9843543587345 larger than the rest of the top guys (on the same conditions). All respect for a lot of great guys who haven´t won much, but when you have great numbers and actually always made the difference and made your team win the big matches, you´re in another league.

 

[atttomole]

I make a guess and say 50 %.

 

[Federberg]

Ok, Pelé´s numbers were inflated by his time. It is true. But how much? 20%? 80%? 120%? Inflate them 200% and they are still better than the rest. And about the other guys playing at the same time? Why their numbers are not up there?

Pelé played on a team that took 30 freaking years to win a title on a national level again after he left, let alone an international one. The guy played on more than a thousand matches and his goals per match average is close to 1!!!! I don´t have time to do this, but if we could compare his stats counting only international matches, I am sure his goals per match ratio would be 9843543587345 larger than the rest of the top guys (on the same conditions). All respect for a lot of great guys who haven´t won much, but when you have great numbers and actually always made the difference and made your team win the big matches, you´re in another league.

I think you'll find that Cristiano's goals per game ratio is pretty high.

And the greatest player for my team had an absurd scoring record as well... Jimmy Greaves.

My dad actually used to coach a little bit of football and he met Pele. I wouldn't even waste my energy talking about anyone else with him... apart from George Best... And even Pele said Best was the best he'd seen... go figure!

 

[mrzz]

I think you'll find that Cristiano's goals per game ratio is pretty high.

And the greatest player for my team had an absurd scoring record as well... Jimmy Greaves.

My dad actually used to coach a little bit of football and he met Pele. I wouldn't even waste my energy talking about anyone else with him... apart from George Best... And even Pele said Best was the best he'd seen... go figure!

Your dad is a wise man. Maybe Pelé met Best when he was still learning English: "Me, Pelé, you, Best", and everyone else got it all wrong.

About averages: If those guys have good averages, good for them (I mean, really). But Pelé´s average is made on a giant sample, almost 1400 matches -- so it gives a helluva of a statistical significance.

 

[Federberg]

That's fair enough. But...
(1) this doesn't devolve down to goals
(2) It was a bit more than that regarding George Best. Now I for one would not call him GOAT. But if all you can say about Best is "maybe Pele made a language error" you're exposing your lack of knowledge about football!

 

[brokenshoelace]

I just can't get there with Messi. And it's strange really.. of all the great players of the last 20 years, I have watched Messi more than any other (I'm not including Bale as a great great player even though he's phenomenally talented). But at the end of the day, what sets Messi apart is that he hasn't won anything for his country. I can't get past that. His lack of international production is almost Dimitrovian. No one doubts his talent, and he gets to advertise it playing for one of the greatest club teams we've ever seen. Even Cristiano has won a national title

This is my thing about Messi and the national team argument (or World Cup argument). I'll actually start with the World Cup argument, which in fairness, you haven't brought up, but I'll discuss anyway because many use it as a point of criticism towards Messi (ie. "How can you be the best if you haven't won the World Cup?").

The World Cup takes place once every 4 years, for a period of one month. Which means that A LOT has to go right for you to win it. It starts with the national team coach, the talent level around you, injuries, refereeing, luck, the path to the final, etc... We're talking about defining a player's whole career because of an event which lasts 1 month and happens every 4 years. To me, that is a bit absurd.

Nowadays, I don't think there's even an argument that most put emphasis on club football in terms of focus throughout their careers, which is why you rarely see the absolute best managers in the world coaching the national team. In turn, this meant that the state of international football is putrid (seriously, watch a Champions League match, and compare it to some of the matches we've seen at the last Euro championships. It's night and day).

So the whole World Cup argument is easily countered by the following: When Messi does what he does in the Champions League, he's doing it on a higher level. Yes, a higher level. Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, etc... are much, much better than any national team in the world. They get to train together every week, play every week (often twice a week), drill tactics, gameplans, develop players, etc... Yes, there is no doubt Messi plays on an absolutely fantastic team (and that is a major point for Maradona, who did what he did for mediocre Napoli at the peak of Serie A, no question), but this fantastic team wouldn't have won anything without him. There's no question about that.

We are talking about a player who week in and week out, since pretty much 2007, has been playing a level of football which we had never seen before, literally every week. He doesn't go through a bad stretch (a Messi drop in form means going 2 weeks without scoring), and he does it all. He's the best dribbler in history (only Maradona is in the conversation with him in that regard), the best finisher with history (I'd maybe put Brazilian Ronaldo ahead of him because of his ability to score with both feet), has the best first touch I have ever seen, is an absolutely phenomenal passer, etc...

Think about that, dribbling, control, finishing and passing are the most important aspects of football. And he is exceptional at all of them. He does them so well nobody actually cares or notices that he doesn't use his weaker foot all that much (just like Diego) and doesn't score with his head often.

Guardiola said something about Messi that is absolutely true... it's not just about the obvious things he does (ie beating 3 players and scoring), it's about the simple things. He never loses the ball. The simple one-touch passes when he needs to. Never fails to complete a pass. Never makes the wrong decision. For a player with such inhuman quality and talent, it would be very easy for him to try and do too much every time, because he can (Neymar often falls victim of that). Messi just always makes the right choice. I've never seen a player whose chances at scoring from just outside the box are the same as scoring from a clear one-on-one with the keeper.

I always use Zidane as a highlight of how good Messi is. Zidane is one of the best I've ever seen. Absolutely phenomenal player. He's not even close to Messi's level. That's how good Messi is.

As far as the national team goes, he's reached 3 finals in 3 years (World Cup in 2014, Copa American in 2015 and Copa America in 2016). He was crowned as the best player of the tournament in two of them (World Cup and Copa America 2016). What more does he need to do? I guess the obvious answer to that question is: win the damn thing. And that's fair, to an extent, but this is a team sport. We can't lose sight of that. Argentina would probably have won the World Cup if Di Maria, who was sensational throughout the tournament, didn't miss the final due to injury (as did Aguero).

Gonzalo Higuain and Rodrigo Palacio missed absolute sitters in the 2014 World Cup final. If they score we're talking about Messi as a World Cup winner. Think about that, a player's legacy is defined by very two specific events he had no control over (Higuain had similar insanely bad misses in both Copa America finals). Meanwhile, Buruchaga scored in the 1986 World Cup final and cemented Maradona's legacy (Diego was out of this world in that World Cup but he didn't have a very good final). Cristiano Ronaldo is lauded for winning the Euros yet he was taken off injured 15 minutes into the final, and pretty much won it because Gignac had an awful miss for France late in the match and Eder scored for Portugal in extra time... Again, two events Cristiano had zero control over. He wasn't even on the pitch.

I just can't attribute more importance to national team "failures" than the champions league heroics, the Liga dominance, the big match performances in Europe, etc... that Messi displays every season. Over the last 8 years, he's scored the most goals AND produced the most assists out of any player in the world. That is absolutely insane.

 

[britbox]

This is my thing about Messi and the national team argument (or World Cup argument). I'll actually start with the World Cup argument, which in fairness, you haven't brought up, but I'll discuss anyway because many use it as a point of criticism towards Messi (ie. "How can you be the best if you haven't won the World Cup?").

The World Cup takes place once every 4 years, for a period of one month. Which means that A LOT has to go right for you to win it. It starts with the national team coach, the talent level around you, injuries, refereeing, luck, the path to the final, etc... We're talking about defining a player's whole career because of an event which lasts 1 month and happens every 4 years. To me, that is a bit absurd.

Nowadays, I don't think there's even an argument that most put emphasis on club football in terms of focus throughout their careers, which is why you rarely see the absolute best managers in the world coaching the national team. In turn, this meant that the state of international football is putrid (seriously, watch a Champions League match, and compare it to some of the matches we've seen at the last Euro championships. It's night and day).

So the whole World Cup argument is easily countered by the following: When Messi does what he does in the Champions League, he's doing it on a higher level. Yes, a higher level. Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, etc... are much, much better than any national team in the world. They get to train together every week, play every week (often twice a week), drill tactics, gameplans, develop players, etc... Yes, there is no doubt Messi plays on an absolutely fantastic team (and that is a major point for Maradona, who did what he did for mediocre Napoli at the peak of Serie A, no question), but this fantastic team wouldn't have won anything without him. There's no question about that.

We are talking about a player who week in and week out, since pretty much 2007, has been playing a level of football which we had never seen before, literally every week. He doesn't go through a bad stretch (a Messi drop in form means going 2 weeks without scoring), and he does it all. He's the best dribbler in history (only Maradona is in the conversation with him in that regard), the best finisher with history (I'd maybe put Brazilian Ronaldo ahead of him because of his ability to score with both feet), has the best first touch I have ever seen, is an absolutely phenomenal passer, etc...

Think about that, dribbling, control, finishing and passing are the most important aspects of football. And he is exceptional at all of them. He does them so well nobody actually cares or notices that he doesn't use his weaker foot all that much (just like Diego) and doesn't score with his head often.

Guardiola said something about Messi that is absolutely true... it's not just about the obvious things he does (ie beating 3 players and scoring), it's about the simple things. He never loses the ball. The simple one-touch passes when he needs to. Never fails to complete a pass. Never makes the wrong decision. For a player with such inhuman quality and talent, it would be very easy for him to try and do too much every time, because he can (Neymar often falls victim of that). Messi just always makes the right choice. I've never seen a player whose chances at scoring from just outside the box are the same as scoring from a clear one-on-one with the keeper.

I always use Zidane as a highlight of how good Messi is. Zidane is one of the best I've ever seen. Absolutely phenomenal player. He's not even close to Messi's level. That's how good Messi is.

As far as the national team goes, he's reached 3 finals in 3 years (World Cup in 2014, Copa American in 2015 and Copa America in 2016). He was crowned as the best player of the tournament in two of them (World Cup and Copa America 2016). What more does he need to do? I guess the obvious answer to that question is: win the damn thing. And that's fair, to an extent, but this is a team sport. We can't lose sight of that. Argentina would probably have won the World Cup if Di Maria, who was sensational throughout the tournament, didn't miss the final due to injury (as did Aguero).

Gonzalo Higuain and Rodrigo Palacio missed absolute sitters in the 2014 World Cup final. If they score we're talking about Messi as a World Cup winner. Think about that, a player's legacy is defined by very two specific events he had no control over (Higuain had similar insanely bad misses in both Copa America finals). Meanwhile, Buruchaga scored in the 1986 World Cup final and cemented Maradona's legacy (Diego was out of this world in that World Cup but he didn't have a very good final). Cristiano Ronaldo is lauded for winning the Euros yet he was taken off injured 15 minutes into the final, and pretty much won it because Gignac had an awful miss for France late in the match and Eder scored for Portugal in extra time... Again, two events Cristiano had zero control over. He wasn't even on the pitch.

I just can't attribute more importance to national team "failures" than the champions league heroics, the Liga dominance, the big match performances in Europe, etc... that Messi displays every season. Over the last 8 years, he's scored the most goals AND produced the most assists out of any player in the world. That is absolutely insane.

I don't think anybody would dispute Messi's record at club level... but we're splitting hairs when talking about the greatest player ever and that's something we need to do frankly. Has Messi dominated a tournament at international world level and come away with the spoils? No, he hasn't... and I think at the level we're discussing this is a breaker for him personally. I would generally agree that top level club football is better than international level, but that's also part of the equation... he's playing on a perennial dream team at club level... at international level, he isn't. I'd put him in a Zico-like bracket... and yes, Zico played for a Flamengo team that was actually the best in the world at the time, and Zico was regarded as the best player in the world early 80s.

You mentioned that we look at the past with rose tinted glasses, but the same also applies with the present - currency is everything in the media.

 

[britbox]

Your dad is a wise man. Maybe Pelé met Best when he was still learning English: "Me, Pelé, you, Best", and everyone else got it all wrong.

About averages: If those guys have good averages, good for them (I mean, really). But Pelé´s average is made on a giant sample, almost 1400 matches -- so it gives a helluva of a statistical significance.

Yeah, the George Best thing is totally overblown. The guy was too pissed up on the drink to get out of bed for many International matches. he's not fit to lace Pele's boots.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I don't think anybody would dispute Messi's record at club level... but we're splitting hairs when talking about the greatest player ever and that's something we need to do frankly. Has Messi dominated a tournament at international world level and come away with the spoils? No, he hasn't... and I think at the level we're discussing this is a breaker for him personally. I would generally agree that top level club football is better than international level, but that's also part of the equation... he's playing on a perennial dream team at club level... at international level, he isn't. I'd put him in a Zico-like bracket... and yes, Zico played for a Flamengo team that was actually the best in the world at the time, and Zico was regarded as the best player in the world early 80s.

You mentioned that we look at the past with rose tinted glasses, but the same also applies with the present - currency is everything in the media.

Wow. I honestly don't think Zico could lace Messi's shoes.

EDIT: Haha, I legit wrote that before reading your above response where you used the same expression.

 

[Federberg]

So the whole World Cup argument is easily countered by the following: When Messi does what he does in the Champions League, he's doing it on a higher level. Yes, a higher level. Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Bayern, etc... are much, much better than any national team in the world. They get to train together every week, play every week (often twice a week), drill tactics, gameplans, develop players, etc... Yes, there is no doubt Messi plays on an absolutely fantastic team (and that is a major point for Maradona, who did what he did for mediocre Napoli at the peak of Serie A, no question), but this fantastic team wouldn't have won anything without him. There's no question about that.

I've heard that argument before, but here's my counter. Messi plays for Barcelona, which is a ridiculously good team. Yes he's failed internationally. At the same time, those Spanish players have been the core of a national team that have won two international championships. That tells me everything I need to know. I would place money on that Barcelona team being able to achieve more success than Messi had he been somewhere else. Conditions were perfect for him. He's simply not the player that dominates and owns the narrative without having a support system built specifically around him. Of all the greats, this is why I rate Maradona so highly. He more than any other made it happen. I just can't get there with Messi. He's skilful but relatively weak. He can actually be taken out of a game. I remember having an argument with a good friend of mine who's more of a Cristiano supporter than Messi (for the record I'm more of a Messi supporter and it's not even close). But he asked me this... if you were a manager and you're building a best 11. Which one of Messi and Ronaldo would you pick first? I thought long and hard, and had to concede that I would probably pick Cristiano first. You know why? Because if you're going to build a good 11, you don't have to start worrying about who would fit well with Messi. With Cristiano you can pick the best players in each position with the assurance that he has the pace and power to be effective in any system you choose to play. You can't do that with Messi. He's a high maintenance addition, that doesn't necessarily result in an optimal 11. That's just my view of course, but when I posed that question to many others they were often surprised that when they took it seriously they often came to the same conclusion. That's not what should happen if the player really is the best ever

 

[brokenshoelace]

I've heard that argument before, but here's my counter. Messi plays for Barcelona, which is a ridiculously good team. Yes he's failed internationally. At the same time, those Spanish players have been the core of a national team that have won two international championships. That tells me everything I need to know. I would place money on that Barcelona team being able to achieve more success than Messi had he been somewhere else.

Actually, not quite, and this argument is easy to dispel. Spain won so much with many of the same players (but not Messi, obviously), but that's because nobody was anywhere near their level. In other words, no national team had enough talent resembling what Spain had. The same does not apply on the club level, where competition is much fiercer across Europe, and the level of club football are just way, way better than the international stage.

Case in point, even with such a stacked team, Barcelona still lost in the Champions League to Mourinho's Inter Milan (a team that achieved the treble that year). Which international team is anywhere near the level of Inter Milan in 2010? Nobody. Which is why using the argument that Spain winning so much means Barca would have won just as much without Messi is ridiculous. They still lost to Inter, Chelsea, Bayern, Atletico, etc... And when they did win, they needed out of this world performances from Messi in each one of their Champions League triumphs.

Conditions were perfect for him. He's simply not the player that dominates and owns the narrative without having a support system built specifically around him. Of all the greats, this is why I rate Maradona so highly. He more than any other made it happen. I just can't get there with Messi. He's skilful but relatively weak. He can actually be taken out of a game. I remember having an argument with a good friend of mine who's more of a Cristiano supporter than Messi (for the record I'm more of a Messi supporter and it's not even close). But he asked me this... if you were a manager and you're building a best 11. Which one of Messi and Ronaldo would you pick first? I thought long and hard, and had to concede that I would probably pick Cristiano first. You know why? Because if you're going to build a good 11, you don't have to start worrying about who would fit well with Messi. With Cristiano you can pick the best players in each position with the assurance that he has the pace and power to be effective in any system you choose to play. You can't do that with Messi. He's a high maintenance addition, that doesn't necessarily result in an optimal 11. That's just my view of course, but when I posed that question to many others they were often surprised that when they took it seriously they often came to the same conclusion. That's not what should happen if the player really is the best ever

Completely disagree with this. Messi's weak? The guy practically never goes down, and has absolutely inhuman balance (it really is almost inhuman). For his size, he's a freak. He can never be bullied off the ball with sheer strength. He's not the physical specimen that Ronaldo is but his balance, strength, agility, low center of gravity, etc... are all incredible.

If I were building a team I'd pick Messi without thinking twice. All this talk about his international failure is silly. He reached 3 international finals in three consecutive years. Lost two on penalties and one in extra time. Standards have gotten ridiculous if this is considered a failure.

 

[Federberg]

Actually, not quite, and this argument is easy to dispel. Spain won so much with many of the same players (but not Messi, obviously), but that's because nobody was anywhere near their level. In other words, no national team had enough talent resembling what Spain had. The same does not apply on the club level, where competition is much fiercer across Europe, and the level of club football are just way, way better than the international stage.

Case in point, even with such a stacked team, Barcelona still lost in the Champions League to Mourinho's Inter Milan (a team that achieved the treble that year). Which international team is anywhere near the level of Inter Milan in 2010? Nobody. Which is why using the argument that Spain winning so much means Barca would have won just as much without Messi is ridiculous. They still lost to Inter, Chelsea, Bayern, Atletico, etc... And when they did win, they needed out of this world performances from Messi in each one of their Champions League triumphs.

Don't you see the contradiction in this? If international teams are not that good, it says a lot that Messi hasn't been able to win anything. Bear in mind he had the likes of Kun Aguero, Mascherano, Di Maria and Higuain playing in the same team. I'm sorry but those are all exceptional players and still he couldn't cut it. The irony is that Argentina has had a stacked team in international terms for years. That goes doubly against Messi in my view. I can only imagine the havoc Maradona would do with that sort of quality beside him. The Argentinians I know are offended to even hear Messi's name in the same vicinity as Maradona's. They know a GOAT when they see one

 

[brokenshoelace]

Don't you see the contradiction in this? If international teams are not that good, it says a lot that Messi hasn't been able to win anything. Bear in mind he had the likes of Kun Aguero, Mascherano, Di Maria and Higuain playing in the same team. I'm sorry but those are all exceptional players and still he couldn't cut it. The irony is that Argentina has had a stacked team in international terms for years. That goes doubly against Messi in my view. I can only imagine the havoc Maradona would do with that sort of quality beside him. The Argentinians I know are offended to even hear Messi's name in the same vicinity as Maradona's. They know a GOAT when they see one

Again, he reached 3 consecutive finals, and I've explained at least twice the circumstances of those losses. Maradona wasn't great in the 1986 final, was he? Another player delivered and cemented his legacy for him on that day (Diego obviously did the work leading up to the final). Higuain on the other hand, single handedly ruined Messi's international career with 3 disastrous misses in as many finals.

It's so short sighted to strictly look at things from a titles perspective. This is not tennis. It's not about how many Grand Slams you won...

Also, it is beyond ridiculous, that a player who is by far the greatest club player in history is shrugged off as not on the level of other greats due to international competition, when club football is the one being played week in and week out (please, no grand slams vs. masters 1000 events analogy since the Champions League is surely no Masters 1000 event. it is a Grand Slam).

Don't you see the silliness of the argument? Yeah, Messi has displayed his greatness literally every week since 2007 (so 10 years now), but how good is he really that he hasn't won those 3 finals he reached on the international stage (so three matches are being weighed in more heavily than a whole career played at a higher level of football)? Also, you are right that the Argentina national team has a lot of talent, except it was never balanced (all the talented players are forwards, except for Mascherano), and they have yet to have a good coach (although Sampaoli, their coach who took over recently, is excellent). Ironically, it was Maradona's awful coaching that was responsible for the disastrous 2010 campaign. This is a team game.

 

[Federberg]

Again, he reached 3 consecutive finals, and I've explained at least twice the circumstances of those losses. Maradona wasn't great in the 1986 final, was he? Another player delivered and cemented his legacy for him on that day (Diego obviously did the work leading up to the final). Higuain on the other hand, single handedly ruined Messi's international career with 3 disastrous misses in as many finals.

It's so short sighted to strictly look at things from a titles perspective. This is not tennis. It's not about how many Grand Slams you won...

Also, it is beyond ridiculous, that a player who is by far the greatest club player in history is shrugged off as not on the level of other greats due to international competition, when club football is the one being played week in and week out (please, no grand slams vs. masters 1000 events analogy since the Champions League is surely no Masters 1000 event. it is a Grand Slam).

Don't you see the silliness of the argument? Yeah, Messi has displayed his greatness literally every week since 2007 (so 10 years now), but how good is he really that he hasn't won those 3 finals he reached on the international stage (so three matches are being weighed in more heavily than a whole career played at a higher level of football)? Also, you are right that the Argentina national team has a lot of talent, except it was never balanced (all the talented players are forwards, except for Mascherano), and they have yet to have a good coach (although Sampaoli, their coach who took over recently, is excellent). Ironically, it was Maradona's awful coaching that was responsible for the disastrous 2010 campaign. This is a team game.

I'm sorry I can't separate the quality of his Barcelona team mates from Messis club achievements. I'm not even sure he's the greatest club player of all time. The question I have is, would he be as good if he didn't have those players around him. I have real doubts. That's the thing about guys like Brazilian Ronaldo, that dude was a one man wrecking crew, put him in the Wrexham team and they would play awesome. Messi? Not so much in my opinion. Let's agree to disagree

 

[britbox]

Wow. I honestly don't think Zico could lace Messi's shoes.

EDIT: Haha, I legit wrote that before reading your above response where you used the same expression.

I have Messi above Zico, but they are essentially in the same bracket - fantastic players who were classed as the best in the world at their respective times... but Zico's legacy when your remove currency and look at him 20+ years later is slightly tarnished by failing to win the big one.

This isn't a diss on Messi, it's not like tennis where you can count the truly elite all-time players on your hands.... the pool is so big, that you'll have great players not even making the Top 100 on an all time list... so if we are talking about THE greatest of all those greats then a World Cup win has to be in the bank. Messi has had a bit of a comfort zone - he's played in the same team with other great players. Maradona did it on different stages and with different teams and to me, that's important. Diego is #1 IMO. As much as I've joked a bit about Pele to wind up @mrzz, I'd still probably have him at #2.

World Cup is important broken... The whole world is watching - it's the biggest stage of them all.

Even without a WC, Messi would be a Top 5, maybe even as high as #3 and that's a compliment not a diss considering plenty of other great players with more international football kudos in the bank.

 

[britbox]

Also, it is beyond ridiculous, that a player who is by far the greatest club player in history is shrugged off as not on the level of other greats due to international competition, when club football is the one being played week in and week out (please, no grand slams vs. masters 1000 events analogy since the Champions League is surely no Masters 1000 event. it is a Grand Slam).

You can make a case for him being the greatest club player in history, but it's not nailed on, and he's definitely not by far, which pretty much assumes there are no real other contenders. Just because European football has the current ascendancy where the best of the best are plying their trade, it hasn't always been that way. In the late 70s and early 80s, South American football was better - their top teams generally beat the top European teams... in Pele's era, the same applied.

There are people around who still put Cristiano Ronaldo above him even in the current era... so it's not a conclusive fact that he's far and away the best in this era let alone the entire history of the sport. Unlike tennis, where the whole sport has globalised and technology has changed significantly making cross-era comparisons difficult... football has always been global, always had a massive player pool... you dismiss the greats of yesteryear too easily.