Maradona v Pele...

[britbox]

hahaha! I wish I could. But I was devastated. A team with Zico, Junior, Socrates, Falcao and Eder should have won!!

And then in the final I was forced to support Italy because I couldn't abide West Germany.

That 82 Brazilian team was something else. My favourite team to watch, probably ever...Zico was the best player in the world at the time. I think of Messi in the same terms. Great, great player but no World Cup... it will hurt Messi's legacy long term- 20 years down the track.

 

[mrzz]

Pelé won 3 world cups to Maradona´s 1.
Pelé scored 1284 (yes, 1284) goals to Maradona´s 345.

And, yes, Pelé played in fantastic squads, AND YET HE STOOD LIKE SOMETHING ELSE.

I repeat, the problem about making videos about Pelé is that is so much material that you can not chose what to put in...

But, ok, maybe Maradona is better. Maybe Courier is better than Federer too.

 

[Federberg]

^Lol! In fairness, as I've said before, it's impossible for me to judge Pele. I will say Maradona is the best player I've watched play a live football match. Those Brazilian teams were something special wouldn't you agree? It would be a travesty if the contribution of someone like Garincha was minimised to try to elevate Pele wouldn't you agree?

For my part, I consider having at least one world cup winners medal essential for the "greatest" debate. But does Pele having 3 medals make him better than Maradona? That's a tough one. If, perhaps, we were saying that Pele was carrying those teams then yes absolutely but I'm sure that's not your argument. At the risk of being insulting, the comparison of Pele vs Messi (or even Brazilian [the real] Ronaldo) would be a more accurate comparison (when looking at goals) because both players had more forward roles than Maradona. Of course, I don't believe Messi is worthy of comparison to Pele

 

[atttomole]

It is very hard to judge given the different conditions they played. Having watched a lot of Serie A for years, my pick is Maradona, with Ronaldo de Lima a close second. The thing is that in the Serie A the marking is very good, individually and collectively. I saw full video matches of Maradona and was in Italy when Ronaldo played at Inter. Another thing with the Serie A is that players may be forced to play different positions for tactical reasons. I remember Ronaldo sometimes played on the wings to stop some opposing wing back from overlapping, and even Maradona had to deal with that too.
They mark so tightly that sometimes there is no space to turn. Higuan scored 36gosls in Serie A last season, and that had not been done since 1934. That gives an idea of how tough Serie A is to score, when you consider that top players like Sivori, Mazzola, Maradona, van Batern, peak Gulit, Baggio, Ronaldo, Zico and Pkatini played there.
Even now in Italy they laugh when they hear that Messi and Cristiano score 40 goals or more per season.
I also feel that George Best is often excluded but I think he was as good as Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo de Lima and Messi. May be his peak was too short, even shorter than Ronaldo's peak.
For me the discussion would be who is the best between all the guys I mentioned above, not just Pele and Maradona.

 

[Federberg]

It is very hard to judge given the different conditions they play. Having watched a lot of Serie A for years, my pick is Maradona, with Ronaldo de Lima a close second. The thing is that in the Serie A the marking is very good, individually and collectively. I saw full video matches of Maradona and was in Italy when Ronaldo played at Inter. Another thing in the Serie A is that players may be forced to play different positions for tactical reasons. I remember Ronaldo sometimes played on the wings to stop some opposing wing back from overlapping, and even Maradona had to deal with that too.
They mark so tightly that sometimes there is no space to turn. Higuan scored 36gosls in Serie A last season, and that had been done since 1934. That gives an idea of how tough Serie A is to score, when you consider that top players like Sivori, Mazzola, Maradona, van Batern, peak Gulit, Baggio, Ronaldo, Zico and Pkatini played there.
Even now in Italy they laugh when they hear that Messi and Cristiano score 40 goals or more per season.
I also feel that George Best is often excluded but I think he was as good as Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo de Lima and Messi. May be his peak was too short, even shorter than Ronaldo' peak.
For me the discussion would be who is the best between all the guys I mentioned above, not just Pele and Maradona.

Good points. I would want to add Garincha to that list. Having Best and Messi in the list changes it from a conversation about the greatest to the best in my view. Neither of those guys can be part of the greatest discussion as neither have won anything from their country

 

[britbox]

It is very hard to judge given the different conditions they play. Having watched a lot of Serie A for years, my pick is Maradona, with Ronaldo de Lima a close second. The thing is that in the Serie A the marking is very good, individually and collectively. I saw full video matches of Maradona and was in Italy when Ronaldo played at Inter. Another thing in the Serie A is that players may be forced to play different positions for tactical reasons. I remember Ronaldo sometimes played on the wings to stop some opposing wing back from overlapping, and even Maradona had to deal with that too.
They mark so tightly that sometimes there is no space to turn. Higuan scored 36gosls in Serie A last season, and that had been done since 1934. That gives an idea of how tough Serie A is to score, when you consider that top players like Sivori, Mazzola, Maradona, van Batern, peak Gulit, Baggio, Ronaldo, Zico and Pkatini played there.
Even now in Italy they laugh when they hear that Messi and Cristiano score 40 goals or more per season.
I also feel that George Best is often excluded but I think he was as good as Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo de Lima and Messi. May be his peak was too short, even shorter than Ronaldo' peak.
For me the discussion would be who is the best between all the guys I mentioned above, not just Pele and Maradona.

I think George Best's lack of an international resume excludes him... admittedly he played for minnows Northern Ireland... but even so...

No consideration for Cruyff on your shortlist?

 

[atttomole]

I think George Best's lack of an international resume excludes him... admittedly he played for minnows Northern Ireland... but even so...

No consideration for Cruyff on your shortlist?

Cryuff should be there too, and even Zico. But I think at international level Zico also failed, but Brazil were transitioning from their old style, to the more tactical modern style.

 

[atttomole]

Good points. I would want to add Garincha to that list. Having Best and Messi in the list changes it from a conversation about the greatest to the best in my view. Neither of those guys can be part of the greatest discussion as neither have won anything from their country

I totally agree with you. Garrincha was super. Some former Brazilian colleagues of mine told me that Garrincha is ranked higher than Pele by many Brazilians, especially after his 1962 WC win.

 

[britbox]

Cryuff should be there too, and even Zico. But I think at international level Zico also failed, but Brazil were transitioning from their old style, to the more tactical modern style.

I don't know if you can say Zico failed at international level - at least no more than Messi. He scored 66 goals in 89 appearances for Brazil and they won the Copa America. Of course, the big mark against him as that he didn't win a World Cup... but then neither has Messi, or Cruyff for that matter. I would say that 82 Brazil team was the most mesmorising team I've seen - it was almost a crime that they didn't win it.

 

[atttomole]

I think Zico scored less than Pele, who heads the list at 76 goals, and Ronaldo at 64. Zico may be 3rd on the list if I am not mistaken.
Yes, the1982 team was amazing, but many analysts felt that things were changing with the game being more tactical. I remember from the early 90's people were complaining that Brazil had lost their flair, but it was clear that they were employing more defensive players in their midfield to counter the strength of the Europeans.
I read somewhere that in 1982 the Brazilians always played to win, even though a draw would have been enough, and that was one reason for their undoing against Italy in 82. They should have won the cup in 82. They now know that any opponent can beat them regardless of how much stronger they are on paper. They now know that they have to prepare a game based on the opponent.

 

[atttomole]

Yes. Messi has not been able to win even a Copa America despite coming so close at least twice. For some reason his magic seems to go away in the big matches for Argentina, and briefly retired from the national team after last year's Copa America.
I have not done much research on Cruyff but I know he did well for Barcelona but failed to win the WC in 1974.

 

[Federberg]

Yes. Messi has not been able to win even a Copa America despite coming so close at least twice. For some reason his magic seems to go away in the big matches for Argentina, and briefly retired from the national team after last year's Copa America.
I have not done much research on Cruyff but I know he did well for Barcelona but failed to win the WC in 1974.

Yes exactly. Surely part of greatness is executing on the biggest stage?

 

[atttomole]

Yes exactly. Surely part of greatness is executing on the biggest stage?

And Messi has consistently failed to shine at big tournaments. Hard to find a reason, because he seems to have all the skills needed to do well at big tournaments. He disappeared inexplicably against Chile in Copa America 2015 and 2016, but also WC 2014. He will have a chance again next year in Russia.

 

[Obsi]

PELE

 

[mrzz]

PELE

Don´t waste your time, Obsi, these people don´t know the difference between a football and a watermelon, let alone appreciate the greatness of a guy whose even the misses were genial... but, ok, maybe a guy whose one of the most important goals he scored was with his hands is in fact the greatest... that he is a better volleyball player I am sure.

 

[britbox]

@mrzz - Do you think Brazil could have won any of those world cups without Pele?

 

[Federberg]

@mrzz - Do you think Brazil could have won any of those world cups without Pele?

Awesome question!

 

[mrzz]

@mrzz - Do you think Brazil could have won any of those world cups without Pele?

Good question.

Preamble to the answer: Even if yes to them all, it would be with far less style.

1958: That would be the one with the higher risk of losing. He wasn´t a starter at first, but was decisive in some close matches. So in this case, yes, it could have won without him, but more importantly, it could have lost to.

1962: That is almost a non-question, since he was hunted down and only played one full match -- he was hurt in during the second.

1970: Ok, that´s the dream team. However, in the few competitive matches there (in fact, just one was competitive till the end, but others were competitive at least to a point), he was of fundamental importance. By the way, I wasn´t even born them, but I saw all VT´s of all the matches in their entirety. And he was surely the best player of that team. You need to be something out of this world to be the star in such a team...

 

[brokenshoelace]

This isn't even close. Maradona by a mile.

 

[britbox]

Good question.

Preamble to the answer: Even if yes to them all, it would be with far less style.

1958: That would be the one with the higher risk of losing. He wasn´t a starter at first, but was decisive in some close matches. So in this case, yes, it could have won without him, but more importantly, it could have lost to.

1962: That is almost a non-question, since he was hunted down and only played one full match -- he was hurt in during the second.

1970: Ok, that´s the dream team. However, in the few competitive matches there (in fact, just one was competitive till the end, but others were competitive at least to a point), he was of fundamental importance. By the way, I wasn´t even born them, but I saw all VT´s of all the matches in their entirety. And he was surely the best player of that team. You need to be something out of this world to be the star in such a team...

That's enough evidence to conclude Maradona should be above him. I call my next witness... @brokenshoelace ... Oops, I already see he has given evidence.

I hereby condemn Edson Arantes do Nascimento (aka Pele) to forever be in the shadow of Mr Diego Maradona.