Kyrgios's problem: skill, not on-court attitude

Moxie

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And neither do you. That's the whole point of this.
Actually, I think your real point was to change the subject because you don't want to address how you're justifying Nick's gamesmanship, while at the same time being the person who can't let go of a MTO that Nadal took in 2010.
 

Front242

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Actually, I think your real point was to change the subject because you don't want to address how you're justifying Nick's gamesmanship, while at the same time being the person who can't let go of a MTO that Nadal took in 2010.

I don't see it as gamesmanship at all as I already mentioned. Gamesmanship is outright blatant abuse of the rules to gain an unfair advantage often while in a losing position but as a Nadal fan I'm pretty sure you know that is. Arguing with the umpire isn't.
 

Moxie

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I don't see it as gamesmanship at all as I already mentioned. Gamesmanship is outright blatant abuse of the rules to gain an unfair advantage often while in a losing position but as a Nadal fan I'm pretty sure you know that is. Arguing with the umpire isn't.
Stalling play and being a distraction to your opponent is and that's what Nick spent a lot of time doing during that match. Which you argued wasn't gamesmanship because Nick wasn't doing it on purpose, as in he can't help himself. Well, then, if that were true, it wouldn't have mattered who the ump was.
 

Front242

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Stalling play and being a distraction to your opponent is and that's what Nick spent a lot of time doing during that match. Which you argued wasn't gamesmanship because Nick wasn't doing it on purpose, as in he can't help himself. Well, then, if that were true, it wouldn't have mattered who the ump was.

Yes, that is not gamesmanship. Fergus "potato with arms and legs" (to quote Nick) Murphy gave him a time violation which set him off. Who the hell gives a guy who plays as fast as Kyrgios does while serving a time violation, seriously? Like I said, he's a clown of an umpire. He wouldn't even have the balls to give Nadal one for taking 45 seconds between points mark my words and THAT was Nick's point.
 

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@Moxie, my original phrase was that "he would have behaved differently.". There is zero blame attribution in there. You probably remember that just after the match my opinion was that NK crossed the line of gamesmanship (and of unsportsmanlike conduct). I still have the exact same opinion. Also, back then I wrote that IMO NK was the one who created the situation.

I am only stating the obvious that the outcome would be different with a guy like Bernardes. To begin with Kyrgios could be punished with a game penalty (as he should, and it was quite likely that he would explode and end up being disqualified). Off course all of this is speculation, but frankly quite reasonable.

I really don't see the point in trying to find one big and only culprit. Honestly, for me it is obvious that:

1) It all started because of NK (as I said back then I don't think his original complaint is fair);
2) He had zero reason to complain about the treatment given to him in that match (the fact that other players in other matches might have more lenience than him -- which is the point he shifted to during the match -- is immaterial, as long as his opponent, on that match, got the same treatment as he did. Remember, first he complained that the umpire was starting the shot clock too fast, which is something at the umpire's discretion, and then he started saying that "this never happens to Nadal" or something like that. Even if he had a point about that (I won't go there), this is something he should complain about after the match, as it has no relation to that match in particular;
3) That the umpire could have been tougher on him -- but even if I think the umpire should have been tougher, it does not exonerate NK of any "guilt".

From my posts then and from this one now I think it is clear that I do not think that the umpire deserved the treatment he got. To begin with I don't think any umpire should be treated like that even if they made a bad call. In that case, the "bad call" I believe the umpire did was to be too lenient with him, and not the opposite.


Uffff..... I don't think I can be more clear than that...
 

Front242

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Actually, I think your real point was to change the subject because you don't want to address how you're justifying Nick's gamesmanship, while at the same time being the person who can't let go of a MTO that Nadal took in 2010.

For the record, it was 2 MTOs he took against Petzschner 'cos he was getting spanked by him. Aced left, right and centre and Petzschner was destroying him with his forehand. No other solution to the problem other than fake an injury TWICE and, no, I can't let go of it since he cheated his way through this match and went on to win the title which is pretty disgusting.
 

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Yes, that is not gamesmanship. Fergus "potato with arms and legs" (to quote Nick) Murphy gave him a time violation which set him off. Who the hell gives a guy who plays as fast as Kyrgios does while serving a time violation, seriously? Like I said, he's a clown of an umpire. He wouldn't even have the balls to give Nadal one for taking 45 seconds between points mark my words and THAT was Nick's point.

Front, the time violation was because NK was putting the overgrip on his racquet and thus stopped KK from serving. NK argued that he could have served anyway but frankly that is not reasonable. If he had a time violation for his own serve I agree it would be strange to say the least.
 

Front242

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Front, the time violation was because NK was putting the overgrip on his racquet and thus stopped KK from serving. NK argued that he could have served anyway but frankly that is not reasonable. If he had a time violation for his own serve I agree it would be strange to say the least.

Fair enough but the fact is, Fergus Murphy is still one of the many coward umpires who would never give Nadal a warning for time wasting. On a different note completely, have you seen this? Might be your cup of tea.

www.imdb.com/title/tt4669296
 

Moxie

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Yes, that is not gamesmanship. Fergus "potato with arms and legs" (to quote Nick) Murphy gave him a time violation which set him off. Who the hell gives a guy who plays as fast as Kyrgios does while serving a time violation, seriously? Like I said, he's a clown of an umpire. He wouldn't even have the balls to give Nadal one for taking 45 seconds between points mark my words and THAT was Nick's point.
Murphy didn't give him a time violation until very late in the match, well into his ranting. NK was complaining that he was calling the scores too quickly from early on, something that, as you mention, shouldn't be a problem for Nick, as he plays quickly, anyway. As I mentioned above, Murphy actually stopped the clock to allow Nick extra time to rant, rather than let things escalate. Also, Nick asked for a toilet break towards the end of the set, something that you would certainly have complained about if it were Nadal, for example, because it wasn't at the end of the set. Murphy told him there wasn't enough time, so Nick left the court anyway and smashed 2 racquets. He got fined for leaving the court without permission. Many here and the commies said he should have been docked a game. I don't see why he wasn't defaulted for leaving. In any case, I'm sure you didn't see the match and just keep railing about what you think happened.

I still don't understand why you're taking Nick's side, when Murphy was beyond fair to him, and I mean that literally. When someone behaves like that, they affect the other player's concentration, and I'm sure Nick well knows that.
 

Moxie

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@Moxie, my original phrase was that "he would have behaved differently.". There is zero blame attribution in there. You probably remember that just after the match my opinion was that NK crossed the line of gamesmanship (and of unsportsmanlike conduct). I still have the exact same opinion. Also, back then I wrote that IMO NK was the one who created the situation.

I am only stating the obvious that the outcome would be different with a guy like Bernardes. To begin with Kyrgios could be punished with a game penalty (as he should, and it was quite likely that he would explode and end up being disqualified). Off course all of this is speculation, but frankly quite reasonable.

I really don't see the point in trying to find one big and only culprit. Honestly, for me it is obvious that:

1) It all started because of NK (as I said back then I don't think his original complaint is fair);
2) He had zero reason to complain about the treatment given to him in that match (the fact that other players in other matches might have more lenience than him -- which is the point he shifted to during the match -- is immaterial, as long as his opponent, on that match, got the same treatment as he did. Remember, first he complained that the umpire was starting the shot clock too fast, which is something at the umpire's discretion, and then he started saying that "this never happens to Nadal" or something like that. Even if he had a point about that (I won't go there), this is something he should complain about after the match, as it has no relation to that match in particular;
3) That the umpire could have been tougher on him -- but even if I think the umpire should have been tougher, it does not exonerate NK of any "guilt".

From my posts then and from this one now I think it is clear that I do not think that the umpire deserved the treatment he got. To begin with I don't think any umpire should be treated like that even if they made a bad call. In that case, the "bad call" I believe the umpire did was to be too lenient with him, and not the opposite.


Uffff..... I don't think I can be more clear than that...
I know where you stand on how Nick behaved in that match. You just got in between Front and me, so I was giving you a hard time. :p One thing I read in the Guardian was that Kyrgios had a "history" with Fergus Murphy (no idea what it is) so perhaps with someone else Nick might not have started in the first place. That being what it is, I still say that no one can guess how a different umpire might have handled Nick in that match, but we all watching live thought that Murphy was doing a very good job remaining calm and trying to keep the situation from getting any more out of hand than it was. (The kind of restraint that, IMO, Carlos Ramos should have shown in the USO women's final last year. There was a lot of discussion in the media after that final as to the notion that men get a lot more leeway from umps for bad behavior on-court, and I think this is an example of that. Especially given the relative importance of each of the two matches.)
 

Front242

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Murphy didn't give him a time violation until very late in the match, well into his ranting. NK was complaining that he was calling the scores too quickly from early on, something that, as you mention, shouldn't be a problem for Nick, as he plays quickly, anyway. As I mentioned above, Murphy actually stopped the clock to allow Nick extra time to rant, rather than let things escalate. Also, Nick asked for a toilet break towards the end of the set, something that you would certainly have complained about if it were Nadal, for example, because it wasn't at the end of the set. Murphy told him there wasn't enough time, so Nick left the court anyway and smashed 2 racquets. He got fined for leaving the court without permission. Many here and the commies said he should have been docked a game. I don't see why he wasn't defaulted for leaving. In any case, I'm sure you didn't see the match and just keep railing about what you think happened.

I still don't understand why you're taking Nick's side, when Murphy was beyond fair to him, and I mean that literally. When someone behaves like that, they affect the other player's concentration, and I'm sure Nick well knows that.

I don't care who it is that's cheating, I don't like cheats and I'm not singling out Nadal here. Raonic is a dirty filthy cheat, for example. I'm not railing on about what I think happened, I'm saying 99% of the umpires are total cowards, which they are.

Tursunov said it well here. "Rafa will pick his ass for 30 seconds and you will watch it. You're not gonna say a word"

 

Moxie

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Front, it seems that you'll redirect this conversation in any way you can to avoid saying how you can justify backing Kyrgios in this instance. And give yourself another chance to slag Nadal.
 

Front242

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Front, it seems that you'll redirect this conversation in any way you can to avoid saying how you can justify backing Kyrgios in this instance. And give yourself another chance to slag Nadal.

I'm not backing Kyrgios at all and he definitely over stepped the mark. I firstly said that umpire is a clown and I stand by it and I also said he wouldn't have done this with a good umpire and I stand by that too. Finally, slagging Nadal isn't the thing (you just see it that way), the double standards is the thing that is being pointed out here but you only see it as slagging Nadal. Let's be real though, if this were Nadal and a certain umpire was giving him grief, he'd just get him banned from umpiring his matches. Nick doesn't have that luxury I guess. Yet more double standards. They have obviously gone out of their way to make an example of Nick with that stupid fine which was too much also.
 

Moxie

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I'm not backing Kyrgios at all and he definitely over stepped the mark. I firstly said that umpire is a clown and I stand by it and I also said he wouldn't have done this with a good umpire and I stand by that too. Finally, slagging Nadal isn't the thing (you just see it that way), the double standards is the thing that is being pointed out here but you only see it as slagging Nadal. Let's be real though, if this were Nadal and a certain umpire was giving him grief, he'd just get him banned from umpiring his matches. Nick doesn't have that luxury I guess. Yet more double standards. They have obviously gone out of their way to make an example of Nick with that stupid fine which was too much also.
Nadal ONCE asked for a break from Bernardes. I was actually wondering today if the ATP would have Nick and Murphy take a break from each other. Perhaps even Nick would ask for it, and it might be granted, so you don't know that he doesn't have that "luxury." Fergus Murphy is a Gold Badge umpire, so you can't see he's not the same standard as the best. I don't see why you think he's a "clown" or what he did wrong, unless you're just taking Kyrios' word for it, which I don't think you should. As I said to Mrzz, The Guardian says the two have a "history," though I don't know what that refers to. Yes, Nick was complaining of a double-standard, which you do seem to agree with, but I think Mrzz made a good point here in that, when we're talking about judgement calls, such as in this case, when to call the score, i.e., to start the shot clock, the most you can expect is for fairness to both players within one match.

As to "making an example" out of Nick, and the heftiness of the fine: 1.) how many players actually behave like this, such that an "example" must be set? and b.) if you want to debate the fine and the charges, they have been laid out above.

I have presumed that some of your support of Nick is that he doesn't like Nadal and mentioned him in his rant in this particular match, I'll admit that. But you have been unflagging and (tediously) repetitive in your outrage at Nadal's on-court behavior over the years, and so I found it surprising that Nick's time wasting and dubious bathroom break (which actually wasn't even allowed) didn't even lift a whisker for you. Nope, you went after the umpire. I thought you might recognize why someone might find a double-standard in what raises your outrage and what doesn't. I still think you'd do well to watch the whole match, if you can find it.
 

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The amount of arbitrary tap dancing Front is doing in this thread is verging on legendary. Kudos.
 
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mrzz

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but we all watching live thought that Murphy was doing a very good job remaining calm and trying to keep the situation from getting any more out of hand than it was. (The kind of restraint that, IMO, Carlos Ramos should have shown in the USO women's final last year.

Here we are in full disagreement. During the match I really thought Murphy made a mistake in not giving what would the third violation on Kyrgios when he broke the racquets (if I am not mistaken the Brazilian commentator said the same thing during the match). That is not a judgment call, the rules are clear and he subjectively chose not to enforce them. Ramos correctly applies the rules and he didn't. If you open this door, you open the door for subjectivity and then people can have a real case in saying that player A or B gets a better treatment, and this discredits the sport as a whole. Both Murphy and Ramos handled -- in a personal level - the situation well, the way they interacted with the players, what they said, etc. But Murphy failed to enforce the rules and Ramos didn't. One thing is to understand the emotions the players are going through, other is to let them do what they want. As we say in Brazil, this would like clapping for the madman dance... ("bater palmas para louco dançar").
 
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mrzz

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Fair enough but the fact is, Fergus Murphy is still one of the many coward umpires who would never give Nadal a warning for time wasting. On a different note completely, have you seen this? Might be your cup of tea.

www.imdb.com/title/tt4669296

Wow! Never heard of it. One way or another, I will surely like it... those guys are nuts!
 

Moxie

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Here we are in full disagreement. During the match I really thought Murphy made a mistake in not giving what would the third violation on Kyrgios when he broke the racquets (if I am not mistaken the Brazilian commentator said the same thing during the match). That is not a judgment call, the rules are clear and he subjectively chose not to enforce them. Ramos correctly applies the rules and he didn't. If you open this door, you open the door for subjectivity and then people can have a real case in saying that player A or B gets a better treatment, and this discredits the sport as a whole. Both Murphy and Ramos handled -- in a personal level - the situation well, the way they interacted with the players, what they said, etc. But Murphy failed to enforce the rules and Ramos didn't. One thing is to understand the emotions the players are going through, other is to let them do what they want. As we say in Brazil, this would like clapping for the madman dance... ("bater palmas para louco dançar").
Are we in full disagreement? Do you not think that it's an example, and there are many others, of men getting a pass on bad behavior whereas the women get no tolerance at all? As I said above: when Nick walked off the court when he wasn't allowed by the umpire, yes, he got a pass. He should have been docked a game or defaulted. You're perfectly happy to say that Ramos followed the rules...but aren't you ignoring how unfair that is, if a man gets a pass for hectoring/disrespecting the umpire, when woman doesn't? Especially in a much more important match? You say it opens the door to subjectivity, but that's exactly what we're arguing...the subjective decisions by the umpire on those exact days. The man got a pass and the woman didn't. Umpires decisions are always going to be, at some point, subjective. What Fergus Murphy did was give Nick Kyrgios every opportunity to stay in that match, no matter how foul his behavior, in an effort to let that match play out. Like it or not, that was his approach. Carlos Ramos decided to go with letter of the law against Serena Williams, in the final of a Major, with no feeling for how it might escalate things, or sense of history, and he let it get out of hand. I don't excuse Serena for her behavior, completely, but when I look at how Ramos dealt with her, compared to how Murphy gentled Kyrgios, I do shake my head.
 

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You guys are out here having a healthy a debate while I'm here chuckling at the idea of Front white knighting certain issues for years while being OK with far worse things just because they don't fall under his "gamesmanship" criteria.
 

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Are we in full disagreement? Do you not think that it's an example, and there are many others, of men getting a pass on bad behavior whereas the women get no tolerance at all? As I said above: when Nick walked off the court when he wasn't allowed by the umpire, yes, he got a pass. He should have been docked a game or defaulted. You're perfectly happy to say that Ramos followed the rules...but aren't you ignoring how unfair that is, if a man gets a pass for hectoring/disrespecting the umpire, when woman doesn't? Especially in a much more important match? You say it opens the door to subjectivity, but that's exactly what we're arguing...the subjective decisions by the umpire on those exact days. The man got a pass and the woman didn't. Umpires decisions are always going to be, at some point, subjective. What Fergus Murphy did was give Nick Kyrgios every opportunity to stay in that match, no matter how foul his behavior, in an effort to let that match play out. Like it or not, that was his approach. Carlos Ramos decided to go with letter of the law against Serena Williams, in the final of a Major, with no feeling for how it might escalate things, or sense of history, and he let it get out of hand. I don't excuse Serena for her behavior, completely, but when I look at how Ramos dealt with her, compared to how Murphy gentled Kyrgios, I do shake my head.

Well, we surely agree then that Murphy should have enforced the rules against Kyrgios (that is my point, or one of my points, since the beggining). But the thing is that they are different umpires. Can you be sure that Murphy would have treated Serena the way Ramos did, and that Ramos would have treated Kyrgios the way Murphy did? Maybe it is not a case of men and women, but a case of different umpires and different criteria (in this case one that enforced the rules and other that didn't).

What I really don't get about the Serena/USO thing is how people missed one very important thing: had Ramos gave her a pass, and then somehow she turned that match around, what about that for interfering with history? People would be able to say -- forever -- that the multi major winners have help from the officials. Wasn't that a match were Serena could have equaled the major record? I think maybe Ramos is exactly the only guy with sense of history in all this story...