Maradona v Pele...

[Obsi]

In 1958 Pele was 17. He scores some of the most beautiful goals ever being freaking 17!

 

[mrzz]

That's enough evidence to conclude Maradona should be above him. I call my next witness... @brokenshoelace ... Oops, I already see he has given evidence.

I hereby condemn Edson Arantes do Nascimento (aka Pele) to forever be in the shadow of Mr Diego Maradona.

You are assuming Argentina´s team in 86 was a bad one without him. It wasn´t. Argentina´s average position in World Cups is roughly the same with or without Maradona, just like Brazil. In 86 River Plate were the club World Champions, the year before Argentinos Juniors lost the final to Juventus in the penalty shootout. No Maradona in both cases (he played in Boca Juniors). Sometimes you guys in Europe (I know you live down under now) assume that one team is not great because the players don´t play in Europe. Most of the classic 1982 Brazilian never played in Europe -- and if I remember correctly at the time all team was playing in Brazil. In total I would guess only Falcão, Zico and Cerezo ever played abroad.

 

[britbox]

You are assuming Argentina´s team in 86 was a bad one without him. It wasn´t. Argentina´s average position in World Cups is roughly the same with or without Maradona, just like Brazil. In 86 River Plate were the club World Champions, the year before Argentinos Juniors lost the final to Juventus in the penalty shootout. No Maradona in both cases (he played in Boca Juniors). Sometimes you guys in Europe (I know you live down under now) assume that one team is not great because the players don´t play in Europe. Most of the classic 1982 Brazilian never played in Europe -- and if I remember correctly at the time all team was playing in Brazil. In total I would guess only Falcão, Zico and Cerezo ever played abroad.

Not me mate, I remember Flamengo tearing Liverpool a new one 3-0. I've loosely followed Flamengo from afar ever since... even though the Liverpool players didn't take it that seriously (on a serious drinking bender before by all accounts).. and Bruce Grobelaar clowning around between the sticks on (I think) his debut.

However, Maradona's exploits in Europe can't be ignored. Don't think Napoli would be winning Serie A titles without his influence.

 

[mrzz]

Don't think Napoli would be winning Serie A titles without his influence.

Maybe, but their line up was good, attack and mid field full with National team players, including 2 from Brazil. Careca was the best Brazilian striker of the late 80´s by far.

While Maradona won Serie A, Pelé won dozens of Brazilian titles with Santos, and 2 world titles against the European Power houses. Santos was a good team, but with very few (if any) other guys on the national team.

 

[Federberg]

For me personally I'm not saying Pele wasn't great. He was. My only objection is any attempt to dismiss Maradona. For me they are BOTH at the top of the pile.

 

[mrzz]

I will never dismiss Maradona - the guy was a freak. My "list" is:

1) Pelé

giant space

2) A lot of guys tied: Maradona, Zico, Platini, Beckenbauer, Romario, Cruyff, Zidane, Neto (a Brazilian, I guess you wouldn´t know). No Ronaldo´s here. Neither Messi.

I do not know where to put Garrincha. For a while I put him above even Pelé. Then I had him slightly bellow, then together. Thing is everything about him (either sports-wise or personally wise) is so different, that he is on a league of his own.

 

[Federberg]

I will never dismiss Maradona - the guy was a freak. My "list" is:

1) Pelé

giant space

2) A lot of guys tied: Maradona, Zico, Platini, Beckenbauer, Romario, Cruyff, Zidane, Neto (a Brazilian, I guess you wouldn´t know). No Ronaldo´s here. Neither Messi.

I do not know where to put Garrincha. For a while I put him above even Pelé. Then I had him slightly bellow, then together. Thing is everything about him (either sports-wise or personally wise) is so different, that he is on a league of his own.

Lol! Why am I not surprised. I would have something like this...

1, Pele & Maradona

2, Zico, Platini, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Zidane, Garincha, Brazilian Ronaldo

3, Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Matthaus, Van Basten, Romario, Best and quite a few others

I'm surprised you don't rate Brazilian Ronaldo. I don't think I've watched a player live (apart from maybe Maradona) where I've had such butterflies in my stomach. In his pomp, he's possibly the only footballer I've seen who was actually unstoppable. I guess you must be punishing for 1998? He redeemed himself in Japan

 

[mrzz]

I'm surprised you don't rate Brazilian Ronaldo.

He was fast and strong, for sure. Nothing special, IMO. I really don´t care how many goals the Barcelona and Real Madrid players strike against Gettafe or Valladolid... About 2002, nothing special again. Anyone would have scored most goals he scored on that world cup. Romário is light years ahead of him.

 

[Federberg]

He was fast and strong, for sure. Nothing special, IMO. I really don´t care how many goals the Barcelona and Real Madrid players strike against Gettafe or Valladolid... About 2002, nothing special again. Anyone would have scored most goals he scored on that world cup. Romário is light years ahead of him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Romario. He of the subtle toe poke. But at his best Ronaldo was a sight to see. And it wasn't just at Barcelona. He was phenomenal before and after that. The only other players I've watched who could run with the ball and maintain such close control are possibly Gareth Bale and George Weah, but not with the combination of power as well.

 

[mrzz]

Using a line of thought Britbox would like, the thing is that Brazilian football history would be basically the same with or without Ronaldo. But with Romario the story is different. Maybe you guys there don´t know, but the football rulers here (a bunch of idiots) did not like Romario. In the qualifiers for the 1994 world cup, he was left out (yes, that´s true) of the national team until the very last match. That year was the worst campaign of all time that we had, and we arrived to the last match (against Uruguay on Maracanã), needing at least a tie, but the team was so lousy everyone feared that would be the first time Brazil would not qualify for the World Cup. Not only the results were not coming, we were playing like sh!t. The pressure to call Romario became unbearable, and they finally called him. Needless to say that he won the match alone, scoring the two goals, and as we say here, the only thing missing was to do the corner kick and head the ball to the goal (hope the translation makes sense). At that time São Paulo FC was a helluva of team (winning the finals in Japan in 92 and 93), but simply no one of that team was on the national team.

Later in 1994 he basically won the world cup by himself, that was by far one of the worsts Brazilian teams ever. Sadly Romania, Argentina and Bulgaria -- for me the best teams on that edition -- could not win it all (yes, I am saying this even as a Brazilian).

Without Romario, Brazil would probably have one less World Cup, and maybe would have had the perfect record of going to all the World Cup editions broken at home.

 

[Federberg]

Using a line of thought Britbox would like, the thing is that Brazilian football history would be basically the same with or without Ronaldo. But with Romario the story is different. Maybe you guys there don´t know, but the football rulers here (a bunch of idiots) did not like Romario. In the qualifiers for the 1994 world cup, he was left out (yes, that´s true) of the national team until the very last match. That year was the worst campaign of all time that we had, and we arrived to the last match (against Uruguay on Maracanã), needing at least a tie, but the team was so lousy everyone feared that would be the first time Brazil would not qualify for the World Cup. Not only the results were not coming, we were playing like sh!t. The pressure to call Romario became unbearable, and they finally called him. Needless to say that he won the match alone, scoring the two goals, and as we say here, the only thing missing was to do the corner kick and head the ball to the goal (hope the translation makes sense). At that time São Paulo FC was a helluva of team (winning the finals in Japan in 92 and 93), but simply no one of that team was on the national team.

Later in 1994 he basically won the world cup by himself, that was by far one of the worsts Brazilian teams ever. Sadly Romania, Argentina and Bulgaria -- for me the best teams on that edition -- could not win it all (yes, I am saying this even as a Brazilian).

Without Romario, Brazil would probably have one less World Cup, and maybe would have had the perfect record of going to all the World Cup editions broken at home.

I think you do a huge disservice to Bebeto. He was clinical in the tournament

 

[mrzz]

I think you do a huge disservice to Bebeto. He was clinical in the tournament

He played ok in the tournament, and he was a good player, but I remember him in the qualifiers when Romário was not there. He vanished, would spend half an hour and you could not notice he was on the field.

 

[mrzz]

Ok, I wanted to keep out of the youtube video wars, and you guys don´t deserve it, but that´s fine. I will spare you of an interview with Menotti (Argentina´s coach in 78) saying that obviously Pelé is better than Maradona -- it is in Spanish, anyway -- but please check the video bellow, and mind three things:

1) There are countless scenes, one after the other -- no slow motion to kill time -- it all ends in goals, not just dribbling. It goes over and over and over.

2) Most of the scenes here you guys probably didn´t know... apart from some here and there, they´re not even the classics. As I said, it never ends.

3) Most scenes here are against national teams, big teams either here or abroad.

 

[Federberg]

Ok, I wanted to keep out of the youtube video wars, and you guys don´t deserve it, but that´s fine. I will spare you of an interview with Menotti (Argentina´s coach in 78) saying that obviously Pelé is better than Maradona -- it is in Spanish, anyway -- but please check the video bellow, and mind three things:

1) There are countless scenes, one after the other -- no slow motion to kill time -- it all ends in goals, not just dribbling. It goes over and over and over.

2) Most of the scenes here you guys probably didn´t know... apart from some here and there, they´re not even the classics. As I said, it never ends.

3) Most scenes here are against national teams, big teams either here or abroad.

lol! In 1978?? He was a baby! You've got to do better than that!

 

[mrzz]

lol! In 1978?? He was a baby! You've got to do better than that!

He was the coach in 1978, not said it in 1978!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAaRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHh

 

[Federberg]

He was the coach in 1978, not said it in 1978!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAaRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHh

Lol! Okay. That wasn't clear

Who knows his reasons for saying that. Maradona probably shagged his daughter!

 

[atttomole]

Ok, I wanted to keep out of the youtube video wars, and you guys don´t deserve it, but that´s fine. I will spare you of an interview with Menotti (Argentina´s coach in 78) saying that obviously Pelé is better than Maradona -- it is in Spanish, anyway -- but please check the video bellow, and mind three things:

1) There are countless scenes, one after the other -- no slow motion to kill time -- it all ends in goals, not just dribbling. It goes over and over and over.

2) Most of the scenes here you guys probably didn´t know... apart from some here and there, they´re not even the classics. As I said, it never ends.

3) Most scenes here are against national teams, big teams either here or abroad.

I have watched most of those videos. There is no doubt that Pele was a heck of a player. He had everything you could want from an attacking player, and I think he could have done very well even in the modern era. Arguably the most complete player ever. However, I think that the defending was not as good as it is now. If he had played in the modern era, he would have scored less than half the goals he scored during his time. Maybe in the Spanish league he would have scored a lot, like what Messi and Cristiano are doing, but he would have needed a great team to do that.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Lol! Why am I not surprised. I would have something like this...

1, Pele & Maradona

2, Zico, Platini, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Zidane, Garincha, Brazilian Ronaldo

3, Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Matthaus, Van Basten, Romario, Best and quite a few others

I'm surprised you don't rate Brazilian Ronaldo. I don't think I've watched a player live (apart from maybe Maradona) where I've had such butterflies in my stomach. In his pomp, he's possibly the only footballer I've seen who was actually unstoppable. I guess you must be punishing for 1998? He redeemed himself in Japan

Decent list, but Jesus Christ is Lionel Messi light-years ahead of the players you ranked in the second category. The only modern era player who would have come close to him would have been Brazilian Ronaldo had it not been for injuries.

Messi's numbers might be inflated due to playing for a Superteam, but nobody in the history of football has performed on a week-to-week basis like he does. On the club level, he's the best of all time by about 28292020 miles.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Oh wow, not only does @mrzz not rate Brazilian Ronaldo highly, he doesn't rate Messi highly either. Brazilians are insane

 

[brokenshoelace]

The only reason some are reluctant to call Messi what he is (the greatest player of all time) is because in Football, we tend to romanticize the past and inflate the legend of some players we grew up watching/hearing about.

And I really hope someone brings up the "never won a World Cup" argument so I can go on a rant...