Is Nadal still undefeated in GS when not injured?

[Kieran]

She spouts about old Hollywood lives and how the stars back then were controlled by the publicity agents, to give the public a false impression. So, when discussing Rafa's girlfriend - in the most excruciating part of this fiasco - she gets nowhere, so:

"Hardly the language of passion, you’ll agree, but at least from then on he had an official girlfriend, which made up for the fact that his sleeveless tops and bulging biceps reminded one inexorably of Freddie Mercury. But The Girlfriend remains a distant presence, never actually around."

Apart from the fact that "The Girlfriend" is always around, her tone is cynical - "an official girlfriend?" - and the Freddy Mercury insinuation is clear. I thought Rafa was cool there, deflecting her nosey grubbiness, and she decided that to get at him, she'd lower the tone...

 

[brokenshoelace]

http://anygivensurface.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/unfair-advantage-nadal-and-the-mto/

I stopped reading after it mentioned the Del Potro medical timeout. Now for some reason, everyone ignores the truth of what happened that match because most non Nadal fans kept repeating the same story enough times and people ended up believing it:

Nadal was up 6-5. Del Potro was serving. Score was 30-30. Nadal runs to his forehand side and bends a winner up the line to get set point. However, there was no vamos, no fist pump. Instead, he bent over, grabbed his foot, and winced in pain. He immediately looked at the umpire and asked for the trainer. He was struggling (at least as far as concentration goes) for the next few points and Del Potro ended up holding. Nadal takes the medical time out right before the tie-break. Del Potro actually goes ahead 3-0 in the tie-break (meaning his concentration looked fine and he didn't seem to have lots his rhythm) before Nadal went back and won it (on a Del Potro double fault, admittedly).

Now why would any player fake an injury when they're a set point up and kill their own momentum? And who in their right mind would take an injury time out right before a tie break?

This is what happens when a reputation sticks...

 

[Kieran]

http://anygivensurface.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/unfair-advantage-nadal-and-the-mto/

I stopped reading after it mentioned the Del Potro medical timeout. Now for some reason, everyone ignores the truth of what happened that match because most non Nadal fans kept repeating the same story enough times and people ended up believing it:

Nadal was up 6-5. Del Potro was serving. Score was 30-30. Nadal runs to his forehand side and bends a winner up the line to get set point. However, there was no vamos, no fist pump. Instead, he bent over, grabbed his foot, and winced in pain. He immediately looked at the umpire and asked for the trainer. He was struggling (at least as far as concentration goes) for the next few points and Del Potro ended up holding. Nadal takes the medical time out right before the tie-break. Del Potro actually goes ahead 3-0 in the tie-break (meaning his concentration looked fine and he didn't seem to have lots his rhythm) before Nadal went back and won it (on a Del Potro double fault, admittedly).

Now why would any player fake an injury when they're a set point up and kill their own momentum? And who in their right mind would take an injury time out right before a tie break?

This is what happens when a reputation sticks...

I mentioned this one earlier, and the MTO when he was 4-0 up in the 4th against Federer in 2007 at Wimbledon. Wasting our time. They have a charge sheet as long as your arm against Federer, but they won't accuse him. And nor should they.

But Rafa does exactly the same thing - and often when it least suits him - and he gets accused. Fact is, only one of their careers has had significant absences through injury. The lad has skipped majors through injury and played strapped and buckled. And he's accused of faking injuries... :s

 

[Mastoor]

It's funny title. As far as I remember last time he lost in a slam with no injury it was against Tsonga AO 2008.

Good thing he is coming back just couple of days after the final, as we suspected all along 27 stitches that Dr Fuentes had to apply to his wounded ego solved the problem.

 

[brokenshoelace]

It's funny title. As far as I remember last time he lost in a slam with no injury it was against Tsonga AO 2008.

Good thing he is coming back just couple of days after the final, as we suspected all along 27 stitches that Dr Fuentes had to apply to his wounded ego solved the problem.

Judging by how butt-hurt you seem to be about all of this, I wonder how many stitches your....ego needed as well.

 

[Moxie]

http://anygivensurface.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/unfair-advantage-nadal-and-the-mto/

I gave up after the second sentence:

"It’s hard to speak out against Rafael Nadal. Lynn Barber found out just how hard when she wrote about the world number one in a negative light."

You never read that Lynn Barber article, did you? That's an example of why journalism is a low profession... :nono

I didn't realize we'd sunk so low. Lynn Barber is notoriously about herself. My UK friends have told me that a point-of-pride is getting trashed by her. That's her schtick. And Front's link is a blog. Means no more than what we discuss here, i.e., opinion.

 

[Front242]

Same as the opinion of those watching the matches but nice that many others agree.

 

[StantheMan]

It's funny title. As far as I remember last time he lost in a slam with no injury it was against Tsonga AO 2008.

Good thing he is coming back just couple of days after the final, as we suspected all along 27 stitches that Dr Fuentes had to apply to his wounded ego solved the problem.

Judging by how butt-hurt you seem to be about all of this, I wonder how many stitches your....ego needed as well.

Why are all Nadul fans obssessed about getting butt-hurt?

 

[Moxie]

http://anygivensurface.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/unfair-advantage-nadal-and-the-mto/

I stopped reading after it mentioned the Del Potro medical timeout. Now for some reason, everyone ignores the truth of what happened that match because most non Nadal fans kept repeating the same story enough times and people ended up believing it:

Nadal was up 6-5. Del Potro was serving. Score was 30-30. Nadal runs to his forehand side and bends a winner up the line to get set point. However, there was no vamos, no fist pump. Instead, he bent over, grabbed his foot, and winced in pain. He immediately looked at the umpire and asked for the trainer. He was struggling (at least as far as concentration goes) for the next few points and Del Potro ended up holding. Nadal takes the medical time out right before the tie-break. Del Potro actually goes ahead 3-0 in the tie-break (meaning his concentration looked fine and he didn't seem to have lots his rhythm) before Nadal went back and won it (on a Del Potro double fault, admittedly).

Now why would any player fake an injury when they're a set point up and kill their own momentum? And who in their right mind would take an injury time out right before a tie break?

This is what happens when a reputation sticks...

I will offer the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lMpkxWxrD8 The important part is around minute 10.

I agree. This is what happens when people push hard enough to denigrate a player. A reputation does stick, however unfair. There has been a campaign to take down Nadal in terms of his sportsmanship, when it became clear that the Boss couldn't take him down in terms of his tennis.

 

[Front242]

Moxie, the timeout took 9, yes 9 minutes. That's 3 times the allowable time for a MTO. Carlos Ramos and Rafa should be ashamed of themselves. He ran pretty ok after that 9 minute break too the rest of the match...

 

[Front242]

At least if they stuck to 3 minutes Del Potro wouldn't have been getting cold and losing all his adrenaline but 9 minutes is extracting the urine, polite way of saying taking the pi$$.

 

[Moxie]

Moxie, the timeout took 9, yes 9 minutes. That's 3 times the allowable time for a MTO. Carlos Ramos and Rafa should be ashamed of themselves. He ran pretty ok after that 9 minute break too the rest of the match...

Actually, I was taking notes, since I had to write up a news post for TF. My notes have 7 minutes. Does that matter? What is the limit?

 

[Front242]

7 or 9, whatever. It's 3 minutes allowable. So it's still totally unfair on Del Potro. He took 6 minutes in the Hamburg 2008 final for a thigh rubdown before Federer was serving for the set which even Broken stated he believes was a bogus MTO. Needless to say Fed lost the set...and the match. Page 33.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/107082/107082.pdf

 

[Moxie]

7 or 9, whatever. It's 3 minutes allowable. So it's still totally unfair on Del Potro. He took 6 minutes in the Hamburg 2008 final for a thigh rubdown before Federer was serving for the set which even Broken stated he believes was a bogus MTO. Needless to say Fed lost the set...and the match. Page 33.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/107082/107082.pdf

You're losing the plot. Are we talking about the Wawrinka match, or the Del Potro one. As evidenced by the above, this is exactly why the anti-Nadal faction is moving the pieces unfairly around the board. The MTO in the DelPotro match was with all the momentum in Nadal's direction. And how are we supposed to dispute the MTO between the Wawrinka final and a long-ago Hamburg match. I'm sorry, but I think you people just keep moving the goal posts in your favor.

 

[Front242]

7 or 9, whatever. It's 3 minutes allowable. So it's still totally unfair on Del Potro. He took 6 minutes in the Hamburg 2008 final for a thigh rubdown before Federer was serving for the set which even Broken stated he believes was a bogus MTO. Needless to say Fed lost the set...and the match. Page 33.

http://www.itftennis.com/media/107082/107082.pdf

You're losing the plot. Are we talking about the Wawrinka match, or the Del Potro one. As evidenced by the above, this is exactly why the anti-Nadal faction is moving the pieces unfairly around the board. The MTO in the DelPotro match was with all the momentum in Nadal's direction. And how are we supposed to dispute the MTO between the Wawrinka final and a long-ago Hamburg match. I'm sorry, but I think you people just keep moving the goal posts in your favor.

The Del Potro match. Not losing any plot. Even for a legit MTO it shouldn't go over the allowable time or you should forfeit a game. It's Nadal that moves goal posts in his favour. That MTO in Hamburg 2008 was dodgy as hell. A 6 minute thigh rubdown before your opponent serves for the set. How convenient and also well over the amount of time a thigh rubdown should take, not to mention the allowable limit by the ITF rules. Needless to say he was not injured at that time as this was just before he went on a tear at RG 2008. The intention (and it worked as Fed lost that set from a 5-2 lead and the match) was to completely crush Federer's confidence going in to RG 2008.

I'm not disputing the Wawrinka MTO at all. Thought that was clear. Rafa obviously had movement issues the rest of the match and was serving like Errani. But in Hamburg 2008 there was absolutely nothing wrong with his movement before or after the MTO. Same in Wimbledon 2010 against Haase and Petzschner. Just pointing out that while the one against Stan was legit, there are many dubious cases in his past, and as pointed out, Broken agrees that Hamburg one seemed to be a bogus MTO.

Re that Del Potro one, the issue isn't that Nadal had momentum, which he did, it's the absurd amount of time poor Del Potro had to wait. 7 or 9 minutes as we said earlier. Muscles getting cold, adrenaline gone. Sure he got to level at 6-6 still in the TB, but he may have won it if not for the overlong wait. I actually recall it being 9 mins, but whatever. Either way, that's way over the allowable limit and it's mainly Carlos Ramos' fault but Nadal clearly knows it wasn't fair either. Needless to say, he was running fine and cruised the rest of that match...

 

[Moxie]

^I'll look back at the Hamburg. But you should concede that the one at Wimbledon v. Del Potro doesn't count. Nadal was the one with momentum. He worried about his ankle. He asked for the trainer. What makes me crazy is that every MTO or loss to injury bleeds into every other. They are not all equal. Folks have been asking us Nadal fans to 'see' what they see, but, at the same time, people should realize that sometimes an injury results in a loss. Or an injury is an injury. It'd be funny and surprising if only Nadal fans were blinded by prejudice. The rest of you should ask yourselves what you're looking for.

 

[Front242]

I dunno how many times I've walked along the road and my ankle gave way or I heard my knee pop or my knee twisted around but it didn't make me rush off to see the doctor as it wasn't sore. Even if he's just the world's biggest drama queen (and he's right up there) that still doesn't justify making your opponent wait 7-9 minutes just 'cos you're a drama queen moaning and worrying about nothing. And nothing is what it was 'cos he stormed on through that match all the way to the final. And Del Potro was playing unreal so for Nadal to win he had to also be playing extremely well so it can't have really been much of injury now can it. I'll tell you what we're looking for. Fairness and sportsmanship. Two qualities sadly lacking in that man's repertoire over the years.

 

[Moxie]

And Del Potro was playing unreal so for Nadal to win he had to also be playing extremely well so it can't have really been much of injury now can it. I'll tell you what we're looking for. Fairness and sportsmanship. Two qualities sadly lacking in that man's repertoire over the years.

Yes, Del Potro was playing well. Nadal had an injury worry. No, that didn't make the difference in the match. Moving on.

If we care about these athletes, we should care that they stay healthy for our amusement. I would consider that fair. You, and plenty others around here have decided what they think about Nadal and his injuries, evidence be damned. He has provided a lot of great tennis for our entertainment, at the expense of his body. As do all the athletes. I think there has been a lot of crassness over the last few days, in trying to make a case that Nadal, specifically, would put gamesmanship over sportsmanship. Everyone has their favorite. But maybe we should go back to zero for a second: all of these players are human beings. They've put a great deal of effort into what they do. When we endeavor to discredit them, we might ask ourselves why, and consider if that's actually sportsmanlike, either.

 

[Front242]

And they all lived happily ever after, right? :nono What he's done in the past is the epitome of gamesmanship and taking bad sportsmanship to a whole new level, sorry. I still feel sorry for Petzschner to this day as I firmly believe the way he was playing that day in Wimbledon 2010 and being up 2 sets to 1 before all those dubious MTOs he was going to win that match. Haase in the round before too had a good shot at a win before similar proceedings. Petzschner's career took a huge nosedive after that but who knows how he'd be playing if he'd been allowed to play on without any undue stoppages while fired up, hitting aces and mad forehands all over the place. It's a joke, sorry.

I do of course hope players stay injury free but I've no idea what that's supposedly got to do with taking a break for some hidden ailment that seemingly doesn't cause any difference whatsoever to how he runs before or after the MTOs. Oh and toilet breaks before your opponent serves for the match...very cool and sporting I'm sure you'll agree.

Sorry, there's no defense for his actions there. He knew exactly what he was doing there (toilet break at Indian Wells 2012) but thankfully Roger served out the match so that cunning plan didn't work out as he'd hoped. But MTOs have worked in his favour many times and, no, it's not sporting behaviour from a world number 1 or 2. Kinda fitting to be number 2 actually when that's what he takes before his opponent serves out the match. A load of number 2 is what that is.

Btw, he sure does put a lot of effort into what he does, namely finding any means necessary to win, bending every rule in the book. Stalling at the start of matches, between service points, timeouts that seem completely unjustified save for a select few, toilet breaks before his opponent serves to close out a match. Clearly a lot of time and effort does go into trying to win even when he's being soundly beaten.

 

[Moxie]

^Yet again…it's the same two examples from the 2010 Wimbledon. And I'm not saying that they couldn't be looked askance at, but it's always the same 2 examples. And from there, a man's reputation is ruined? As has been pointed out, that was a tournament that Nadal couldn't play the year before, due to injury. Additionally, they were 5-set matches, and he'd just won the previous FO, which is a notoriously strenuous event. It seems plausible that he was actually feeling the effects in those matches. If you're not looking for gamesmanship to serve your own purposes, you might see that there was something reasonable in there. You don't have to buy my argument, but I think it would also be fair if the detractors would stop saying there is no other side.

Nadal losing at the AO this year seems to have made him fair game for a great deal of piling on. He hurt his back, and most of us have not pretended that that's why he lost. However, it seems that a lot of folks are forgetting that, and making much of "MTOs", injury and excuses. Conflating these things into a theory about Nadal and his character is unfair. The character of the man is much more demonstrated by the fact that he didn't retire. As it was by the way he reacted to Federer's heartbreak at not getting the #14 in AO in '09. Trying to make Nadal a poor sport is as much about trying to diminish him because of his record against Federer as it is anything else.